A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[David Josephs]

57 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Deal with the exhumation and the other scientific and common sense evidence.

Deal with 200 out of 123....  decades before this exhumation.

For those following and wanting some real information instead of opinion...  the card in the Middle is HARVEY's original card...

The FBI forged the boy's school records by changing the cumulative PERM record.  All the information from each school is sent to a central location where PERM records are kept...  

This is flanked by the actual WCE #1384 and another version of the middle form with all the data.

The card in the middle was HARVEY's PERM card and should not exist in the state it's in.  This shows the first semester of PS117 prior to the transfer to PS44.  There were 3 PS44's in NYC in 1953: Bronx, Manhattan and Brooklyn.  PS44 already appears on the middle card and is the 3rd change of schools recorded on the form.

Why does it stop here?   

The PS44 data on CE1384 from 3/23 to the end of the semester is not possible... not even close as we've shown.  

LEE Oswald attended PS44 in Manhattan while HARVEY is in PS44 in the Bronx.  The PS44 data on that card is a combination of LEE's record and the miscounting of school days between 3/23/53 and 1/6/54...

What permanent record would not include mention of the boy's stay at YOUTH HOUSE?
What permanent record would have 70 more days of school than is possible?
Why does his probation officer Carro and his caretaker Marge say in numerous reports that Oswald entered BACK the 9th grade in May 1953? He was supposed to be in the 7th grade in May 1953...

huh?

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Just now, W. Tracy Parnell said:

See what I just posted for the tip of the iceberg regarding what we "have". On the mastoid operation, you are down to one possibility as I demonstrated before since Groody did speak out and said nothing about anyone pressuring anybody.

Yeah, right Tracy. As though people can't keep a secret.

 

Just now, W. Tracy Parnell said:

I understand that Einstein's theory is currently accepted and it is on the basis of scientific proof not a belief in a holy book written by a man who hates the CIA.

Einstein developed his Theory of Relativity by fitting together pieces of evidence that seemed contradictory. (Sort of like school records indicating that a student attended two schools simultaneously.) Meanwhile, Einstein's contemporaries made excuses for the evidence, hoping to make it fit their preconceived notions. (Sort of like Armstrong's detractors.)

The other scientists got nowhere. In contrast, Einstein developed a theory where all the evidence fit together nicely, without his having to resort to excuse making. (Sort of like what John Armstrong did with the Oswald evidence.) He did this because he had an mind opened to new new and unusual possibilities.

Einstein's finished theory sounded preposterous and was rejected by most. (Sort of like Armstrong's theory, which sounds far fetched to most people.) But Einstein stuck with his guns because he knew that the evidence -- and not the excuses -- would win the day.

Eventually Einstein was vindicated and his theory proven correct. I am confident that Armstrong will be vindicated too.

 

(And now folks, prepare for the "comparing Armstrong to Einstein" outcry from numbskulls. Even though I was comparing  the nature and evolution of their respective theories.)

 

BTW Tracy, do you believe that the faster things move:

1. The heavier they get.
2. The thinner they get.
3. The slower their time will run for them, but will seem normal.
4. The faster everything else will happen, but will seem normal to everybody else.

Suppose you are driving your spacecraft near the speed of light. You can't see what's ahead, so you turn on your headlights. What will happen?

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yeah, right Tracy. As though people can't keep a secret.

You said that the "powers" approached all of the witnesses at the exhumation and bribed them to keep quiet. But Groody wasn't keeping quiet at all. He went to the media and told his story to anyone who would listen. 

As for Einstein, he had science on his side. That is how his theory came to be accepted. On your side you have mistaken witnesses and misinterpreted records. You have no science to back you up.

[Mathias Baumann]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mathias,

Do you therefore believe that the other plots had their Mexico Cities?

 

Sandy,

yes, I think that is possible, at least in the case of Lopez:

"Like Oswald, Lopez was also of interest to Naval Intelligence. Also similar to Oswald, Gilberto Lopez made a mysterious trip to Mexico City in the fall of 1963, attempting to get to Cuba. Lopez even used the same border crossing as Oswald, and government reports say both went by car, though neither man owned a car. Like Oswald, Lopez had recently separated from his wife and had gotten into a fist-fight in the summer of 1963 over supposedly pro-Castro sympathies.

Declassified Warren Commission and CIA documents confirm that Lopez, whose movements parallel Oswald in so many ways in 1963, was on a secret "mission" for the US involving Cuba, an "operation" so secret that the CIA felt that protecting it was considered more important than thoroughly investigating the JFK assassination. Our high Florida law-enforcement source confirmed that Lopez was an asset for another agency, though he did not say whether Lopez was a "witting" or "unwitting" asset)."

--> Ultimate Sacrifice, page 305

"Oswald was linked to Lopez via Informant reports of a visit by Oswald to Tampa and someone with its small Fair Play for Cuba Committe chapter, the same Group Lopez visited on November 17,1963, the day before JFK's Tampa trip."

--> page 307

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Geez Mathias, even if Oswald wasn't important to the success of the plot that doesn't mean there was no Oswald Project. The Oswald project was formed long before the assassination plot and had nothing to do with the assassination.

And that is why I think that it is not all that important. I think we already have enough evidence to show that Oswald was an intelligence asset. We should now concentrate on identifying the people behind the assassination plot. People like David Morales, Johnny Roselli, Bill Harvey etc.

[Bernie Laverick]

"Suppose you are driving your spacecraft near the speed of light. You can't see what's ahead, so you turn on your headlights. What will happen?" 

I've not read this chapter from H&L, I'm sure it will be wonderfully illuminating. Meanwhile, back on planet Earth...

I'm as confident as one can possibly be that Einstein would never have believed that any intelligence service could co opt two unrelated children for the purposes of some unknown covert operation who then grew into adulthood looking almost identical. By pure undiluted coincidence?  What are the odds of that happening?  Are they bigger than a mastoid operation being carried out on an under ten year old doppelganger so as to match the scars of the person he is impersonating should he ever be exhumed thirty years later? And if this top secret programme really was so top secret how come 'Lee' was allowed to buy trucks using his real name and be in places that would certainly blow his cover? And for the eightieth time of asking...what evidence exists of where 'Lee' lived during the time 'Harvey' was in Russia? They never EVER answer these questions because, well, how can they without looking very silly.

Info dump alert!!!! Change of subject alert!!! Abuse alert!!!! Cointelpro accusation alert!!!

[David Josephs]

7 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Like Oswald, Lopez was also of interest to Naval Intelligence. Also similar to Oswald, Gilberto Lopez made a mysterious trip to Mexico City in the fall of 1963, attempting to get to Cuba. Lopez even used the same border crossing as Oswald, and government reports say both went by car, though neither man owned a car. Like Oswald, Lopez had recently separated from his wife and had gotten into a fist-fight in the summer of 1963 over supposedly pro-Castro sympathies.

And this of course leads to Arthur Valle in Chicago related to the Chicago Plot with much the same details and set-up.

Which were either

1) real events which would then make the Oswald activities meet the dual purpose of creating bona fides for his infiltrations as well as incrimination should the deed be done in Dallas

or 2) Paper events made up to lead ultimately to Oswald in Dallas...   (I personally think it's #1)

If you go to the Warren Commission Docs and search on "Vallee" you will be amazed at the attempts at connection Vallee to Oswald...

"Never believe anything until it's been officially denied"

[Sandy Larsen]

53 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

One school record shows "last school" as NYC. And the other school record shows "last school" as Texas. But we're expected to believe that when one Oswald was there, and then the clone was there that no one at the school ever said, "Hmmm, wasn't he here before?" Nothing like that was ever said by anyone at either school.

But we're expected to believe that the clones were attending consecutively? You'd think if it was that there'd be some kind of witness statements remembering this. That never happened.

 

Oswald attended 6th grade at Ridglea West Elementary in Fort Worth.

He moved to New York City and attended Trinity Lutheran School, Public School 117, and Public School 44 during his 7th and 8th grades.

He moved to New Orleans and attended Beauregard Junior High School during his 8th and 9th grades.

So when he "returned" he did so to a different school. And to a different state, for that matter. (Louisiana instead of Texas.)

------------------------------------------------------------

During the Fall semester of 8th grade, he attended both Public School 44 in NYC and Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans simultaneously. We know it was simultaneous because he attended close to the full semester at both. This is what the school records show.

During the first half of the Fall semester of 9th grade, he attended both Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans and Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth simultaneously. Attendance at Stripling is known through multiple eyewitnesses. The records were taken by the FBI and haven't been seen since.

 

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Bernie Laverick said:

what evidence exists of where 'Lee' lived during the time 'Harvey' was in Russia?

From the accounts of those who saw him... it appears he was in New Orleans and the Florida training camps.  It also appears he traveled to Cuba and Mexico

Here are some references (as if you cared... but these are for those who want to follow the evidence).  As usual, you aren't going to learn what you don't want to know Bernie... and the actual evidence which required time, sweat, toil and effort to obtain give us what you wanted to know. 

July 1962 while Harvey/Marina are in Ft Worth

- Betty Parrott, the girlfriend of CIA Agent William Dalzell, recalled that several waiters at the Court of Two Sister's Restaurant on Bourbon Street knew Lee Oswald. They remembered that he resided in a small apartment above the restaurant which was sometimes used as a storeroom. Leander D' Avy was the doorman at the Court of Two Sisters and had worked there for two years after retiring from 20 years service in the US Air Force. In June 1962 a young man walked in and asked D'Avy if Clay Bertrand worked at the restaurant (Clay Bertrand was an alias used by New Orleans businessman Clay Shaw). T he night manager, Gene Davis, overheard the conversation and told D' Avy that he wanted to talk to the young man.

==========

Many feel that Lorenz is not a reliable witness... all I ask is that you impeach her testimony with something, anything before you claim she is incorrect)

Mr. Fithian. "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of Lee Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960. Marita Lorenz. "Yes."

=============

A few days after Harvey Oswald and Marina were married in Minsk, Dr. Enrique Lorenzo Luaces met Lee Oswald in Havana, Cuba. Dr. Luaces was formerly a professor

of engineering at the University of Santiago in Santiago, Cuba. He was well acquainted with Robert "Bob" Bruce Tabor, a founding member of the Fair Play for Cuba

Committee, a correspondent for the Columbia Broadcasting System (CBS), and probably a CIA asset.

Robert Tabor knew and associated with various news correspondents in Cuba in 1961 including New York Times correspondent Ruby Hart Phillips who worked in

Cuba for 25 years. Phillips often shared her Miami apartment with CIA operatives Frank Fiorini/Sturgis, Alex Rorke, and William Johnson.139 139 Army Intelligence report 470th INTC Detachment, Fort Amador, Canal Zone 12/3/63; testimony of William Johnson   Tabor arrived in Cuba in January

1961 and accompanied Fidel Castro during the Bay of Pigs invasion as a news reporter and was wounded in his leg.

Approximately 3 weeks after the Bay of Pigs Robert Tabor, dressed in a khaki uniform and armed with a .38 pistol, entered Sloppy Joe's Bar in Havana on crl}tches.

Accompanying Tabor was a young man, dressed in khaki trousers and a blue denim shirt, who was carrying a portfolio. T he two men approached Dr. Luaces and Tabor introduced

his friend to Dr. Luaces as Lieutenant Harvey Oswald, an arms expert. Dr. Luaces was unsure if the young man's name was "Oswalt" or "Oswald" and asked him to spell his

last name. Oswald told Dr. Luaces his name ended with a "D." Tabor asked Oswald to open his briefcase and show Dr. Luaces the contents.

In the briefcase were a series of folded charts, one of which Oswald took out and unfolded. T he chart Oswald showed to Dr. Luaces was a cut-away training aid for theM-

1 rifle. Dr. Luaces asked Oswald why he had not yet been picked up by Cuban authorities, to which Oswald replied "because he had not yet been found." Luaces felt so

uncomfortable with Tabor and Oswald and their discussions about rifles, that he left the bar. He never saw Oswald again but occasionally saw Tabor in Havana during the following

months. Dr. Luaces left Cuba in July 1961 and moved to the Republic of Panama. On December 3, 1963, following the assassination of President Kennedy, he was interviewed

by Army Intelligence. Their report stated, "Dr. Luaces definitely identified the individual introduced to him by Tabor as the 'Lee Harvey Oswald' whose picture recently

appeared in the local press as the accused assassin of President Kennedy."140 140 Army Intelligence report 470th INTC Detachment, Fort Amador, Canal Zone 12/3/63.

[Sandy Larsen]

33 minutes ago, Bernie Laverick said:

I'm as confident as one can possibly be that Einstein would never have believed that any intelligence service could co opt two unrelated children for the purposes of some unknown covert operation who then grew into adulthood looking almost identical. By pure undiluted coincidence?  What are the odds of that happening? 

Bernie,

You clearly understand neither the evidence nor the theory.

 

Quote

And for the eightieth time of asking...what evidence exists of where 'Lee' lived during the time 'Harvey' was in Russia?

Why do you expect us to have such evidence? The FBI wasn't looking for any of that. If any such evidence was found, it was by mistake. As is the case with the other evidence pointing to two Oswalds.

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Jim Hargrove]

 

[Jim Hargrove]

EXECUTIVE SESSION

ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 22, 1978

 

House of Representatives,
John F. Kennedy Subcommittee
of the Select Committee on
Assassinations,
Washington, D.C.

