A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/28/2017 at 1:43 PM, Thomas Graves said:

"Dear James"

To freshen your memory, we were talking about Hungarian "Harvey's" incredibly good English syntax, grammar, and vocabulary, not his Russian language skills.

He spoke and wrote pretty darn good English for a (dyslexic?) boy whose "mother tongue" was Hungarian  (a Central Asian-based, non-Indo-European language), and who, at a young age, learned the Indo-European but highly "inflected" (look it up) Russian language, and then somehow mastered the also Indo-European but not highly inflected English language!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection#English

Russian has six "cases" (look up that grammatical term), whereas English (which centuries ago was highly inflected) has only 2 1/2 "mishmashed" ones.  

That's why word order is important in English.  "Active voice" (look up that grammatical term) uses classic Subject - Verb - Object  word order; "Passive voice"  uses Object - Verb - Subject word order (which is preferred by lawyers, btw - LOL).

In a Slavic language like Russian, word order is not so important (except for emphasizing different words in the sentence); that's why Russian people who are learning English often utter sentences that seem "all mixed up" to us, word-order-wise.

Two other differences to bear in mind are that English has something like 18 or 21 "tenses" (look it up), whereas Russian only has three or five (depending on how you define "tense"), and that English uses "articles" (look it up), i.e. "a" "an" and "the", whereas Slavic languages like Russian do not, which would explain why my Czech students made so many mistakes in trying to use them correctly while speaking English.  (That's why whenever I hear someone having problems with the words "a" "an" and  / or "the", I immediately suspect, especially if I can hear a Slavic accent, that they are from a Slavic country like Poland, the Czech Republic, or Russia, for example.)

It's interesting to note that your Hungarian "Harvey" who had "learned Russian at an early age" didn't make mistakes regarding word order , tenses, or the use of the aforementioned "articles" when speaking or writing in English.  Which leads me to believe that he was born in the U.S., and that English was his "mother tongue."

--  Tommy

PS  It seems to me that your Precious Professor was full of high-falutin' "book-learning," but was woefully inexperienced with "hands on" learning.  Like being raised in La Jolla, California (home of UCSD and the Salk Institute, etc), hitch-hiking to Alaska, driving a taxi cab for five years in San Diego and Scottsdale, Arizona, going to lawschool for one year -- and not flunking out! --, and teaching "conversational English" to Czech people for seven years, in ... the Czech Republic.

Oh, yeah, and having to learn some Czech, myself, like "Another beer, please," and ... "Where's the restroom?"

PPS  "And blah-blah-blah," yourself, professor.

bumped

[Michael Walton]

Tom Graves

Based on any sound sound recordings can you  detect any kind of accent when listening  to Oswald including  his TV interviews?

[Michael Walton]

Hargrove: because he was in the brig.

Wow, a very convenient reason for why the clone wasn't  seen, recognized, or mentioned. But what about before or after he was out of  the  brig?

Do you  have  some kind of script taped to  your  monitor  as a fallback to questions  and concerns  regarding  this caper?

You  keep  saying  all of this is  based on evidence and we have none but why would yours be any more superior? And I  still want  to  see Harvey's service  number  for genuine  proof. There's  just  no way a clone  would  be living  day to day in the military  without  one.

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Of course, Walton and Parnell ignore the evidence that Harvey Oswald was isolated from other soldiers at Atsugi because he was being held in the brig.

Walton and Parnell also seem to be under the misconception that there isn’t a great deal of other evidence for Two Oswalds serving simultaneously in the USMC. Because of the careful record-keeping of the Marine Corps, it was impossible to hide all the conflicting records.  For example:
 

