HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/6/2017 at 5:17 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

You also say, and I quote, " So I'm not sure we should be spending time debating those two inconsistencies on this particular thread. They probably deserve their own threads. "

I disagree! Debating the inconsistences between Adams/Baker and Shelley/Lovelady is very important to the matter at hand. If we look at it as (fundamentally) the testimonies of Adams & Baker (AB) are in sync, and (fundamentally) the testimonies of Shelley & Lovelady (SL) are in sync, then in overly simple terms we are left with the following 4 possibilities;

Let me put it this way, Alistair. I don't want to get bogged down at the moment on finding some way to reconcile Victoria Adam's timeline with Shelley's and Lovelady's timeline. The reason is because I don't believe it can be done. And I don't want to fill this thread with endless analysis.

I have no problem with people trying to reconcile Adams with Shelley/Lovelady. But please do it on a thread dedicated to that pursuit.

When I created this thread, I did it with the belief and understanding that Shelley's/Lovelady's testimonies contradicted Adam's testimony irreconcilably. And that therefore her testimony is problematic.

The purpose of this thread is to find unknown difficulties, not those stated in the first post. (EDIT: I realize now that I didn't state the Victoria Adams difficulty in the fist post. I should have. Sorry.)

I will edit the first post to make that clear.

Thanks.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Alistair Briggs]

Ok Sandy, I think I understand...

... and apologies if you think I'm being somewhat obtuse here...

... but for clarification...

Instead of looking for 'difficulties' between Shelley's/Lovelady's testimony and Adams testimony, you want this thread to be about either;

1.'unknown difficulties' between Shelley's testimony and Lovelady's testimony?  (but it can't be that as you have already said, and I quote; " Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies agree with one another,")
2. 'unknown difficulties' with either Shelley's testimony and Lovelady's testimony? (but it can't be that either as you have already said, and I quote; " there are no difficulties with the WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady")

Genuinely, I am not trying to be obtuse, I just think I don't understand what you are meaning...

I will re-post here something I posted earlier in the thread, that I think is pertinent!

... you have (in your original post) posited a timeline from your reading of the testimony of both Shelley and Lovelady and (in a later comment) have asked the question of how viable it is, yet at the same time you asked that question you asked for two other things to be taken as read 1) Assume that Shelley and Lovelady's statements and testimonies are essentially correct and 2) If their testimonies significantly contradict the testimonies of others, the others are to be considered incorrect. Can you see the problem there?

How can the validity of something be tested if we are to consider anything that contradicts it as being incorrect to start with?...

In other words, the validity of your posited timeline must be deemed 100% correct and accurate because we have been disallowed from testing it against others testimony. With the rules you set in place there can be no discussion on the validity of it, in fact there can be no discussion on it at all.

Regards

[Sandy Larsen]

16 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

I still maintain that Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker are all telling the truth -- it is only the traditional MISREADING of their WC testimony that is in error.

You say we can't have it BOTH ways -- but that presumes that you are READING them correctly.

I maintain that you, like Alistair and Robert, are MISREADING the testimony of Vickie Adams, and ignoring that Belin is speaking about a NORTH window and a SOUTH window, even though he (deliberately) confuses Vickie by saying, "the window."

Once we realize that Vickie Adams didn't start moving from the SOUTH window (from which she watched the JFK motorcade) to the NORTH window (which is the window near the stairs) until after 30 seconds -- then we can orient the truth.

There is a window at the SOUTH and a window at the NORTH.   That is literally true.   The stairs are near the NORTH window.  Vickie was watching the JFK motorcade from the SOUTH window.

When Belin asked Vickie "how long" it would take her to go from "the window" to the first floor, she said "less than one minute."

That is ONLY true if Vickie understood "the window" to mean the NORTH window, which is by the stairs.

It is utterly IMPOSSIBLE for anybody to go from the 4th floor SOUTH window to the NORTH window and THEN down the stairs to the 1st floor in "less than one minute."

So, tradition has simply MISREAD Vickie Adams.  That solves the case.  Shelley and Lovelady were telling the truth, and so was Vickie Adams.   We CAN have it BOTH WAYS.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo  

 

Paul,

In order for this thread to move forward, I can see that I am going to have to narrow its scope down.

Actually, I thought I had it narrowed it down from the beginning. But I see now that I neglected to write what I knew about Victoria Adams testimony. I have since added that to the first post.

My premise is that Shelley and Lovelady were basically telling the truth in their testimonies. The main feature of their testimonies was saying that it was 3 minutes after the shooting before Gloria Calvery arrived at the TSBD. And that Truly and Baker entered the TSBD shortly after that.

As part of my premise, I am willing to allow a generous amount of variability in the witnesses' perceived lapses of time. Specifically:

• From shooting to Gloria Calvery's arrival:  Testified = 3 minutes, Range = 1.5 to 6 minutes
• From Calvery's arrival to Truly/Baker entering TSBD:  Testified = 1.5 minutes, Range = 0.8 to 3 minutes
• From Truly/Baker entering TSBD to Shelley/Lovelady entering TSBD:  Testified = 2.5 minutes, Range = 1.8 to 4 minutes

Calculating the pertinent times from these, we have the following ranges:

• From shooting to Truly/Baker entering TSBD:             2.3 to 9 minutes
• From shooting to Shelley/Lovelady entering TSBD:    4.1 to 13 minutes

As for Victoria Adams::

• From shooting to Adams' arrival at bottom of stairs:    1 to 2.5 minutes

For Victoria Adams' timing I'm relying upon what I've read and what Alistair has said. I need to re-read Adam's text more carefully myself before accepting the range I've put here.

But accepting for the moment what I have here, even at the extremes we can see that Victoria would have arrived at the bottom of the stairs (4.1 - 2.5) = 1.6 minutes before Shelley and Lovelady arrived.

So, at least for now, I want everybody to refrain from debating Victoria Adam's issue in this thread. Feel free to open a new thread for debating it.

Paul, you say that Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker were all telling the truth. Well, that may very well seem to be the case if one massages the timing of each witness sufficiently. But, unlike you, I believe that most people can tell the difference between 30 seconds and 2.5 minutes.

If you want to discuss the possibility of all these people telling the truth, please do so on another thread. Because this thread sees (at least) two irreconcilable contradictions in timing that you don't.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Hey everybody,

I have convenient links to all the witness affidavits, interviews, and testimonies at the bottom of Post #1.

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Far more important than the Adams-Truly-Baker challenge to the TIMING of the Shelley-Lovelady testimony -- is the flat-out contradiction of the Shelley-Lovelady testimony by FBI agent James Bookhout. 

This is because Bookhout claims that LHO himself claimed that he spoke with Bill Shelley at the front entrance of the TSBD in the minutes after the JFK shooting.

Not true, unless one wants to interpret Bookhout's report that way. See the transcript below.

  Yet nobody at the TSBD entrance testified that they saw LHO anywhere near the front entrance of the TSBD.  Not Shelley; not Lovelady; not anybody.

This is serious.  Ultimately, FBI agent James Bookhout (along with all those in the LHO interrogation group along with Captain Will Fritz) is accusing Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady of LYING. 

If we really want to defend the honesty of Shelley-Lovelady, we must defend them from James Bookhout and his gang. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Bookhout's interrogation report on Oswald:

Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Ok Sandy, I think I understand...

... and apologies if you think I'm being somewhat obtuse here...

... but for clarification...

Instead of looking for 'difficulties' between Shelley's/Lovelady's testimony and Adams testimony, you want this thread to be about either;

1.'unknown difficulties' between Shelley's testimony and Lovelady's testimony?  (but it can't be that as you have already said, and I quote; " Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies agree with one another,")
2. 'unknown difficulties' with either Shelley's testimony and Lovelady's testimony? (but it can't be that either as you have already said, and I quote; " there are no difficulties with the WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady")

Genuinely, I am not trying to be obtuse, I just think I don't understand what you are meaning...

I will re-post here something I posted earlier in the thread, that I think is pertinent!

... you have (in your original post) posited a timeline from your reading of the testimony of both Shelley and Lovelady and (in a later comment) have asked the question of how viable it is, yet at the same time you asked that question you asked for two other things to be taken as read 1) Assume that Shelley and Lovelady's statements and testimonies are essentially correct and 2) If their testimonies significantly contradict the testimonies of others, the others are to be considered incorrect. Can you see the problem there?

How can the validity of something be tested if we are to consider anything that contradicts it as being incorrect to start with?...

In other words, the validity of your posited timeline must be deemed 100% correct and accurate because we have been disallowed from testing it against others testimony. With the rules you set in place there can be no discussion on the validity of it, in fact there can be no discussion on it at all.

Regards

 

Alistair,

While it is true that I said that Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies essentially agree with each other, what I didn't say is that I was sure of it. I may have made mistakes.

Somewhere I wrote that I'd like to be made aware of any significant disagreements between the two testimonies. And also any self-contradictions in Shelley's testimonies alone, or Lovelady's testimonies alone.

I am already aware of one such self-contradiction. In Shelley's first-day affidavit he says that he went to the little old island, and subsequently encountered Gloria Calvery. In his WC testimony he said he encountered Gloria Calvery before leaving the steps. I plan to address that issue at some point, but right now I'm interested in other conflicts.

Right now I'm more interested in conflicts between Shelley's/Lovelady's testimonies and other people's testimonies. Or other evidence. There ARE other people's testimonies to consider here, not just Victoria Adams' and Officer Baker's.

I want to discover difficulties we don't already know about.

At least for now.

However, if you feel that you can wrap up the Victoria Adams thing in just a few pages, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

 

[Alistair Briggs]

No worries Sandy.

Currently I am working on something from a different angle (which I am, for the moment limiting to just looking at the WC testimony) Basically I am looking individually at the testimony of Lovelady, Shelley and Adams (to start with, but plan to widen my scope thereafter) and trying to analyse the questioning and the responses to see what conclusions (if any) can be drawn from it with regards to both the interviewer and the interviewee. I don't know where it will lead, or what conclusions I will finally get though... but I do know it's going to take me a long, long time.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

No worries Sandy.

Currently I am working on something from a different angle (which I am, for the moment limiting to just looking at the WC testimony) Basically I am looking individually at the testimony of Lovelady, Shelley and Adams (to start with, but plan to widen my scope thereafter) and trying to analyse the questioning and the responses to see what conclusions (if any) can be drawn from it with regards to both the interviewer and the interviewee. I don't know where it will lead, or what conclusions I will finally get though... but I do know it's going to take me a long, long time.