[. . . . ]

TESTIMONY OF JAMES B. WILCOTT, A FORMER EMPLOYEE
OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY:

Mr. Goldsmith. For the record, would you please state your name and address and occupation?

Mr. Wilcott. My name is James B. Wilcott. My address is 2761 Atlantic Street, in Concord, and my occupation is electronic technician.

[ . . . . ]

Mr. Goldsmith. And, Mr. Wilcott, is it true that you are a former employee with the CIA and that you are here today testifying voluntarily without a subpoena?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. During what years did you work for the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. I worked from the years, May, of 1957 to, April, of 1966.

Mr. Goldsmith. And in what general capacity did you work with the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. All in the finance--in accounting all of the time.

[. . . .]

Mr. Goldsmith. Drawing your attention to the period immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy, at that time, did you come across any information concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's relationship with the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I did.

Mr. Goldsmith. And will you tell the Committee what that relationship was?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, it was my understanding that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee of the agency and was an agent of the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. What do you mean by the term "agent?"

Mr. Wilcott. That he was a regular employee, receiving a full-time salary for agent work for doing CIA operational work.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did this information concerning Oswald first come to your attention?

Mr. Wilcott. The first time I heard about Oswald being connected in any way with CIA was the day after the Kennedy assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And how did that come to your attention?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I was on day duty for the station. It was a guard-type function at the station, which I worked for overtime. There was a lot of excitement going on at the station after the Kennedy assassination. Towards the end of my tour of duty, I heard certain things about Oswald somehow being connected with the agency, and I didn't really believe this when I heard it, and I thought it was absurd. Then, as time went on, I began to hear more things in that line.

Mr. Goldsmith. I think we had better go over that one more time. When, exactly, was the very first time that you heard or came across information that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I heard references to it the day after the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who made these references to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. I can't remember the exact persons. There was talk about it going on at the station, and several months following at the station.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people made this reference to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. At least--there was at least six or seven people, specifically, who said that they either knew or believed Oswald to be an agent of the CIA.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was Jerry Fox one of the people that made this allegation?

Mr. Wilcott. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who is Jerry Fox?

Mr. Wilcott. Jerry Fox was a Case Officer for his branch, the Soviet Russia Branch, [REDACTED] Station, who purchased information from the Soviets.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, did I ask you to prepare a list of CIA Case Officers working at the [REDACTED] Station in 1963?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, you did. [Witness then recites a lengthy list of case officers and station names, quite a few redacted in this document--jh]

[. . . .]

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time that this allegation first came to your attention, did you discuss it with anyone?

Mr. Wilcott. Oh, yes. I discussed it with my friends and the people that I was associating with socially.

Mr. Goldsmith. Who were your friends that you discussed this with?

Mr. Wilcott. [REDACTED] George Breen, Ed Luck, and [REDACTED].

Mr. Goldsmith. Who was George Breen?

Mr. Wilcott. George Breen was a person in Registry, who was my closest friend while I was in [REDACTED].

Mr. Goldsmith. Was he a CIA employee?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, he was.

Mr. Goldsmith. And would he corroborate your observation that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I don't know.

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time that this allegation first came to your attention, did you learn the name of Oswald's Case Officer at the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. No.

Mr. Goldsmith. Were there any other times during your stay with the CIA at [REDACTED] Station that you came across information that Oswald had been a CIA agent?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. When was that?

Mr. Wilcott. The specific incident was soon after the Kennedy assassination, where an agent, a Case Officer--I am sure it was a Case Officer--came up to my window to draw money, and he specifically said in the conversation that ensued, he specifically said, "Well, Jim, the money that I drew the last couple of weeks ago or so was money" either for the Oswald project or for Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember the name of this Case Officer?

Mr. Wilcott. No, I don't.

Mr Goldsmith. Do you remember when specifically this conversation took place?

Mr. Wilcott. Not specifically, only generally.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many months after the assassination was this?

Mr. Wilcott. I think it must have been two or three omths [sic] after the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And do you remember were this conversation took place?

Mr. Wilcott. It was right at my window, my disbursing cage window.

Mr. Goldsmith. Did you discuss this information with anyone?

Mr. Wilcott. Oh, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. With whom?

Mr. Wilcott. Certainly with George Breen, [REDACTED] the circle of social friends that we had.

Mr. Goldsmith. How do you spell [REDACTED] last name?

Mr. Wilcott. [REDACTED] (spelling).

[. . . .]

Mr. Goldsmith. Did this Case Officer tell you what Oswald's cryptonym was?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, he mentioned the cryptonym specifically under which the money was drawn.

Mr. Goldsmith. And what did he tell you the cryptonym was?

Mr. Wilcott. I cannot remember.

Mr. Goldsmith. What was your response to this revelation as to what Oswald's cryptonym was? Did you write it down or do anything?

Mr. Wilcott. No; I think that I looked through my advance book--and I had a book where the advances on project were run, and I leafed through them, and I must have at least leafed through them to see if what he said was true.

[Three pages of discussion about Wilcott's "Request for Advance" book follows but is omitted here. --jh]

Mr. Goldsmith. And for purposes of clarification, now, if Oswald was already dead at the time that you went to this book, why did you go back and examine the book?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I am sorry--if Oswald was what?

Mr. Goldsmith. At the time you went to look at the book, Oswald was already dead, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is right.

Mr. Goldsmith. Why did you go back to look at the book?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, the payments that were made especially to substations like Oswald's was operated--it was a substation of the [REDACTED] Station, and they had one in [REDACTED] and they had one in [REDACTED]--and it may be six months or even a year after the initial allocation that the final accounting for those funds were submitted, and they would operate out of revolving funds or out of their own personal funds in many cases.

Mr. Goldsmith. So, is your testimony then that even though Oswald was already dead at the time, the book might have contained a reference to either Oswald or the Oswald project and that that reference would have been to a period six months or even a year earlier, is that correct?

Mr. Wilcott. That is correct.

[As far as I can determine from this 54-page typed document, HSCA Counsel Michael Goldsmith never asks Wilcott the essential question, which would be: "Was the Oswald cryptonym you no longer recall in your "Request for Advance" book?" Strange. The most relevant testimony is found on pages 18-19, as follows. --jh]

Mr. Goldsmith. But as a matter of routine, would the CIA cash disbursement files refer to the cryptonym of either the person or the project that is receiving funds?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, I am sure somewhere.

Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, there would be that reference? Do you believe that there was such a reference to Oswald?

[Mr. Wilcott.] Yes, I do, and I believe there was such a reference.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mathias,

Do you therefore believe that the other plots had their Mexico Cities?

 

Sandy,

yes, I think that is possible, at least in the case of Lopez:

"Like Oswald, Lopez was also of interest to Naval Intelligence. Also similar to Oswald, Gilberto Lopez made a mysterious trip to Mexico City in the fall of 1963, attempting to get to Cuba. Lopez even used the same border crossing as Oswald, and government reports say both went by car, though neither man owned a car. Like Oswald, Lopez had recently separated from his wife and had gotten into a fist-fight in the summer of 1963 over supposedly pro-Castro sympathies.

Declassified Warren Commission and CIA documents confirm that Lopez, whose movements parallel Oswald in so many ways in 1963, was on a secret "mission" for the US involving Cuba, an "operation" so secret that the CIA felt that protecting it was considered more important than thoroughly investigating the JFK assassination. Our high Florida law-enforcement source confirmed that Lopez was an asset for another agency, though he did not say whether Lopez was a "witting" or "unwitting" asset)."

--> Ultimate Sacrifice, page 305

"Oswald was linked to Lopez via Informant reports of a visit by Oswald to Tampa and someone with its small Fair Play for Cuba Committe chapter, the same Group Lopez visited on November 17,1963, the day before JFK's Tampa trip."

 

Interesting. Thanks.

Thanks to DJ too.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

TESTIMONY OF JAMES B. WILCOTT, A FORMER EMPLOYEE

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/james-wilcott.html

[W. Tracy Parnell]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

During the Fall semester of 8th grade, he attended both Public School 44 in NYC and Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans simultaneously. We know it was simultaneous because he attended close to the full semester at both. This is what the school records show.

During the first half of the Fall semester of 9th grade, he attended both Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans and Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth simultaneously. Attendance at Stripling is known through multiple eyewitnesses. The records were taken by the FBI and haven't been seen since.

Your statement is not supported by the preponderance of the evidence. You believe that the school records show this, but even if they do there is a mountain of other evidence against 2 Oswalds. LHO never attended Stripling, the witnesses are mistaken. Kudlaty says records were taken but if they were they were records for Robert Oswald who did attend Stripling. But as is always the case, if someone says something that fits the H&L theory  it becomes a fact regardless of any other evidence.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Greg Parker has responded again to Sandy Larsen & Jim Hargrove:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1500-one-more-attempt-at-those-darn-school-records

A reminder to the H&L crowd-in order to read an explanation you have to click on the link.

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by W. Tracy Parnell