A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Bernie Laverick]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Oh my god. Oswald's background was going to to junior high school, high school, and working at some jobs, and then in the Marines. Obviously the KGB would focus on his adult years, which wouldn't be much.

In reality, yes, there were intelligence connections. There was no way of escaping that. But OBVIOUSLY, einstein, steps were taken to keep those connections hidden. Jeez.

(What a piece of work.)

What by having his doppelganger buy some trucks using his own name? How is that hiding his 'connections'? This is what the H&L cult do. They tell you there is no evidence of a 'Lee' during Harvey's time in Russia because obviously that would have blown the whole thing. I get that. It's dishonest, but it is a consistent argument; it may even have had some credibility but one of your cornerstone beliefs in the two Oswalds now has the same doppelganger you've spent years telling us had to be kept under wraps out buying stuff and publically using his real name.

Why would they do that?

Not one of you has the integrity or basic honesty to address this very simple point. Why were 'his' handlers so reckless and Keystone Cops-like in allowing this to happen?

(You really ought to see someone about your obsession with Einstein. Repeating his name on every post doesn't make you as clever as him you know...)

[Bernie Laverick]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Bernie,

Do you think that there were KGB agents at Bolton Ford?

For the sake of argument I'll concede and agree with you, that some KGB agent might have seen Lee Oswald there and might have reported that back to KGB headquarters.

Do you seriously believe that the KGB might have suspected that the Lee Oswald living in New Orleans might be the same Lee Oswald they had living there in Minsk?

I mean jeez, Bernie... think. Think!

 

Do you seriously believe that the KGB might have suspected that the Lee Oswald living in New Orleans might be the same Lee Oswald they had living there in Minsk?

I know! What a ridiculous thing to think!!! The very idea that there could be two Oswalds! Of course, the Russians weren't that stupid. Who is? But they would want to know everything they could about him, and would be very suspicious if a look-alikey was using the same name for anti Castro activities. It hardly puts them off the trail does it? Particularly when we learn that for the rest of the time 'Harvey' is in Russia there is absolutely no trace of 'Lee', just this one appearance to buy trucks apparently using his real name, though no proof of that exists, and anyway the person concerned is demonstrably tinier than your strapping sporty marine. And that comes from your star witness, the one who has inspired this fantasy episode. But the bit you don't like - his height - you simply say he was mistaken. Was he mistaken when he said the person looked like he "needed a meal".

It wasn't 'Lee'; grow up and get over yourselves!

Edited September 5, 2017 by Bernie Laverick

[Michael Walton]

1 hour ago, Bernie Laverick said:

It wasn't 'Lee'; grow up and get over yourselves!

Ha I  know my reply here is not adding  to  the  narrative  but just wanted to  say this a REALLY FUNNY line...

[David Josephs]

Some visuals to help separate the 2 men using the Oswald name

Harvey's skeleton is different than Lee's in that his shoulders are squared off whereas Lee's are sloped downward.

Furthermore... not a single detractor wants to address the obvious physical changes to Oswald after the Marines...

The 71" 150-165 lb man somehow shrinks like he did during puberty...  he drops a few inches and 20-30 lbs...

So yeah, if you think these two men are the same person...  

[Bernie Laverick]

Fed up with the Bolton Ford fiasco we now move on to the riveting story of the sloping shoulders. AGAIN!!!

You see the two photos you posted with the lines drawn on them? Do you see them? Ok, now tell me that those two individuals don't look remarkably similar (if not identical) notwithstanding the sloping shoulders! There is a very slight difference that is totally consistent with the differing ages of the one and only LHO. One (Slopey) looks like a late teenage version of the other (Squarey). Because that is what it is!

I dare you to state that facially, they look totally different. You really don't want to do you? But you must because the consequences of not doing so bring this whole house of sloping shoulders crashing to the ground.

Who would have thought that two random, unrelated people could grow up to look so similar? It does happen. But now factor in that these two were both chosen at adolescence to create a composite character for some future espionage activity and coincidentally, and with unbelievable good fortune for the planners, they grow into adulthood almost identical as you have just demonstrated...sloping shoulders notwithstanding! 

Imagine the dialogue when one of the handlers approaches his superior to brief him on the ongoing project. 

"You're not going to believe this Sir. You remember the two adolescents we recruited to create a fictitious paper trail should one of them defect to the USSR? Well...just look at them now!"

Now watch David Josephs try and 'prove' that they don't look anything like each other. I mean, one has sloping shoulders for Christ's sake! And anyway 'Lee' was much taller and more muscular than 'Harvey'...except when he's buying trucks, of course. Then he shrinks and looks like he "needs a good meal"!

Comedy gold!

 

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Bernie Laverick said:

What by having his doppelganger buy some trucks using his own name? How is that hiding his 'connections'? This is what the H&L cult do. They tell you there is no evidence of a 'Lee' during Harvey's time in Russia because obviously that would have blown the whole thing. I get that. It's dishonest, but it is a consistent argument; it may even have had some credibility but one of your cornerstone beliefs in the two Oswalds now has the same doppelganger you've spent years telling us had to be kept under wraps out buying stuff and publically using his real name.

Why would they do that?

Not one of you has the integrity or basic honesty to address this very simple point. Why were 'his' handlers so reckless and Keystone Cops-like in allowing this to happen?

 

In late 1960 CIA asset Marita Lorenz was in a Miami CIA safehouse with members of her group and met LEE Harvey Oswald for the first time. The HSCA interviewed her and asked about her first meeting with Oswald:
 

Mr. Fithian: "Now is it your testimony that the first time you saw Oswald would have been in the camps in the Everglades?"
Marita Lorenz: "The very first time, no. I saw him in the Safehouse and then in the camps."
Mr. Fithian: "And that first meeting at the Safehouse would have been within a year of the Bay of Pigs?"
Marita Lorenz: "I would say 1960."
Mr. Fithian: "It would be some time during 1960?"
Marita Lorenz: "Late 1960."
Mr. Fithian: "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of LEE Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "The next time or times that you saw him were during training at a camp in the Everglades, various places in the Everglades, in early 1960, 1961 period?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "And after that you saw him at the Safehouse the second time?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "What makes you so sure of the dates. Within a year of the first meeting in the Safehouse and the meeting at the camps in the Everglades, is there anything else you could match that up with?"
Marita Lorenz: "The photographs, the events that took place. the photographs that Alex (Rorke) took. Everywhere we went Alex took pictures."
Mr. Fithian: "This was prior to the Bay of Pigs?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, April, 1961, was the Bay of Pigs."
Mr. Fithian: "And you are sure you saw him (Oswald) before April, 1961."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, because Alex took the pictures."
Mr. Fithian: "And the whole purpose of the training was to somehow participate or help in the Bay of Pigs.
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "Did you see Oswald at any time in the intervening two years between early 1961 prior to April of 1961 and the September-October Safehouse meeting in 1963?"
Marita Lorenz: "No, but Frank (Sturgis) kept in touch with me. Alex kept in touch with me."
Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, has your attorney explained what perjury before a congressional committee is all about?"
Marita Lorenz: "That is right, yes."
Mr. Fithian: "In any way do you want to change your testimony on these dates?"
Marita Lorenz: "No, I do not."
Mr. Fithian: "There is adequate documentary evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald did not indeed return from the Soviet Union until June of 1962.
Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian: "Therefore you could not have met him at the Safehouse in 1960, you could not have seen him in the Everglades in 1960 and 1961, and you could not have taken a picture in those areas and could not have a picture for the dates of that time." 
Marita Lorenz: "No?"
Mr. Fithian: "It is not possible."
Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian: "Now can you explain to the committee why you gave us this false information as far as dates?"
Marita Lorenz: "I did not give you false information."
Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, I went over your testimony very carefully a moment ago and you assured me that you met Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the Bay of Pigs."
Marita Lorenz: "I did."
Mr. Fithian: "On two occasions."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "Lee Harvey Oswald was in Russia during that entire period."
Marita Lorenz: "I do not know that. I did not know that. The Lee Harvey Oswald that I met was the same in that picture, the one in the Safehouse. the same one that Frank knows. I do not know where he was according to your information. I do not know. I never read up on anything about these theories that are coming out about him."
Mr. Fithian: "This is not a matter of theory."
Marita Lorenz: "I know I am telling the truth. If you don't want it, that's too bad, you know. I am here to gain nothing, you know. Nothing. Nothing at all. You are trying a homicide investigation that should be solved, you know. Don't dispute me or put me on trial."
Mr. Fithian: "Only if we can have full and truthful testimony."
Marita Lorenz: "You have got it. You have it from me. I don't know about the other people. I have nothing to lose and nothing to hide-nothing.
Mr. Fithian: "And it is your testimony that you are certain that the person you met at the Safehouse and at the camps of the Everglades is the same person that you met in Dallas."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, it is."
Mr. Fithian: "Do you have any explanation for how we come up with two Lee Harvey Oswalds during this period?"
Marita Lorenz: "I have no explanation. I know the man I met; he was a creep. I didn't like him. I don't have to be here at all. I have nothing to gain. 
Mr. Fithian: "Thank you. That is all."

 

NOTE: CIA asset/photographer Alex Rorke  had taken photos of LEE Oswald in Florida (1960-61) while HARVEY Oswald was in the Soviet Union. Rorke died in an airplane crash in Mexico in May 1964, along with Hugh Ward, DeLessups Morrison (former Mayor of New Orleans), his 7-year-old son Christopher, Daleigh Pellegrin and Ovide Cenac.

 

H&L critics here, of course, will all say Marita Lorenz was unreliable, but they were strangely silent when Douglas Caddy recently began this lengthy thread Ms. Lorenz here:

 

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Bernie Laverick said:

Fed up with the Bolton Ford fiasco we now move on to the riveting story of the sloping shoulders. AGAIN!!!

Dear Readers: If Mr. Laverick says it ain't so, you can bet it IS so!  Click this link to read the truth about the Bolton Ford incident:

http://harveyandlee.net/Misc/Bolton.html

 

[Michael Walton]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

So yeah, if you think these two men are the same person

He has his arms behind his back in the Marine photo, David.  It could make your shoulders slope downward more.  I already addressed the passport (I think it's the passport photo) with the Dallas mugshot and it's spot on - the same person. Two others who no longer post on the Gems thread saw my animated GIF and agreed with me. Even Hargrove kinda/sorta agreed but of course Larsen - who has swallowed this tale hook, line, and sinker with absolutely no wiggle room - completely disagreed. He did sound a little desperate (e.g., "BUT JIM....") LOL

Can't people change, David? He was skinny before the Marines (probably underfed since his Mom and he were scrounging around) and bulked up when joining the Marines - the way they work you out in boot camp would beef up even the skinniest of runts. Then he went to Russia and came back and it was probably more of the same - less eating and no longer working out.

My goodness - those photos are the same person, David.  Do you really, truly not see it? It does amaze me how well you wrote that MC story and fall for this fairy tale so miserably.

I think, too, you are being very clever and dishonest the way you have that one photo labeled "5-10 165" as if that proves there are two people with different heights.  Bill Simpich clearly explained how the taller height came into being in "State Secret" and it has absolutely nothing to do with a clone. I know you know this being the researcher you are so it's even more surprising you're trying to manipulate the story here to fit the round peg into the square hole.

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Some visuals to help separate the 2 men using the Oswald name

Harvey's skeleton is different than Lee's in that his shoulders are squared off whereas Lee's are sloped downward.

Furthermore... not a single detractor wants to address the obvious physical changes to Oswald after the Marines...

The 71" 150-165 lb man somehow shrinks like he did during puberty...  he drops a few inches and 20-30 lbs...

So yeah, if you think these two men are the same person...  

Thanks for posting this, DJ.  The shoulders look like a tell to me.  And isn't it amazing how "Lee Harvey Oswald" lost 2 full inches in height after leaving the Marines.  But you've really upset Mr. Laverick, who is here to put a stop to all this Harvey and Lee evidence.    

[Bernie Laverick]

"In late 1960 CIA asset Marita Lorenz was in a Miami CIA safehouse with members of her group and met LEE Harvey Oswald for the first time. The HSCA interviewed her and asked about her first meeting with Oswald:"

Why was he in a safe house? What reason did they keep him there? So he wouldn't be spotted and his cover blown?

Except when his handlers needed him to buy some trucks and INSISTED he use his own name....

ha ha ha!!

Please grow up!

[Jim Hargrove]

H&L Critics Fail to
Debunk Bolton Ford

H&L critics like Jeremy Bojczuk and Bernie Laverick want you to believe that just any old “Lee Harvey Oswald” appeared at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans on January 20, 1961, when another “Lee Harvey Oswald” was living in the Soviet Union.  Messrs. Bojczuk and Laverick want you to believe that, according to an FBI report, one of the Bolton Ford salesmen who met with Oswald “was exhibited a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD and he said he cannot recall ever having seen him before….” 

The H&L critics don’t want you to know that the bogus FBI summation clearly contradicts the FBI airtel of 12/19/63 sent directly to J. Edgar Hoover that clearly indicates that the Bolton salesman, whose name was Oscar Deslatte, was telling everyone around town that he had met “SUBJECT: LEE HARVEY OSWALD” at his dealership.  Messrs. Bojczuk and Laverick want you to believe that Deslatte must have been the only man in America who hadn’t seen a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television and print media.  Here’s the FBI report:

 

Oscar Deslatte’s boss at Bolton Ford was Fred Sewell.  Sewell told Jim Garrision how his assistant brought the matter to his attention immediately after the assassination:

 

Of course, the H&L critics want us to believe that Fred Sewell was just making this up.  They also want you to believe that Sewell was fibbing when he said the FBI didn’t show them any photographs of Oswald.

 

As if this all isn’t embarrassing enough for  Messrs. Bojczuk and Laverick, they next go on to pretend that it is just an Amazing Coincidence® about the Bolton Ford bid form and the names written on it.  Let’s take another look at that form.

 

 

The name “Oswald” is written on the form, and so is “Friends of Democratic Cuba.”  Now here’s where the comedy comes in.  The H&L critics want you to believe that it was just another Amazing Coincidence® that the officers of the “Friends of Democratic Cuba” included “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” former employer Gerard Tugague, and W. Guy Banister, the former Chicago FBI head who famously worked with “Lee Harvey Oswald” on the streets of New Orleans in the summer of 1963.

These H&L critics have a real gift for comedy.  Not only do they want you to believe it was some unknown “Oswald” who went to the Bolton Ford dealership in 1961, they also want you to forget that it was none other than Carlos Bringuier, “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” radio debate partner, who brought the whole matter of Oscar Deslatte’s big mouth to the attention of the Secret Service and the FBI.

 

Messrs. Bojczuk and Laverick are desperate to make you think none of this means a thing.  Now that’s comedy!  And dedication!

To read the truth about the Bolton Ford incident, follow this link:

http://harveyandlee.net/Misc/Bolton.html

[Mathias Baumann]

On ‎05‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 2:36 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Hi, Mathias,

I don’t know what to make of Thornley.  Jim Garrison thought he was lying about not meeting “Oswald” in New Orleans, and John thinks he was lying about not meeting “Oswald” in Dallas, and so I’m inclined to think he was probably lying about not meeting “Oswald” somewhere, and perhaps everywhere.  But it may have been just because he was afraid to be involved and wasn't a very bright bulb, though he may have been involved in some suspicious activity AFTER the assassination which is escaping me at the moment.  Do you have more incriminating information?

Hello Jim,

when Oswald applied for a job in New Orleans in the spring of 1963 he gave his height as 5’ 9”, which coincidentally is the exact height of Kerry Thornley (and which he misstated to the Warren Commission! He claimed Oswald had been shorter than him when in fact he was TALLER than Thornley.)

By his own admission he knew Guy Banister and David Ferrie, became friends with John Roselli, wrote a book about Oswald BEFORE the assassination and was passing through Mexico at the time Oswald visited the Russian and Cuban embassies there.

Thornley could also have been the Oswald doppelganger at the Mexican Consulate in New Orleans who asked if "he could take a gun to Mexico", according to witness Fenella Farrington.

[Michael Walton]

Mathias, read Thornley's wiki page. Do you really think it's  worth even discussing? He knew LHO fleetingly then being  a  clever person wrote about it to make a buck, like Hargrove is trying to keep this silly story on the up and up so suckers keep buying the $60 fairy tale.

That's  all there is about Thornley and why you're  asking Hargrove, as if he's  a huge fount of knowledge about the case  is beyond me. Look around as he only cares about this silly nonsense.

[Sandy Larsen]

17 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Some visuals to help separate the 2 men using the Oswald name

Harvey's skeleton is different than Lee's in that his shoulders are squared off whereas Lee's are sloped downward.

 

David,

You know, if I were a KGB agent and happened to be at Bolton Ford when the guy on the right was trying to buy trucks, and if I'd overheard him call himself Lee Oswald, my first thought would have been, hey, isn't that the guy who defected to Russia?

So I'd get some photos of him if I could and I'd contact KGB headquarters and inform them that I might have seen the defector guy, right here in New Orleans.

Of course, they'd inform me that, no, my guy must be a different Lee Oswald, because the one who defected was still right there in Minsk.

Ah, but I'd know better. Cuz see, I'd have a brain like Bernie's and I'd understand espionage. I'd know this guy must be a double for that defector in Minsk. I mean, how else could could their identical names be explained?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

[deleted]

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Sandy Larsen