 

Sounds interesting. I've never thought about trying to gather information from that angle. I'll be interested in hearing what you come up with.

[Paul Trejo]

13 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I agree that people do a very poor job of estimating time! But surely there has to be some limit to just how poor someone's timing could be in the circumstances.

Can a difference between a testified 5 minutes and a posited 30 minutes really be justified as being a very poor job of estimating time?

*For actual clarity, as per your posited timeline above you have put the re-entering of the building at 22 minutes.

Presumable it is the same very poor job of timing on Adams part that has led to you positing that it was 10 minutes after the shots that she had got to the position of seeing Shelley/Lovelady, despite her words in her testimony pointing to that time period being approx. 2 minutes... As per her testimony that would leave another approx. 3 minutes to complete the rest of what she claimed to do from that point until re-entering the building.

As per what her testimony 'reads' 2 minutes + 3 minutes = 5 minutes
As per the timeline you are positing 10 minutes + 12 minutes = 22 minutes

That is a huge diifference! As I said earlier, I agree that people do a very poor job of estimating time... but there has to be a limit.

And yet you are saying that that very poor timing doesn't seem to affect Shelley and Lovelady, you are saying that they testified to it being 10 minutes (Sandy's original posited timeline puts it at 7 minutes btw) and you are claiming that as an exact precise time on their part and to reconcile that with Adams testimony you are having to add in an extra 8 minutes to her testified movements which you put down to either a very poor job of timing or sloppy questioning.

Happy to be corrected on that if you feel I am misunderstanding your point of view, Paul?

Regards

Alistair,

There is indeed a major problem with the "5 minutes" estimate of Vickie Adams, and my estimate of "30 minutes."

I would first admit that my estimate is very approximate, and also generous, based on what I myself might take in a similar circumstance of being surrounded by people during the assassination of a US President.   My first impulse would be to talk, talk, talk with the people around me.

Now, when people talk intently, we tend to let the time pass by without realizing how much time has passed.  That is too common to deny.

My estimate is based on 9 steps: (1) Vickie was surrounded by people on the 4th floor near the South window looking outward and talking about the JFK crisis; (2) Vickie was with Sandra Styles at the North window, looking outward, and talking about the JFK crisis; (3) Vickie and Sandra met Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor, and talked about the JFK crisis; (4) Vickie and Sandra walked to the Grassy Knoll parking lot, met a DPD officer and talked about the JFK crisis; (5) Vickie and Sandra walked to the front of the TSBD, and spoke with Joe Molina and Avery Davis about the JFK crisis; (6) Vickie walked over to the corner of Houston and Elm to listen to a DPD police report about the JFK crisis; (7) Vickie negotiated with a DPD officer at the front door of the TSBD, to be admitted back inside; (8) Vickie walked up to the 2nd floor, and spoke with more TSBD employees about the JFK crisis; (9) Vickie tried to take an elevator with two plainclothesmen, but ended up walking back up to her 4th floor office with them. 

Now -- just by common sense alone, there is no possible way that these 9 steps took "less than 5 minutes."  Just the walking itself, from the 4th floor, to the Grassy Knoll parking lot, to the corner of Houston and Elm, back to the 2nd floor, and back to the 4th floor, would take 10 minutes ALL BY ITSELF.   

Like many people here, I have been to Dallas TSBD, and I have walked this walk.

Now -- the big question is how long Vickie Adams TALKED to each of these groups.  In her mind, it was a blur, apparently, so it took little or NO TIME AT ALL.  Time is often compressed during a crisis, and seems like NO TIME.   The JFK crisis itself could explain part of Vickie's confusion.

Perhaps it wasn't as much as 30 minutes -- that is probably a maximum.  But look at those 9 steps again, Alistair, and put yourself in her place.  Have you been to the TSBD building?  Isn't Vickie's estimate of 5 minutes literally absurd?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 7, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul, your response is appreciated, genuinely. I offer up the following as something of a rebuttal moreso for the 'benefit' of anyone who may be reading. Regards

4 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

My estimate is based on these factors: (1) Vickie was surrounded by people on the 4th floor near the South window looking outward and talking about the JFK crisis; (2) Vickie was with Sandra Styles at the North window, looking outward, and talking about the JFK crisis; (3) Vickie and Sandra met Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor, and talked about the JFK crisis; (4) Vickie and Sandra walked to the Grassy Knoll parking lot, met a DPD officer and talked about the JFK crisis; (5) Vickie and Sandra walked to the front of the TSBD, and spoke with Joe Molina and Avery Smith about the JFK crisis; (6) Vickie walked over to the corner of Houston and Elm to listen to a DPD police report about the JFK crisis; (7) Vickie negotiated with a DPD officer at the front door of the TSBD, to be admitted back inside; (8) Vickie walked up to the 2nd floor, and spoke with more TSBD employees about the JFK crisis; (9) Vickie tried to take an elevator with two plainclothesman, but ended up walking back up to her 4th floor office with them. 

Now -- just by common sense alone, there is no possible way that these 9 steps took "less than 5 minutes."  Just the walking itself, from the 4th floor, to the Grassy Knoll parking lot, to the corner of Houston and Elm, back to the 2nd floor, and back to the 4th floor, would take 10 minutes ALL BY ITSELF.   