LEE OSWALD. In February, 1957 LEE Oswald took leave and resided with his tall, nice-looking mother in her apartment at 3830 W. 6th in Ft. Worth. Mrs. Oswald was working at Clyde Campbell's Men's Store in Ft. Worth. It was during this trip that LEE's brother, Robert Oswald, introduced him to his new wife (Vada) for the first time. Following his leave, LEE Oswald was assigned to the Naval Air Station (Aviation Fundamentals School) in Jacksonville, FL from March 18 through May 2. After graduating LEE Oswald and 5 other marines were ordered to report to Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, MS (radar school). They departed Jacksonville, FL by train on May 2 and arrived in Biloxi, MS on May 4. Marine Corps Unit Diary 105-57 (p 722) confirms that LEE Oswald departed Jacksonville for Biloxi, Mississippi on May 2. Daniel Patrick Powers was in charge of the 6-member group and, reading from his orders, told the Warren Commission that his group reported to the 3383rd student squadron, attended class # 08057 and received instruction in course # AB27037. After graduating on June 17 they were assigned military occupation specialty 6467--early warning system for radar. Curiously, and without explanation, the Course Curriculum, as published by the WC (Folsom Ex 1, p 117), shows that Powers' group received instruction in course # AB27730 and their class convened on April 24, 1957, eleven days before Powers and his group arrived in Biloxi.

HARVEY OSWALD. Allen Felde told the FBI that he and HARVEY Oswald remained in California (San Diego & Camp Pendleton) until May, 1957, and were then transferred to the A&P school in Jacksonville, FL. Marine Corps Unit Diary #104-57 (pp 719, 724) confirms that Felde arrived in Jacksonville, FL on May 2, 1957. These Marine Corps records show that Felde, and possibly HARVEY Oswald, arrived in Jacksonville, FL the same day that Powers, LEE Oswald, and their group departed Jacksonville for Keesler AFB in Biloxi, MS. Following the assassination of President Kennedy the Dallas Police found a 7-page handwritten account of Oswald's background. HARVEY wrote that he had served in San Diego, CA from October 1956, to April, 1957 and at Camp Pendleton in April and May, 1957. Felde's statement to the FBI, HARVEY Oswald's handwritten chronology, and the Marine Corps Unit diary confirm that Oswald (HARVEY) and Felde were in California and did not arrive in Jacksonville, FL until May 2, 1957. Their assignments at Camp Pendleton, California through May 2 contradict both Marine Corp records and the WC who said that Oswald was in Jacksonville, FL from March 18 through May 2. In other words, HARVEY Oswald and Felde were in ITR training in California while LEE Oswald, Powers, and members of their group were at Aviation Fundamentals School in Jacksonville, FL.

For those unaware of the sheer volume of evidence for two different Lee Harvey Oswalds serving simultaneously in the USMC,  see the massive amount of documentation presented in Harvey and Lee.

Bumped for Michael Walton.  Do you think you could possibly answer your own question if you just read the FBI report above?

[Thomas Graves]

4 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Tom Graves

Based on any sound sound recordings can you  detect any kind of accent when listening  to Oswald including  his TV interviews?

Michael,

I hear a little Southern twang or drawl creep in from time to time.  Nothing suspicious about that at all, in fact it is so different-sounding from Hungarian or a Slavic language (e.g. Russian)  as to make him appear (to me at least) to be even less capable of being the boy who learned Hungarian, then Russian, and finally a little English, i.e., "Harvey" in the "Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites" theory. 

The U.S.-born Lee Harvey Oswald not only sounds like a "Born In The U.S.A" guy (putting stress on the proper syllables, inflecting his voice as we do, etc.), but also exhibits mastery of English grammar, e.g. the proper use of the "articles"  a, an, and the, something that is nearly impossible for a native Slavic language-speaker (like Russian) to master.

Etc.

He sounds 100% American to me, although a slightly affected, overly "intellectual" and "mature" for a 23-year-old who's just tryin' to get some respect from the Big Boys and the listenin' audience, I reken'.

--  Tommy

Edited April 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

Of course, Vladimir Petrov, head of the Slavic Language Department at Yale University, had a different opinion.  In a letter to John Tower in regard from a letter purportedly written by Oswald, Petrov said, “ I am satisfied that letter was not written by him [Harvey Oswald]. It was written by a Russian with an imperfect knowledge of English.”

Petrov’s letter was written on Dec 8, 1963, a little more than two weeks after the  assassination.  Despite the fact that he said his opinion was “based on a quotation from his [Oswald’s] January 1962 letter,” Petrov’s letter surely wasn’t written in a vacuum, insulated from the news of the day.

In the days after the assassination, that weird voice of Harvey Oswald’s—hardly sounding like the accent of a Good Ole Boy born and raised in the American South—was all over the radio and television airwaves.  I doubt it could be missed, even in the high ivory tower of the Head of Slavic Languages at Yale.

I don’t know if any of the Russian writings of Harvey Oswald made it to the public immediately after the assassination, but if Petrov had a clue about Harvey’s uncommon mastery of the Russian language—which amazed the Russian immigrants in Dallas who met him—it would have given additional ammunition to his theory.  There seems little reason to believe Dr. Petrov’s basis for his opinion completely ignored the around-the-clock news coverage of the assassination.

[Michael Clark]

8 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I don't know if any of the Russian writings of Harvey Oswald made it to the public immediately after the assassination, 

Jim, do you have any idea if CE 1 was made public early-on?

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_1.pdf

Cheers,

Michael

[Thomas Graves]

Edited April 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Walton and Parnell also seem to be under the misconception that there isn’t a great deal of other evidence for Two Oswalds serving simultaneously in the USMC. Because of the careful record-keeping of the Marine Corps, it was impossible to hide all the conflicting records.

The H&L gang seems to not understand that when people report their remembrances to the FBI or other agency that they are making their best guess as to the time. But unless they have a diary or other documentation to refer to it is just that a guess. William Trail remembered LHO being in the brig, he was just a little off on the timing. LHO went in the brig on June 29 and was released on August 13. Trail’s memory was actually pretty good and he remember LHO again during 1959 at Santa Ana when he was indeed there. Armstrong had the LHO “being different” thing highlighted, but Trail was referring to LHO showing off his superior knowledge to others which we know the historic Oswald did.

Similarly, Felde’s recollections were no doubt sincerely provided but mistaken. He recounted his own service and assumed that LHO was with him the entire time which was not the case. Likewise, LHO’s notes are wrong. This is why people keep diaries and and other documentation because memory is fallible. Another point-this is why Hargrove and company argue so violently about Japan and the LA/NY school records. Because they think in those cases they have “documentation” of H&L and know that the vast majority of the time they do not and their points are witness based only.  In other words, 99% of the time either "Harvey" or "Lee" is doing what the historic LHO was doing while his doppelganger is doing what a witness reported. 

[Michael Walton]

Tom twang....

Although  I'm  deaf with a hearing aid I  recall hearing that twang in the NO interview.

I'm  confused  is that one actually supposed  to  be  the Hungarian  or the th US born one?

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

Jim, do you have any idea if CE 1 was made public early-on?

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_1.pdf

Cheers,

Michael

It’s just a guess, but since that Russian letter tended to make LHO look guilty for the Walker shooting, it might have been shown early, especially since Hoover knew the bullet evidence was bogus.  I was always suspicious of that letter, but there is a lot of other Russian-language stuff allegedly from Oswald in evidence.  It just doesn’t seem likely to me that Harvey Oswald would have learned that much by reading a Russian dictionary in his USMC spare time and spending 2-1/2 years working full-time in a Minsk factory.

De Mohrenschildt said Oswald preferred Russian to English and read Russian classics in the original Russian.  Hell, I had a hard time getting through War and Peace in English!

[Michael Clark]

1 minute ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It’s just a guess, but since that Russian letter tended to make LHO look guilty for the Walker shooting, it might have been shown early, especially since Hoover knew the bullet evidence was bogus.  I was always suspicious of that letter, but there is a lot of other Russian-language stuff allegedly from Oswald in evidence.  It just doesn’t seem likely to me that Harvey Oswald would have learned that much by reading a Russian dictionary in his USMC spare time and spending 2-1/2 years working full-time in a Minsk factory.

De Mohrenschildt said Oswald preferred Russian to English and read Russian classics in the original Russian.  Hell, I had a hard time getting through War and Peace in English!

Thanks Jim, After putting my handwriting analysis hat on top of my Russian penmanship hat, (I felt kind of silly), I concluded that LHO did not write CE 1.

Cheers,

Michael

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Tom twang....

Although  I'm  deaf with a hearing aid I  recall hearing that twang in the NO interview.

I'm  confused  is that one actually supposed  to  be  the Hungarian  or the th US born one?

Exactly.

--  Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Michael,

IIRC, You want my experienced opinion as to whether or not Oswald sounds like a native American-English speaker in the tape-recorded radio "debate" he participated in.

My considered reply:  I hear a little Southern twang or drawl creep in from time to time.  Nothing suspicious about that at all, in fact it is so different-sounding from Hungarian or a Slavic language (e.g. Russian)  as to make him appear (to me at least) to be even less capable of being the boy who learned Hungarian, then Russian, and finally a little English, i.e., "Harvey" in the "Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites" theory. 

The one and only Lee Harvey Oswald we're talking about here not only sounds like a "Born In The U.S.A" guy (putting stress on the proper syllables, inflecting his voice as we do, etc.), but also exhibits mastery of English grammar, e.g. the proper use of the indefinite and definite "articles"  a, an, and the, something that is nearly impossible for a native Slavic language-speaker (like Russian) to do.

Etc.

Conclusion:

He sounds 100% American to me, and like he's lived in different parts of the country that have very different regional dialects.

I must also say that his speech sounds slightly affected, i.e. "phony", in the sense that, IMHO, he's trying to sound overly "intellectual" and "mature", which I think is totally understandable given the fact he was a highly-intelligent 10th-grade-dropout who jus' be tryin' to get some r-e-s-p-e-c-t from the Big Boys in the studio an' all them critical listeners in the Listenin' Audience, I reken'.

--  Tommy

I'm gonna be so presumptuous as to give him The Boss's stamp of approval.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

The H&L gang seems to not understand that when people report their remembrances to the FBI or other agency that they are making their best guess as to the time. But unless they have a diary or other documentation to refer to it is just that a guess. William Trail remembered LHO being in the brig, he was just a little off on the timing. LHO went in the brig on June 29 and was released on August 13. Trail’s memory was actually pretty good and he remember LHO again during 1959 at Santa Ana when he was indeed there. Armstrong had the LHO “being different” thing highlighted, but Trail was referring to LHO showing off his superior knowledge to others which we know the historic Oswald did.

According to Marine Corps records, Oswald was released from the Marine brig

on August 13 and returned to active duty. A month later First Lieutenant William K.

Trail, assigned to the First Marine Air Wing, MAG II, MACS 1 in Atsugi, recalled that

when his group was preparing to depart for Taiwan Oswald and another Marine were

being held prisoners (Harvey, and possibly Paul Murphy?). Trail said the prisoners were

picked up by a "chaser" with a gun during transport to Taiwan in September.⁴⁷ But why?

 

According to Marine Corps records, Oswald was released from the brig a month

earlier, on August 13. Why would Oswald need to be picked up by a chaser with a gun

during transport to Taiwan on September 14--a month after his release from the brig?

Because Harvey Oswald, while waiting for the unit to depart for Taiwan, may

have been held in the Marine brig to keep him separate and apart from the Marines who

bunked and worked with Lee Oswald in Atsugi. His confinement would have allowed

him to safely depart for Taiwan with a different group of Marines who did not know Lee

Oswald.

 

None of the Marines who knew Lee Oswald in Atsugi, including Zack Stout,

Bobby Warren, and George Wilkins, accompanied Harvey Oswald to Taiwan. Harvey

was with a different group of Marines, who had no reason to question his identity. Some

of the same Marines who became acquainted with Harvey Oswald in Taiwan were sta­

tioned with him a few months later at MAGS 9 in Santa Ana, California.

 

--From Harvey and Lee, pp. 197-198, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong