HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.

[Paul Trejo]

On 1/10/2017 at 3:15 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul

*On the subject of Harry Holmes, I'm not quite up to speed on all of that. I have read his testimony and am trying to cross-reference it with other information - one of the books I have on the matter omits that part about Mexico and that has raised my eyebrows... nevertheless something there doesn't add up and I agree with you that it makes no sense!

I don't deny that there is a problem between all that. I do see what the problem is... I haven't concluded what the solution is though. From what you have said previously, am I right in thinking that you are of the opinion (in simplistic terms) that...

nobody saw Oswald on the first floor therefore because Fritz said that Oswald said he was on the first floor then Fritz is lying?

Alistair,

I am certainly tending toward that opinion.  There is something terribly wrong with the fact (noted by Jim Garrison 50 years ago) that Captain Fritz and the other interrogators of LHO at the Dallas City Jail never produced even WRITTEN notes that weekend.

Captain Fritz produced his notes WEEKS later, as did Harry Holmes.  James Hosty provided his notes even later than they did.

This is "crooked as a dog's hind leg."   But for some reason, even the lofty Jim Garrison shied away from investigating the Dallas Police.  Walt Brown was not the first, but may have been the best so far, with his book, Treachery in Dallas (1995).

Yes, indeed, Alistair -- I suspect Fritz of lying, but also Hosty, Sorrels, Bookhout and Holmes -- and that is only the start.

I am in complete harmony with the title of this thread: "Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all."

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 12, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 1/8/2017 at 9:15 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

>> Bart Kamp wrote: "Where is Lovelady's Nov 22nd FBI interview? I did make mention of this." 

"Yes, I asked you for a link to that because there is a difficulty (for my premise) in it that needs to be addressed. I've been waiting for the Alistair/Trejo Victoria Adams posts to wrap up before getting to this."

Sandy,

I think the Victoria Adams posts are pretty well wrapped up now -- there is a mild consensus that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles arrived at the 1st floor of the TSBD between 3-4 minutes after the JFK shooting.

What are your views on Billy Lovelady's FBI 11/22/1963 interview?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I am certainly tending toward that opinion.  There is something terribly wrong with the fact (noted by Jim Garrison 50 years ago) that Captain Fritz and the other interrogators of LHO at the Dallas City Jail never produced even WRITTEN notes that day.

Captain Fritz produced his notes WEEKS later, as did Harry Holmes.  James Hosty provided his notes even later than they did.

This is "crooked as a dog's hind leg."   But for some reason, even the lofty Jim Garrison shied away from investigating the Dallas Police.  Walt Brown was not the first, but may have been the best so far, with his book, Treachery in Dallas (1995).

Yes, indeed, Alistair -- I suspect Fritz of lying, but also Hosty, Sorrels, Bookhout and Holmes -- and that is only the start.

I am in complete harmony with the title of this thread: "Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all."

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

You may well be correct with your thinking. I'm not saying that you are ultimately wrong, merely offering up that there may be an alternative, which you may have discounted, but I have not discounted yet...

With no contemporary notes of the Oswald interrogation there is certainly an annoyance with that, in an ideal world there would have been recordings of it and that would be even better. But there isn't either of those things so we have to deal with what there is. So yes, having notes produced weeks later, months later, years later may raise red flags on their veracity, but then again they may not...

You say you are tending towards the opinion that "nobody saw Oswald on the first floor therefore because Fritz said that Oswald said he was on the first floor then Fritz is lying" Nothing wrong with that thinking, and as I said, you may well be ultimately correct. But you might ultimately be wrong and perhaps " nobody saw Oswald on the first floor therefore because Fritz said that Oswald said he was on the first floor then Oswald is lying"...

*P.S. I too don't think Shelley & Lovelady lied - then again being wrong (to whatever degree) is not the same as lying.

Couple of direct questions for you, Paul,

Where do you think Oswald was at the time of the shots?
From where do you think he left the building?

Regards

Edited January 11, 2017 by Alistair Briggs

[Paul Trejo]

10 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

...Couple of direct questions for you, Paul,

Where do you think Oswald was at the time of the shots?
From where do you think he left the building?

Regards

Alistair,

(1) Around 12:30pm, when JFK was shot, I believe that LHO was on the 2nd floor of the TSBD, calmly finishing his lunch and drinking a Coke.   I surmise this from the testimony of the TSBD workers, who agreed that LHO was finishing up book orders on the 6th floor around 11:50am, when they left by elevator, and LHO asked them to send the elevator back up after they got down.  IMHO, therefore, LHO planned to eat lunch soon afterwards. 

I surmise that at 12:30 LHO was finishing his lunch, and he was surprised when, around 12:32pm, Officer Baker shouted out to him, with a pistol pointed at LHO's heart, and demanding from Roy Truly if he knew this guy.   LHO remained calm, Roy Truly vouched for him, then Baker and Truly ran upstairs.  Both Baker and Truly testified that LHO was cool, calm and collected -- with evidently nothing to personally hide.  I believe them.

(2) I think LHO exited the TSBD from a rear exit.  Although LHO did not shoot JFK, it began to occur to LHO that he knew exactly who did shoot JFK, namely, his "friends," to whom he had handed over his rifle that morning.  These guys were all connected to Guy Banister in New Orleans, including Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall and Roscoe White. 

So, I sincerely doubt that LHO exited the TSBD by the front door.  Besides, there were several TSBD workers there who would've recognized LHO -- and who'd never have lied to protect him (i.e. Shelley-Lovelady would not deliberately lie.)  So, IMHO, one of the rear TSBD exits provided a more convenient, quiet exit for LHO.

Now, you didn't ask what LHO did after he left the TSBD, but IMHO he never took a bus or taxi.  I have studied the WC testimony of the bus driver, the bus passengers and the taxi driver, which are full of holes and strongly suggest cases of mistaken identity.  

LHO wasn't the JFK shooter -- but he had a fair idea who was -- and he knew one disturbing factor -- they had his rifle, because he had just handed it over that very morning.  So, LHO hurried home to get his pistol.  That's my current reading of it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 11, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul, thanks for your candid response, greatly appreciated.

Personally I have considered over the years, individually and totally what you are saying and always find myself coming across unanswered questions about it leading me to think in a different way which leads to unanswered questions which leads to thinking a different way and coming across unanswered questions... ad infinitum...

I suppose, alas, that's just how it goes.

[Ray Mitcham]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

(1) Around 12:30pm, when JFK was shot, I believe that LHO was on the 2nd floor of the TSBD, calmly finishing his lunch and drinking a Coke.   I surmise this from the testimony of the TSBD workers, who agreed that LHO was finishing up book orders on the 6th floor around 11:50am, when they left by elevator, and LHO asked them to send the elevator back up after they got down.  IMHO, therefore, LHO planned to eat lunch soon afterwards. 

I surmise that at 12:30 LHO was finishing his lunch, and he was surprised when, around 12:32pm, Officer Baker shouted out to him, with a pistol pointed at LHO's heart, and demanding from Roy Truly if he knew this guy.   LHO remained calm, Roy Truly vouched for him, then Baker and Truly ran upstairs.  Both Baker and Truly testified that LHO was cool, calm and collected -- with evidently nothing to personally hide.  I believe them.

(2) I think LHO exited the TSBD from a rear exit.  Although LHO did not shoot JFK, it began to occur to LHO that he knew exactly who did shoot JFK, namely, his "friends," to whom he had handed over his rifle that morning.  These guys were all connected to Guy Banister in New Orleans, including Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall and Roscoe White. 

So, I sincerely doubt that LHO exited the TSBD by the front door.  Besides, there were several TSBD workers there who would've recognized LHO -- and who'd never have lied to protect him (i.e. Shelley-Lovelady would not deliberately lie.)  So, IMHO, one of the rear TSBD exits provided a more convenient, quiet exit for LHO.

Now, you didn't ask what LHO did after he left the TSBD, but IMHO he never took a bus or taxi.  I have studied the WC testimony of the bus driver, the bus passengers and the taxi driver, which are full of holes and strongly suggest cases of mistaken identification.  

LHO wasn't the JFK shooter -- but he had a fair idea who was -- and he knew one disturbing factor -- they had his rifle, because he had just handed it over that very morning.  So, LHO hurried home to get his pistol.  That's my current reading of it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

A couple of things which go against Oswald having his lunch on the second floor. 

 

Carol Arnold said she saw Oswald on the first floor at about 12.25.

Oswald saw Norman and Jarman pass the domino room on the first floor, at about 12.15, which they did.

Givens said he saw Oswald in the domino room at around 11.50.

 

These are not "I think, I believe,I surmise, I sincerely doubt" statements.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Ray Mitcham]

Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM.

She stated thereafter she viewed the Presidential Motorcade and heard the shots that were fired at the President; however, she could furnish no information of value as to the individual firing the shots or any other information concerning OSWALD, whom she stated she did not know and had merely seen him working in the building.

on 11/26/1963 at Dallas, Texas 
File # DL 89–43 
by Special Agent Richard E. Harrison

(Warren Commission Document 5, p.41)

 

DL 100–10461

I, Mrs. R. E. (Carolyn) Arnold, hereby freely and voluntarily make the following statement to E. J. Robertson who has identified himself as a Special Agent of the F.B.I.

My name is Carolyn Arnold and I am married to R. E. Arnold. I reside at 3325 South Tyler Street, Dallas, Texas. I am 20 years of age, born June 1, 1943, at Memphis, Tenn. I am a while female, and am employed by the Texas School Book Depository as a Secretary.

 

On November 22, 1963, at the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was with Mr. O. V. Campbell, 7120 Twin Tree Lane, Dallas; Mrs. L. C. (Bonnie) Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt. 117, Dallas; Mrs. Barney (Betty) Dragoo, 2705 West Brooklyn, Dallas; Mrs. Don (Virgie) Baker née Rackley, 3600½ Live Oak, Dallas; and Miss Judy Johnson, 915 Sunnyside, Dallas, at the time President Kennedy was shot.

 

I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time President Kennedy was shot.

 

On the morning of November 22, 1963, I do not remember seeing any stranger in the building housing the Texas School Book Depository.

I left the Texas School Book Depository Building at about 12:25 PM, November 22, 1963, and never returned to this building on that date.

I have read the above statement consisting of one and one–half pages and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge.

Mrs. R. E. (CAROLYN) ARNOLD

Witnesses:

E. J. ROBERTSON, Special Agent, FBI, Dallas, Texas, 3/18/64

THOMAS T. TRETTIS, Jr., Specail Agent, FBI, Dallas, Texas, 3/18/64

(Warren Commission Document 706, p.7)

 

Note she did not say she didn't see Oswald, but said she didn't see him at the time the President was shot.

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul, thanks for your candid response, greatly appreciated.

Personally I have considered over the years, individually and totally what you are saying and always find myself coming across unanswered questions about it leading me to think in a different way which leads to unanswered questions which leads to thinking a different way and coming across unanswered questions... ad infinitum...

I suppose, alas, that's just how it goes.

Alistair,

I was the same way from 1993 to 2006 -- because the bulk of the CT literature out there is an attack on the CIA -- and it spins in circles without satisfaction.

Then, around 2007, I began to question General Walker, and everything fell into place for me.  I started with a book many have discounted because of some exaggeration, namely, FLASHBACK: The Untold Story of Lee Harvey Oswald (1993) by Ron Lewis.  Ron was an advisor for Oliver Stone's movie, JFK (1992) and his book is believable (minus some ordinary exaggeration).  Ron Lewis says that LHO told him that he shot at General Walker, and that Guy Banister found out and was blackmailing LHO.

I researched this on my own, and what I found was impressive.  It's wasn't the CIA.  It wasn't the Mafia.  It wasn't LBJ.  It was the Radical Right.  Guy Banister wasn't a CIA agent, he was a Radical Right politician.  Many folks still don't know that.

My search led me to Harry Dean, who is still kicking out there in Southern California.  I met Harry personally, and I find him very believable.  Of course, much nonsense has been written about Harry for 50 years, but Harry himself told me that he was never an FBI agent nor a CIA agent -- that was all deception started by fiction writer W.R. Morris for profit.  Harry told me he was a former member of Fidel Castro's 26th of July Movement, which was taken over by the FPCC, so Harry was briefly a Secretary for the FPCC in Chicago, and a capable fund-raiser for Fidel Castro -- until Fidel turned on his US supporters and started executing them.  Harry then moved to Southern California where he joined the John Birch Society and the Minutemen, and befriended Loran Hall and Larry Howard.  Harry also began to volunteer data to the FBI (without pay).  During September 1963, General Walker came to Southern California, and told some JBS/Minutemen insiders, including Harry Dean, that LHO was going to be his Patsy in his JFK plot.  At the time, Harry just thought this was normal, rightist big-talk.

I was also fortunate to live in Austin, where the personal papers of General Walker are stored at UT Austin's Briscoe Center for American History.   There are 90 boxes of material there, and I searched in every single one (for college credit).  My results convinced me that JFK researchers have been overlooking the most important suspect of the JFK assassination -- for 50 years.  General Walker wanted people to know his historical role -- but since he was not alone in the plot, he maintained relative silence.  But he consistently linked his name to Lee Harvey Oswald until the day he died.  This is all in his personal papers (which I shared with Jeff Caufield over the years, as well as with Gary Mack, and also with this Forum since 2010).

Gary Mack has posted online the most important link of General Walker with LHO, namely, the so-called Jack Martin Film of August, 1963, which is a home movie showing the bullet holes in General Walker's home in Dallas in the first part of the film, and then LHO getting arrested on Canal Street in NOLA in the second part of the film.  Gary Mack was slowly coming around to a Walker-did-it theory before he died in 2015. 

Jeff Caufield's recent book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015) is the most direct exposition of this CT.  It is confirmed by the 1995 book by Walt Brown, Treachery in Dallas, among others.

Once we get the correct orientation -- that General Walker was the source of the Dallas plot against JFK -- then we can see clearly how to evaluate all of the 488 WC witnesses.   If you choose to research this, Alistair, it is well to begin with the WC testimonies of General Walker, Robert Alan Surrey, Revilo P. Oliver, Bernie Weissman, Robert Krause -- and then continue with the WC testimonies of DPD and Dallas Sheriff Department folks like Buddy Walthers, and continue to Fritz-Holmes-Sorrels-Hosty-Bookhout.  

Everybody else is telling the TRUTH as they know it.  Only these conspirators deliberately lie to the WC attorneys.  This is blatantly obvious in the case of Robert Alan Surrey; perhaps it is best to start with him.  By the way, Penn Jones Jr. said that Robert Alan Surrey and James Hosty were bridge partners for years.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 11, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul,

I am always open to new directions to look in to, so I will certainly look more in to the avenues you have mentioned. General Walker is certainly a person of interest.

Anyroads, with regards to your previous comment;

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Now, you didn't ask what LHO did after he left the TSBD, but IMHO he never took a bus or taxi.  I have studied the WC testimony of the bus driver, the bus passengers and the taxi driver, which are full of holes and strongly suggest cases of mistaken identity. 

I just wanted to ask for clarity on that point... If he never took a bus or taxi was there enough time for him to make the journey home to get his pistol or do you think he had another mode of transport?

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

LHO wasn't the JFK shooter -- but he had a fair idea who was -- and he knew one disturbing factor -- they had his rifle, because he had just handed it over that very morning.  So, LHO hurried home to get his pistol.  That's my current reading of it.
 

I just wanted to ask for clarity on that point... at what point that morning do you think Oswald handed over his rifle? And in your opinion was the perrson he handed it over to someone who worked in the TSBD or a 'stranger'?

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul,

I just wanted to ask for clarity on that point... If he never took a bus or taxi was there enough time for him to make the journey home to get his pistol or do you think he had another mode of transport?

I just wanted to ask for clarity on that point... at what point that morning do you think Oswald handed over his rifle? And in your opinion was the perrson he handed it over to someone who worked in the TSBD or a 'stranger'?

Alistair,

Let's not pursue this further in Sandy's thread.  I accept the green Rambler account by Roger Craig.  I also accept Gerry Patrick Hemming's account of the rifle.  LHO gave it to a non-employee, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

22 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

I think the Victoria Adams posts are pretty well wrapped up now -- there is a mild consensus that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles arrived at the 1st floor of the TSBD between 3-4 minutes after the JFK shooting.

What are your views on Billy Lovelady's FBI 11/22/1963 interview?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

BUMP

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I was the same way from 1993 to 2006 -- because the bulk of the CT literature out there is an attack on the CIA -- and it spins in circles without satisfaction.

And the situation is certainly worse now than it was in 2006 in that regard.  There is such a determination to tie the assassination into Deep Politics that there is scarcely any tolerance for more mundane and plausible conspiracy theories.  I once started a highly unpopular thread in which I questioned the extent to which conspiracy theorists' current political leanings color their view of the assassination.  For many of them, it seems, the assassination of JFK simply must have cosmic importance and be directly relevant to the situation in the country today.

Then, around 2007, I began to question General Walker, and everything fell into place for me.  I started with a book many have discounted because of some exaggeration, namely, FLASHBACK: The Untold Story of Lee Harvey Oswald (1993) by Ron Lewis.  Ron was an advisor for Oliver Stone's movie, JFK (1992) and his book is believable (minus some ordinary exaggeration).  Ron Lewis says that LHO told him that he shot at General Walker, and that Guy Banister found out and was blackmailing LHO.

I had the same sort of epiphany with Larry Hancock's work.  My struggle had been with (1) the seeming disconnect between the assassination and the cover-up, and (2) the ever-more-elaborate, to the point of complete unbelievability, theories of both the assassination and the cover-up.  Once you accept that they weren't connected and that neither one had to be anywhere near as elaborate as most conspiracy theorists envision, things that otherwise don't make sense fall into place.  Under this approach, they were two different conspiracies with different objectives, one reasonably well-planned and one largely impromptu, and neither as elaborate as the Deep Politics folks would like to believe.  I can't recall the extent to which Larry focuses on Walker, if at all.  Since I haven't given much thought to Walker, I don't know the extent to which he could be accommodated into this approach (pretty easily I would think).  I'm at the point where I don't think the nuts-and-bolts of the assassination will ever be fully known, but I do think we can look at it from a 30,000-foot level (as opposed to the electron-microscope level we often see here) and arrive at a pretty good understanding of what took place.

 

[Paul Trejo]

Lance,

I agree that the JFK assassination and the JFK coverup are utterly separate, and that this dramatically simplifies a CT.

I admire Larry Hancock's work, yet he has rejected my Walker-did-it CT.  For Larry, Walker was just a crazy old Ex-General.

For me, the truthfulness of Shelley-Lovelady is cinched by a Walker-did-it CT.

Regards 

--Paul 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul,

what I'm not understanding at the moment is why it is important for the scenario that you believe in for Shelley/Lovelady's route to be the longer time that Sandy posited because if Oswald, as you believe, was in the 2nd floor lunchroom at the time of the shots, what difference does it make whether Shelley/Lovelady left the steps after 30 seconds or 3 minutes?

Regards

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Lance,

I agree that the JFK assassination and the JFK coverup are utterly separate, and that this dramatically simplifies a CT.

I admire Larry Hancock's work, yet he has rejected my Walker-did-it CT.  For Larry, Walker was just a crazy old Ex-General.

For me, the truthfulness of Shelley-Lovelady is cinched by a Walker-did-it CT.

Regards 

--Paul 

Off the topic, but do you have any enthusiasm for Caufield's recent book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: The Extensive New Evidence of a Radical-Right Conspiracy?  I'm just about at the point where I can't stand another JFK book, but I might take a chance on this one if it's worthwhile.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Guest