 

I agree that there is no possible way that those 9 steps took 'less than 5 minutes.", and I accept that they would take 10 minutes all by itself.

The thing is though, when Vickie Adams mentions the 'less than 5 minutes' she isn't saying that's how long it took to complete those 9 steps you have set out!

Here is the pertinent bit of her testimony;

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.
Mr. BELIN - Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Returned to the building must either mean to just before your step 7 or just after your step 7.

Or looking at it from the other way round then. You have said the completion of all 9 steps would take 10 minutes - the question then becomes how long would your steps 8 & 9 have taken and thus that taken away from 10 minutes would leave the time (approx.) for steps 1 to 7. So how long would it have taken from the point of re-entering the building to walking up to the 2nd floor, then spending some time talking with more TSBD employees, then trying to take an elevator (which presumably would take a bit of time), before then deciding to walk up to the 4th floor office.

If we take your wording of the 9 steps you mention as being fair and accurate, then it would be very sensible to say that, whilst steps 1-9 inclusive would/could take 10 minutes, steps 1-7 would take a longer period than steps 8 - 9.

However, is your wording of the 9 steps you mention fair and accurate?

Lets compare them to what can actually be found in Adams testimony (Paul's 9 steps in BLUE for emphasis, and pertinent part of Adams testimony c & p directly from here... and shown in Italics,  and my own comments in normal text)

(1) Vickie was surrounded by people on the 4th floor near the South window looking outward and talking about the JFK crisis;

Mr. BELIN - Were you standing with anyone
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - With whom?
Miss ADAMS - I was standing with Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy May Garner.

Can 3 other people really be equated as 'surrounded by people'? Sure there were other people on that same floor (and that is mentioned in Adams testimony, but in no way could they be said to be 'surrounding her'. Anyway, yes they no doubt 'talked' about the JFK crisis (sorry, is 'crisis' actually an apt word here?) but Adams was very clear in her testimony how long it was from the point of the shot to leaving the window...

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.

Any talking they may have done must have happened in that approximate time frame of 15-30 seconds.

(2) Vickie was with Sandra Styles at the North window, looking outward, and talking about the JFK crisis;

There is no mention of North window in her testimony at all, for that matter there is no mention of South window either. Irrespective, her testimony only mentions looking out of one window period!

Mr. BELIN - So another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - That's right.

Nowhere is the mention of then going to another window to look out so if that didn't happen then neither can the being at another window 'talking about the JFK crisis'.

(3) Vickie and Sandra met Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor, and talked about the JFK crisis;

Mr. BELIN - Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS - Nothing.

Adams says one thing and there was no response - that clearly isn't synonymous with 'talking about the JFK crisis'. And although 'encountered' could be synonymous with 'met', later on in her testimony Adams actually corrects the use of the word 'encountered' and changes it to 'saw' (note: not 'met')

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.

(NB: Either Belin has inadvertantly said 'Truly' instead of 'Shelley', or the stenographer has made that error)

(4) Vickie and Sandra walked to the Grassy Knoll parking lot, met a DPD officer and talked about the JFK crisis; 

The implication there seems to be, after a stroll in to the Grassy Knoll parking lot they met a DPD officer and had a face to face chat about the 'JFK crisis'. Yet...

Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."

Adams is testifying to going only approx. 2 yards within the tracks. There is nothing there to indicate that the 'meeting' of the DPD officer was face to face - nothing to indicate it wasn't... however it could just as easily have been at a certain distance, but not overly relevant really! I timed myself simulating that conversation a few times and came up with times ranging from 7 seconds to 10 seconds. (Not long really!).

(5) Vickie and Sandra walked to the front of the TSBD, and spoke with Joe Molina and Avery Smith about the JFK crisis; 

You have the walking to the front of the TSBD and speaking with Joe Molina and Avery Smith (sic) - Avery Davis about the 'JFK crisis', yet as already noted in the first bit of Adam's testimony that I put at the top of this comment Adams described this period as, and I quote, "I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone"

Further on in her testimony, *'there, meaning approaching the front of the TSBD.

Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.

From Adam's testimony itself then there is no 'speaking with Joe Molina and Avery Davis' per se, what there is is asking Avery Davis one question, getting a reply and then replying back. However it has to be noted that later on in Adams testimony (and addressed under the next step) she basically has Avery Davis coming with her to the motorcycle...

(6) Vickie walked over to the corner of Houston and Elm to listen to a DPD police report about the JFK crisis;

The part of Adam's testimony relevant here followed on directly from the above, and here it is

...There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.

Note the use of the word 'paused' there as it speaks importantly to how long she was there for, in that 'pause' she didn't wait around to hear a 'report about the JFK crisis', instead, she heard that the shots had been fired apparently from 2nd floor of 4th floor window - then she 'panicked'. She then goes on to mention in her testimony

... So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building

*It was at this time that the part of Adams testimony about seeing 'Ruby' comes in to play;

Miss ADAMS - There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.
And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I don't know whether that is relevant or what.
Mr. BELIN - That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw this?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles.

(7) Vickie negotiated with a DPD officer at the front door of the TSBD, to be admitted back inside;

In my opinion, 'negotiated' is a word that implies a certain length of time involved in a back and forth discussion about being let back in the building, yet, here is what Adam's testimony actually says on the matter...

Mr. BELIN - Now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out?
Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.
Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

*Interjection - as I mentioned way back at the start of this post I mentioned that it was either just before or just after this 'Step 7' that Adams was talking about when she mentioned the time of 'not more than 5 minutes'. (My personal opinion is that it is in regards to before this 'Step 7'). Anyroads, for clarity I will post again the relevant interchange of Adams testimony;

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.
Mr. BELIN - Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

On being directly asked for a reason why she has made this estimation, Adams is quite clear with her response  - the bolded bits there highlight that!

The 8th and 9th steps are of no particular interest in my opinion because as far as I'm concerned she could have taken any amount of times for any of these things to happen - in her testimony she is neither asked directly to put a time on these events or even particularly offer up a timeline that is as in depth as the timeline she was asked directly about and answered in regards to the previous points... she does mention 'a few minutes' (as will be noted), but could the fact that no 'exact' timeline was saught back up the thinking that it is of no real importance? Perhaps! Anyroads...

(8) Vickie walked up to the 2nd floor, and spoke with more TSBD employees about the JFK crisis;

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

...

Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.

Here Adams is saying that she just listened for a few minutes - it's not particularly synonymous with 'speaking about the JFK crisis' (or at least not overly so), irrespective, the 'chat' couldn't have been that good as she decided nothing interesting was going on and left.

(9) Vickie tried to take an elevator with two plainclothesman, but ended up walking back up to her 4th floor office with them. 

Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Just as a point of interest - who were the two men dressed in suit and ties, and were they indeed 'plainsclothesmen'? If that could be answered and there was a timing available from them then it could help to answer the timing of this.

Regards

P.S. Considering, Paul, that we have been responding back and forth directly on this thread... with deference to Sandy perhaps we could have an admin move the back and forth conversation we have developed here to a new thread so we don't overly de-rail things here (de-railing it may make Sandy mad. ). I suggest if this comment, and (going backwards from this point) - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - at this point it kind of splinters a bit because your response to me about a post I was responding to someone else.  - 15 - I do think that if that post was 'reduced' to just the part the part you then responded directly to, then we would have a great debate back and forth between us that could be extracted from this thread and made in to a new one? Thoughts? I don't even know how to instigate such a thing or indeed what a new thread could be titled, but if you think it is worth doing, Paul, I would be happy for it to be done.(and perhaps before we continue herein)

Kind regards.

[Paul Trejo]

Alistair,

First, I am posing this critique of the WC testimony of Vickie Adams strictly on the basis of the thread started by Sandy -- namely -- whether or not Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were telling the truth.

If we are literal about it, says Sandy, then EITHER Vickie Adams is lying, OR Shelly-Lovelady are lying -- and Sandy emphasizes, "We can't have it both ways."  That's why a careful analysis of Vickie Adams' testimony is warranted within this thread started by Sandy.

OK, that said, here is my feedback on your lengthy feedback above.

A. I did not say that the 9 steps would take 10 minutes -- I said that just WALKING the 9 steps would take 10 minutes, i.e. eliminating all the TALKING that Vickie did along the way.

B.  You are presuming that Belin meant arriving at the front door of the TSBD in his question to Vickie, and I am presuming that Belin meant arriving back in her office at the TSBD.   

C.  The only difference between the 7 steps and the 9 steps -- if we consider only the WALKING part, is another minute or so.  But it is the TALKING part that is crucial.

OK, now I will go by your own numbers above:

1.  At the south 4th floor TSBD window, immediately after the JFK shots, Vickie was part of a group of four people.  That's a lot of people who just heard loud sounds and watched the JFK limo speed away, and then watched chaos erupt in the Grassy Knoll area below.  Yes -- that qualifies as "surrounded" by people in my book.  And yes -- that qualifies as a "crisis" in my book, too.

2.  Even though Belin never distinguishes between the South window and the North window, but only says, "the window," that cannot alter the fact that the TSBD has a window at the South (from which VIckie saw the JFK crisis) and a window at the North (which is by the stairs she took).   Actually, there are *multiple* windows at the South, West, North and East of the TSBD -- it is literally *surrounded* by windows.  The spectacle of watching the public chaos of the Grassy Knoll only seconds after the JFK shooting would have been fascinating to anybody -- and losing track of time is a most likely outcome.  

3.  I think you are being too literal by taking the entire conversation between these two women (Vickie and Sandra) and these two men (Shelley and Lovelady) as one question and one, "I don't know" answer.  Vickie gave us a quick summary because the two men had NO FACTS to share. Shelley and Lovelady had been at the Grassy Knoll for several minutes, and then returned with NO FACTS -- not even any certainty whether JFK was really murdered.  Certainly no suspects.  I don't take Vickie so literally.  They TALKED like normal people would.

4.  I also think you are being too literal about Vickie's encounter with a DPD cop.  She reduces it to four statements, period; because that is the quick summary.  The DPD cop threw them out of the Grassy Knoll parking lot, and Vickie protested.  That's a different proposition.  They TALKED and even argued with each other.

5.  I also think you are being too literal about Vickie's quick summary of her TALKING with Joe Molina and Avery Davis.  She reduces it to three sentences, but that is only a summary.  The fact is that Joe and Avery were just as befuddled as most DPD cops at the time.  But they TALKED like normal people would.

6.  We are closer on the topic of Vickie's moments at the corner of Houston and Elm.  Not only does she listen to the DPD motorcycle police radio, but she also notices people and their faces and their clothes and their relationships on that corner.  Vickie makes it sound like a few seconds, because that is her short and sweet summary of it -- but realistically she is describing events lasting a few minutes.

7.  I think you are being too literal about Vickie's talk with the DPD cop blocking entrance to the door of the TSBD.  She gives a short and sweet summary, but consider the realistic side -- the DPD cops were in full security mode.  Would they just let somebody into the building who said, "Well, I can vouch for myself!"?   I sincerely doubt it.  She would have to TALK more than that -- and I maintain it is reasonable to use the word "negotiate".  Vickie summarizes it into two sentences; a mere summary statement.

8.  I think you are ignoring Vickie's actual words about her TALKING with people on the 2nd floor.  She actually says, word for word, that she "just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there."  Vickie admits that she was there for longer than a few seconds.  It was a "few minutes."  Well, why not five minutes, actually?  That seems reasonable to me.

9.  Vickie's description of her trying to use the elevator to return to the 4th floor, including her encounter with two "Detectives" in suits and their failed efforts to get the elevator to work -- was hardly the action of a few seconds, IMHO.  This was one minute minimum by my counting.

 Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Alistair Briggs]

Again, Paul, your response is appreciated, genuinely.

9 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

A. I did not say that the 9 steps would take 10 minutes -- I said that just WALKING the 9 steps would take 10 minutes, i.e. eliminating all the TALKING that Vickie did along the way.

B.  You are presuming that Belin meant arriving at the front door of the TSBD in his question to Vickie, and I am presuming that Belin meant arriving back in her office at the TSBD.  

Re. A. Ok I conceed that it would take 10 minutes walking the 9 steps (albeit with the caveat that (a) 10 minutes isn't an 'exact' time and/or (b) some people walk naturally slower than others.) However for the purpose of this discussion I will take as fact that " just WALKING the 9 steps would take 10 minutes"

Re. B Technically, yes I am presuming, however that is based on the exact wording of the question by Belin, the response by Adams and the qualification of Adams in the following interchange. (Bolded for emphasis)

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.
Mr. BELIN - Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

To me the way thay is worded is quite clear and the returned to the building means the point that she first returned to the building (as I mentioned in an earlier comment, I can't for sure say that means at the point of reaching the DPD officer at the front door or the point of literally entering the building after the DPD officer has let her back in, but that point is somewhat moot). So why am I 'presuming' that Belin meant the point when Adams first returned to the building? Because that's what it says! Belin has asked about the time between the shots and getting back to the building, Adams has given an estimated time of how long she think that took, Belin has then ask for a qualification, and Adams has given that qualification...

Why are you presuming that Belin meant arriving back in her office? Surely if he had meant that he would have actually asked that! Even if Adams had presumed that when Belin asked about 'back to the building' she thought he had meant ' back to her office' then she would have (a) during her qualification have included ALL of the bits between entering the building and getting back to her office, and (b) in the first place clearly have said more than the 'not more than 5 minutes elapsed - why? because on the 2nd floor, before meeting the 'plainsclothesmen' and before making it up to the 4th floor, and before reaching her office she '' listened for a few minutes ". But Adams didn't mention all of the bits between entering the building and getting back to her office, so surely she understood that the question of 'back to the building' meant the point of returning to the building (as she actually states in her qualification of the time - a time that in essence clearly couldn't have included the time of between entering the building and getting to he office anyway, as per her words in her testimony).

* I will try not to spend too long breaking down all 9 of your breakdowns of my breakdowns to your original 9 points. So I will quickly run through each point and only quote where relevant...

1. Moot point now, imo. 2. Yes there are multiple windows on all sides of the TSBD, but that is also a moot point! In the testimony of Adams, Belin spends a fair bit of time talking her through the windows to find out exactly which window Adams was standing at at the time of the shots. Yes what was being viewed would have been fascinating and yes losing track of time is a distinct possibility, but, again, you seem to have invented Adams being at one window for a time, then at another window for a time - none of which is evidenced in her testimony. 3. + 4. + 5. I merely posted the pertinent bits of Adams testimony to show exactly what she said; personally I am of the opinion that yes Adams would have spent longer than her estimated 5 minutes, but not an excessively much longer period of time. Sure she may have just been giving a 'summation' of what transpired, but nevertheless, no matter what her actual real life conversations were with anyone compared to her 'summations' of it in her testimony, she claimed that the time it took was approx. 5 minutes. So yes whilst in real life that 'journey' and all it entailed may have taken longer than that (for reasons we probably agree on) it couldn't have been that much longer. Had it been double the time, I'm sure Adams would have said approx. 10 minutes... Point 3. I will go into more detail below and also point 6 too... With regards to point 7. I have no problem with her actual real life attempts to get past the DPD officer taking longer than her summation of it in her testimony but it is not going to be a lot longer.... On points 8 & 9 I have no issue with what you have said; I don't think what happened in parts 8 and 9 have any relevance to the timeline...

9 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

3.  I think you are being too literal by taking the entire conversation between these two women (Vickie and Sandra) and these two men (Shelley and Lovelady) as one question and one, "I don't know" answer.  Vickie gave us a quick summary because the two men had NO FACTS to share. Shelley and Lovelady had been at the Grassy Knoll for several minutes, and then returned with NO FACTS -- not even any certainty whether JFK was really murdered.  Certainly no suspects.  I don't take Vickie so literally.  They TALKED like normal people would.
 

I don't know where you are getting that idea from, as I never said on this point about an 'entire conversation' between Adams and Shelley/Lovelady and I certainly made no mention on that point to there being one question and one answer. - actually, you seem to have conflated point 4 here with point 3 as it was the DPD officer in the back yard that gave the 'I don't know' answer and not Shelley/Lovelady.

Also you have stated that Shelley and Lovelady had been at the Grassy Knoll for several minutes. (emphasis added) and yet both Shelley and Lovelady in their individual testimonies were clear and in sync about how long they had spent there...

Mr. BALL - Did you stay there any length of time?
Mr. SHELLEY - Not very long.
Mr. BALL - How long would you say?
Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.

&

Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

Whilst there always has to be some lee-way in times as people tend not to be exact, how can the fact that both Shelley and Lovelady state a time of between 1 minute and 1 minute and a half be turned in to the 'several' minutes you put forward.

Also you have Adams having an 'entire conversation' with Shelley and Lovelady - where are you getting that from?

As per the testimony of Adams there was no conversation, she never stopped to talk to them...

Mr. BELIN - Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS - Nothing.

(Yes Belin uses the word 'encountered', but later on in the testimony Adams 'corrects' that to 'saw')

We can look at what both Shelley and Lovelady said in their testimonies about this 'encounter' and see if that leads to your conclusion of an 'entire conversation' between Adams and Shelley and Lovelady.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember.
Mr. BALL - You don't.
Mr. SHELLEY - No.

&

Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

Taking all three of those in to account a logical inference can easily be made as to what actually happened at that time from each of their perspective... without going in to that too deeply, suffice to say, taking all three of those in to account we can safely say that the three of them did not stop together as a 'group' and have an entire conversation.

10 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

6.  We are closer on the topic of Vickie's moments at the corner of Houston and Elm.  Not only does she listen to the DPD motorcycle police radio, but she also notices people and their faces and their clothes and their relationships on that corner.  Vickie makes it sound like a few seconds, because that is her short and sweet summary of it -- but realistically she is describing events lasting a few minutes.
 

You accept that Vickie makes it sound like a few seconds. Perhaps it took 15 seconds, perhaps it was 30 seconds, perhaps it was 45 seconds, perhaps it was a minute, perhaps it was 1 minute 15, perhaps it was 1 minute 30... Her testimony does not even attempt to put an exact time on how long that took. You want to conflate it to 'lasting a few minutes' though whilst accepting that her testimony makes it sound like a few seconds. That is quite a leap then... Sure the way she mentioned it might have been a 'short and sweet summary' of it that makes it sound like a few seconds, and sure it might have taken longer, but a 'few minutes' longer? No!

Summation...

I can look at Adams testimony and read the timings she has said for the things she has said and I can take from that that Adams has stated that from the time of the shots until re-entering the building a period of 5 minutes had elapsed. Her words! I also am well aware that accuracy of timings can be off somewhat, but there has to be a limit to that. Less than 5 minutes to do everything Adams states she has done and in the way she has done it would be an impossibility in my opinion. So 5 minutes, I would say, is the minimum. I also personally think that Adams has underplayed/understated the timings she has given and that it would have all in taken more than 5 minutes, but not excessively more... (if it had been closer to 10 minutes or thereabouts, I'm sure Adams would have said 10 minutes and not 5 minutes).

Paul, you seem to be adding more and more things on to both the 'journey' Adams took and the 'timing' it took, and you seem to keep adding a few minutes here and a few minutes there, all in you have turned something that Adams has put at 5 minutes in to something that you think took 30 minutes (give or take)...

Regards

 

[Paul Trejo]

Alistair,

I agree with you that some people walk slower than others.  We also tend to walk slightly slower when walking with others, and Vickie was walking with Sandra.  Also, consider this:

Mr. BELIN - What kind of shoes did you have on?
Miss ADAMS - Three-inch heels.

THREE-INCH HEELS!!  These are not sports sneakers!  Honestly -- how fast can any person walk while wearing three-inch heels?

As for "returning to the building" both the question and the answer remain ambiguous to me.  It is possible to be too literal when the attorney is being deliberately vague, IMHO.   Also, Belin asked her about how she could be so sure about her 5 minute estimate, and Vickie's response was that she and Sandra were "running."  Excuse me -- but nobody can "run" while wearing three-inch heels.   The language is too ambiguous.   

The real question is why Belin was pressuring Vickie Adams to estimate the TIMING of her journey.  It was a pop quiz, evidently, and Vickie had not thought it through -- but Belin demanded a quick answer.  Why?  Let us say, for the sake of argument, that Belin only meant "returned to the front door of the TSBD" as you are arguing, Alistair.  But why did he bother to press the issue at all?  What was he seeking?

IMHO, Belin wanted to know these factors: (i) did Vickie see LHO on the stairs down; (ii) did Vickie see Truly-Baker at any point; (iii) did Vickie see LHO leaving the TSBD; (iv) what did Vickie see near the Grassy Knoll parking lot?

The TIMING is crucial for all these major questions about the JFK assassination.  (Especially the the WC/FBI was covering up a shooter on the Grassy Knoll.)   Yet the result for the WC was a total blank, because Vickie's answer to all those questions was NO, NOTHING, NADA, ZIP.

Here are my responses to your current objections:

(1) You say that I am inventing events at the 4th floor windows for Vickie and Sandra and their two co-workers.  That is not quite correct.  Actually -- I am trying to explain -- according to this thread that Sandy started -- how Vickie Adams could possibly be telling the "truth" while at the same time Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady are telling the "truth" about their own TIMING.

(1.1)  One thing all these WC witnesses agree upon is that they did meet each other briefly on the 1st floor of the TSBD following the JFK assassination.  The only trouble -- which Sandy pinpoints -- is that Shelley-Lovelady claim they met Vickie and Sandra about 7-10 minutes after, while Vickie says she and Sandra met Shelley-Lovelady about 1.5 minutes later.   Taken literally (as you and Sandy read it) somebody is lying.

(1.2)  So, I want to argue that Vickie Adams was very poor about estimating the TIMING of her actions.  (BTW, Sandra Styles, who did not testify for the WC, did say in an interview, "We must have taken longer to get downstairs than I first thought, but I didn't argue with Vickie."  Also, said Sandra, they checked the elevators, first.)

(2-4)  The main problem continues to be the TIME when Vickie Adams met Shelly-Lovelady, who walked from the front door TSBD to the Grassy Knoll parking lot immediately after the JFK shots, and then they looked around for 90 seconds and then returned to the TSBD west entrance, and met Vickie and Sandra.  Their estimates range from 7-10 minutes for this whole activity.  That is reasonable -- we have to add the WALKING time (and the TALKING to others) time, to the journey of Shelley-Lovelady to get their 7-10 minute estimates.  The main issue, IMHO, is to arrange the timing so that NOBODY IS LYING.  To do that, I must insist that Vickie Adams' estimation of her TIMING was too narrow.  Sandra Styles herself agrees with me, IMHO.  People TALK, and if nothing important is said, then we tend to forget about it.  Also, three-inch heels slow people down.

(5-6) I will grant, Alistair, on the basis of the testimony of Shelly-Lovelady, that their exchange of words with Vickie and Sandra appears to have been a brief greeting -- as if they were never really friends, but only saw each other inside the TSBD every week or so -- so they had no reason to stop and chat.  But there is another explanation that is possible -- though I am speculating.  Shelley-Lovelady were certain that the JFK shots came from the Grassy Knoll.  They walked over there and looked around.  It doesn't seem reasonable to me that they would share this conviction, and then Vickie Adams would ask them directly about JFK, and they would say, "NOTHING," and barely remember that she was even there.  

It seems more likely to me that there was a "Grassy Knoll" CT going around the TSBD on 11/22/1963, that only grew over the months, and yet the WC was ready to stomp and smash on any WC testimony about a "Grassy Knoll" CT.  So, when Belin asked Adams-Shelley-Lovelady about their encounter on the 1st floor of the TSBD after the JFK assassination, they all turned MUM.  They didn't want to get stomped and smashed on record.  That seems most reasonable to me.  (Vickie Adams famously disappeared for 35 years after her WC testimony.)

(7-9) That said, the rest of the steps don't matter much -- except that they show that Vickie spent more time outside the TSBD than inside during that crucial period.  Yet her subjective memory of the TIMING is askew.  My guess is that the crisis of the JFK assassination and the chaos of the public surrounding the TSBD, plus the controversy of the prevailing CT's challenged her memory. 

As for my speculation that Vickie spent more time TALKING to people than she recalls, I will stand by it.  She recalls -- "What's going on?"  and "I don't know!" -- and yet in reality such conversations take TIME, though we discount their TIMING simply because their CONTENT is so vapid.

CONCLUSION:  Alistair, you say there has to be a "limit" to the amount of error that a given witness has regarding TIMING, and I say that if there is such a "limit", it is far greater than you are allowing.  There was one doctor at Parkland, for example, whose timing estimate for his activity with JFK was off by more than a half-hour, which was pointed out for him by the WC attorneys.  I repeat: unless a person is actively looking at his watch during crisis moments, it is easy to get confused with regard to TIMING.

So -- if you are now ready to say that Vickie's STEPS account for 10 minutes and not 5 minutes, Alistair, here is the crucial question: Are you ready to explain the WC testimony DISCREPANCY between the TIMING of the meeting of Vickie, Sandra and Shelley-Lovelady?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Ray Mitcham]

20 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

 

THREE-INCH HEELS!!  These are not sports sneakers!  Honestly -- how fast can any person walk while wearing three-inch heels?

As for "returning to the building" both the question and the answer remain ambiguous to me.  It is possible to be too literal when the attorney is being deliberately vague, IMHO.   Also, Belin asked her about how she could be so sure about her 5 minute estimate, and Vickie's response was that she and Sandra were "running."  Excuse me -- but nobody can "run" while wearing three-inch heels.   The language is too ambiguous.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

You really do spout a load of rubbish, Paul

 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Paul Trejo]

22 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

You really do spout a load of rubbish, Paul

Ray, 

Are you willing to show us how fast YOU can run while wearing three-inch heels?

Can you really compare the speed of a runner wearing sneakers, compared to wearing three-inch heels?

Surely, people will do anything for publicity and a stunt.  My statement about Vickie Adams "running" in three-inch heels was very specific.

But you knew that.

You are clearly running out of logical arguments when you have to resort to rank comedy.

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo