A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

It has been suggested that both Vincent Bugliosi (in Reclaiming History) and John Armstrong (in Harvey and Lee) claimed that Oswald passed the marines Russian test. I've been through both books, and haven't yet found a reference in either book to that effect. Armstrong writes only (on p.225) that:

<blockquote>On February 25, Harvey [sic] Oswald took a Russian language exam... Test results showed that Oswald scored poorly on the exam.</blockquote>

Unless I missed something, which is entirely possible, I think it's safe to assume that the test was simply an assessment of ability, and that it is misleading to claim that Oswald passed the test. After all, neither the Warren Report nor Oswald's marine records suggest that he either passed or failed the test.

It's interesting to see exactly what Armstrong has to say about Oswald's command of Russian before and during Oswald's stay in the Soviet Union. He argues that Oswald did not study Russian before his arrival in California in December 1958. On page 187, he expresses doubts about this passage in the Warren Report (WR, p.257: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=281 ):

<blockquote>While in Atsugi, Japan, Oswald studied the Russian language, perhaps with some help from an officer in his unit who was interested in Russian and used to 'talk about it' with Oswald occasionally.</blockquote>

The Warren Report cites CE 1385, p.11 (Hearings, vol.22, p.706: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=736 ), an interview with Oswald by Aline Mosby in Moscow in November 1959, in which Oswald states: "My superiors thought I was just interested in a foreign language. My commanding officer, a major, was studying russian [sic] and we used to talk about it". It isn't unreasonable to suppose that Oswald may have had some help in learning Russian from this officer.

Armstrong argues that Oswald did not learn Russian before being stationed in California. Again on page 187:

<blockquote>None of the Marines who were on maneuvers with Oswald nor anyone who saw him in Japan said that he read or spoke Russian.</blockquote>

But this is untrue. Paul Murphy, who was stationed with Oswald at both Atsugi and Santa Ana, stated that "I remember that Oswald could speak a little Russian, even when he was overseas" (Hearings, vol.8, p.320: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=328 ). Of course, people's recollections are not always reliable, but if we apply that standard there wouldn't be much of the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' theory left.

The reason for claiming that Oswald did not learn Russian in Japan is, of course, to demonstrate that Oswald's performance in the marines test in February 1959 was not consistent with the common-sense conclusion that he was a native English speaker who had only been learning the language for a few weeks, and that the Oswald who defected must instead have been a native speaker of Russian. On page 10, Armstrong explains why the 'Oswald project' required someone who was not merely a good speaker of Russian but a native speaker of Russian:

<blockquote>One of the requirements for infiltrating an agent into a foreign country is that he/she have an intimate knowledge of the local language. ... And there is little point in sending an American agent, taught in the United States to speak a Slavic or Oriental language, to infiltrate these countries because they would speak with an accent. One way to avoid the problems of physical appearance and accent is to recruit local residents or former residents living abroad.</blockquote>

Armstrong is adamant that the Oswald who defected was a native speaker of Russian. On pages 202 and 203, he writes:

<blockquote>At this point some readers might ask, "Was such an elaborate and multi-year deception plan really necessary in order to infiltrate one person into Russia?" The answer is, quite simply, "Yes." The CIA spent years developing and training a native Russian-speaking person (Harvey) for the sole purpose of placing him in the Soviet Union. ... The infiltration of Lee Harvey Oswald into Russia at the height of the cold war was a dangerous gamble. If the Soviets ever discovered the 19-year-old American "defector" spoke the language perfectly, they would immediately suspect him of being a spy.</blockquote>

There we have it: Oswald was "a native Russian-speaking person", someone who "spoke the language perfectly". But it is clear from Oswald's "poor" performance in the Russian test, as well as the fact that he made frequent grammatical mistakes even after living in the Soviet Union among Russian speakers for nearly three years, that he was not "a native Russian-speaking person" who "spoke the language perfectly". Oswald was a native English-speaking person who began to learn Russian either in California in late 1958 or a short time earlier while stationed in Japan, and who had only a limited knowledge of the language in February 1959.

Incidentally, anyone who is interested in the apparent inconsistency in Oswald's school records should read this:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1500-one-more-attempt-at-those-darn-school-records

[Jim Hargrove]

People who attempt to debunk the obvious fact that school records show "Lee Harvey Oswald" attended school simultaneously in New York City and New Orleans usually provide a link to a private website run by Greg Parker.  Despite my many requests for people who think there is actual information at Mr. Parker's site about this subject to post the information here, they ALWAYS refuse to do so.

Why is that?  

Mr. Parker has no legitimate explanation whatsoever debunking the school records.  If you think he does, please summarize the information here for all to see. Why hide behind a link?

Whether a passing or failing label is given to the results of Harvey Oswald's militay Russian language test, the fact that he got more answers right than wrong is astounding.  According to Sandy Larsen, Vincent Bugliosi wrote: "His marks were rated 'poor' in all categories. However, since the test was designed to assess the proficiency of native speakers and students at the military's rigorous language schools, .... his grades were not that bad."

That Harvey Oswald learned Russian because he would "talk about it" with a commanding officer and  by reading Russian literature in his spare time for two months in California is simply not credible.  Does ANYONE really believe that?

As to whether Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald could pass for a native-speaking Russian, it is helpful to separate Mr. Armstrong's speculation from the actual evidence he presents.  He makes it abundantly clear that Oswald did not speak any meaningful Russian in public in the USSR . From Harvey and Lee....

Harvey Oswald spoke only English while in Russia

To learn whether or not Oswald spoke Russian while in the Soviet Union we
need only look at the statements and memories of people who knew him in Russia:

October 1959-Oswald pretended not to speak Russian while at Botkinskaya
Hospital in Moscow. One of the doctors who attended him wrote, "The pa­-
tient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian. Sometimes he
answers correctly, but immediately states that he does not understand what
he was asked."83 This clever doctor spotted, and recorded, Oswald's ability to
understand the Russian language.

January 1960--Oswald spoke no Russian when accompanied by an interpreter
to the Red Cross offices in Moscow.

1960--Oswald sought out and dated only English-speaking Russian girls and
befriended young English-speaking Russian men such as Erich Titovets, Yuri
Merezhinsky, and Pavel Golovachev. Their conversations were entirely in
English.

January 1960 thru May 1962--the entire period during which Oswald lived in
Minsk. Alejandro Ziger worked with Oswald on a daily basis at the factory. Ana
and Elenora Ziger saw Oswald "3 or 4 times a week" at their apartment. None
of the Zigers ever heard Oswald speak Russian.

1961--Only one tape recording of Lee Harvey Oswald's voice is known to ex­-
ist during the time he lived in the Soviet Union. Oswald was recorded speak­
ing English by his Russian friend, Erich Titovets, in Minsk. Titovets said that
he made the recording so that he could study Oswald's Southern accent, in
English.84

May 1961--When Stellina Ivanova learned of Oswald's marriage she said, "How
can that be? You don't know Russian well enough. How can you communicate
to this person? Does she know English?" Oswald told Stellina that Marina
knew two phrases "Switch off the light" and "kiss me, please," in English.85
It seems obvious, from her conversations with Robert Webster in 1959 and
1960, that Marina spoke English quite well.

Mid-1961 thru Dec 1961--Numerous letters written in Russian, allegedly by
Oswald to Marina, were signed by him ("Alik") but the Russian handwriting
does not appear to be Oswald's.

October 22, 1961--Oswald wrote a letter from Minsk to Marina in Kharkov. The
letter is in English while the envelope, which was addressed to Marina in
Russian script, was written by someone else.

After Oswald returned to the US his friend, Pavel Golovachev, wrote several
letters to Oswald, always in English. Marina's Russian friends wrote to her in
Russian.

Oswald's circle of friends was small and limited to English-speaking Russian
Nationals, none of whom said Oswald spoke Russian.

The KGB recorded numerous conversations within Oswald's apartment from
1960 thru 1962. If any of the conversations had been in Russian the KGB
would have noted the extent of his language ability in their reports and im­-
mediately suspected him of being a spy. But neither KGB reports nor interviews
with former KGB agents reveal that Oswald spoke Russian.

In 1995 Norman Mailer sought out and questioned people who knew Oswald
in Minsk, and with the publication of his book it finally became widely known
that Harvey Oswald spoke little or no Russian during the time he lived in
Minsk. Mailer also published transcripts of Oswald and Marina's conversa­-
tions, allegedly recorded in Oswald's apartment and transcribed by the KGB.
Unfortunately, no one outside of the Soviet Union has listened to the tapes
and the authenticity of the transcripts is unknown.

Ana Ziger told the author in 1998 that she never heard Oswald speak Russian
during the time she knew him in Minsk.

--Harvey and Lee, pp. 339-340, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong.  All rights reserved.
 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

4 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Ana Ziger told the author in 1998 that she never heard Oswald speak Russian
during the time she knew him in Minsk.

Armstrong has a talent for getting witnesses to say what he wants them to say. But three years before he spoke to Ziger she told an Argentinian publication that “Nobody could say anything [about lies LHO told] because he spoke Russian poorly Dad would translate ...” So, LHO certainly did speak Russian, albeit poorly at the time, and Alexander Ziger translated as a matter of convenience.

There is, of course, a mountain of additional evidence refuting the assertion. The definitive article debunking the claim was written by John Delane Williams.

http://johndelanewilliams.blogspot.com/2013/07/did-oswald-speak-russian-while-living.html

As Williams points out, there were dozens, if not hundreds, of individuals in Russia who could testify to the fact that LHO spoke Russian. Ernst Titovets knew LHO well in Russia and stated that he spoke Russian. Upon learning of Armstrong’s claims, Titovets interviewed the following people who knew LHO and confirmed that he spoke Russian:

· Vyacheslav Stelmakh

· Vladimir Zhidovich

· Dr. Alexander Mastykin

To sum up, another Armstrong assertion is completely without merit.

[Jim Hargrove]

Mr. Parnell (as well as the linked article by John Williams) depends almost entirely on Ernst Titovets for the claim that Harvey Oswald spoke Russian while in the USSR.  So, who is Ernst Titovets?

For one thing, Mr. Titovets takes every opportunity to tell his readers that "Lee Harvey Oswald" has NO RELATION TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.  Here are a couple of paragraphs from Millicent Cranor's take-down on him:

It would hardly be surprising that someone like Titovets and his “revelations” of an Oswald who was an innocent naïf, completely unconnected with the US government, are welcomed by the establishment. The New York Times, which for the last half-century has notoriously dismissed or ignored thousands of revelations pointing to Oswald’s involvement in covert operations, has written approvingly of Titovets.

A Closer Look at Titovets Himself

Titovets considers the idea that Oswald was connected to either American or Russian intelligence the “wildest speculation.”  “A James Bond fantasy.”  He ignores the evidence of Oswald’s connections to American intelligence as revealed in many books, and seems to hope his readers will ignore it as well, thereby effectively cutting the marionette’s wires.

Read Ms. Cranor's full article here.

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Jim,

I think it's possible that Oswald did indeed subscribe to a Russian newspaper. But that fact alone tells us little about his reading comprehension.

The deMohrenshild statement you quoted above is far more interesting in my opinion. Do you know if Oswald received any kind of language training while in Russia? Because I don't think it is possibly to reach the level of a native speaker without any instruction.

There is no evidence anywhere that I'm aware of that Oswald EVER took ANY Russian language training!  Other than from Marina and Ernst Titovets (see above) there is no evidence that Oswald even spoke more than a few words of Russian while in the USSR.  So how did he become so amazingly fluent?

Do you really think he would spend so much time in the Marine Corps reading Russian language newspapers and books if he had little understanding of what he was reading?

[Mathias Baumann]

52 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Armstrong has a talent for getting witnesses to say what he wants them to say. But three years before he spoke to Ziger she told an Argentinian publication that “Nobody could say anything [about lies LHO told] because he spoke Russian poorly Dad would translate ...” So, LHO certainly did speak Russian, albeit poorly at the time, and Alexander Ziger translated as a matter of convenience.

There is, of course, a mountain of additional evidence refuting the assertion. The definitive article debunking the claim was written by John Delane Williams.

http://johndelanewilliams.blogspot.com/2013/07/did-oswald-speak-russian-while-living.html

As Williams points out, there were dozens, if not hundreds, of individuals in Russia who could testify to the fact that LHO spoke Russian. Ernst Titovets knew LHO well in Russia and stated that he spoke Russian. Upon learning of Armstrong’s claims, Titovets interviewed the following people who knew LHO and confirmed that he spoke Russian:

· Vyacheslav Stelmakh

· Vladimir Zhidovich

· Dr. Alexander Mastykin

To sum up, another Armstrong assertion is completely without merit.

Hello Tracy,

thank you for linking that interesting article, which answers the question I posed above whether Oswald attended language lessons while in Russia:

Quote

Oswald had indicated he wanted to stay in the Soviet Union, and seek Soviet citizenship. [7] A Russian tutor was found for Oswald, given Oswald’s rudimentary skills in the language. Stanislav Shushkevich, a senior engineer at the radio factory, gave him lessons in Russian. The assignment was made by the Communist Party; thus, the assignment was taken seriously by Shushkevich

But I'm not sure if this statement is correct:

 

Quote

Titovets: Marina did not speak English at all. It would be really surprising if she would have spoken English with Oswald and completely ignored me even when the three of us were together. 

Webster said he talked to her in English. Why should he lie?

[Jim Hargrove]

Ah, I forgot about Shushkevich.  From Harvey and Lee:

A young college graduate, Stanislav Shushkevich, was told by the Communist
Party Secretary at the Horizon plant to teach Oswald the Russian language. Shushkevich
began to spend a lot of time with Oswald, but soon found that he didn't like him and
found him annoying. Oswald did not seem enthusiastic about learning Russian and,
according to Shushkevich, found the language difficult.

NOTE: Shushkevich later became speaker of the Byelorussian parliament. Following the
assassination he questioned Oswald's intelligence and believed that he was "a puppet in
someone's hands."

[H&L p. 288-289]

The Christian Science Monitor interviewed Stanislav Shushkevich (emphasis added):

"He was a simple martinet, and I found nothing in common with him. His Russian at that point was passable. We had about a dozen lessons in all, after that we had no contacts,” Mr. Shushkevich told the Monitor in an interview. 

The complete article is here:

Are we seriously going to ascribe Harvey Oswald's astonishing fluency in Russian to a dozen private tutoring sessions?  How was his Russian already "passable" when he met with Shushkevich?

Edited August 22, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[W. Tracy Parnell]

3 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Webster said he talked to her in English. Why should he lie?

Because he was an old man in a nursing home when Russell talked to him and we don't even know if he was in his right mind and/or misremembering things he may have been coached to say.

[Mathias Baumann]

16 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Because he was an old man in a nursing home when Russell talked to him and we don't even know if he was in his right mind and/or misremembering things he may have been coached to say.

 

Tracy,

two questions:

1) Has Marina ever disputed Webster's claim?

2) Don't you think it's a huge coincidence that Marina would meet TWO American defectors AND be allowed to leave the country with one of them?

I'm pretty sure she was a KGB informer assigned to monitoring American defectors. Speaking English would certainly help with that task.

[Mathias Baumann]

One more thing, Tracy:

You haven't forgotten about the questions I asked concerning Mexico City, have you?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

<blockquote>Despite my many requests for people who think there is actual information at Mr. Parker's site about this subject to post the information here, they ALWAYS refuse to do so. Why is that?</blockquote>

Well, the obvious reason is that you're reading this on a website, and all you have to do is click on the link that has been provided for your convenience, and then you will be able to read the information for yourself.

Here's that link again:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1500-one-more-attempt-at-those-darn-school-records

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim also writes, concerning Oswald's Russian test:

<blockquote>the fact that he [Oswald] got more answers right than wrong is astounding.</blockquote>

No, it isn't. When combined with the knowledge that Oswald's performance in the test was poor ("His rating was poor throughout"), it merely shows that the one and only, real-life Lee Harvey Oswald had a basic knowledge of Russian in February 1959, just as you might expect of a native English speaker who was in the early stages of learning Russian.

Oswald, however, was supposed to have been a native speaker of Russian, according to the holy book of the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' cult. How does Jim reconcile those two contradictory pieces of information?

Let's see if we can encourage Jim to offer an opinion on this. If the Oswald who defected was actually a native speaker of Russian, how does Jim explain the "poor" performance in the test? Here are the three most plausible options:

- (a) Oswald was deliberately pretending to have only a beginner's knowledge of Russian.

- (b) The Colonel Folsom who pointed out to the Warren Commission ( Hearings, vol.8, p.307: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=315 ) that Oswald's performance in the test was "poor throughout" wasn't actually the real Colonel Folsom but a clone, the product of a top-secret CIA 'Folsom project', who deliberately misled the Warren Commission. If you look at photographs of the so-called 'Colonel Folsom' taken several years apart and in different lighting conditions, they look slightly different, which proves that 'he' was actually two people. Needless to say, each 'Colonel Folsom' had a separate mother. Just look at the photographs! The camera doesn't lie!

- (c) Oswald's marine corps record (Hearings, vol.19, p.662: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=680 ) was faked by lizard-like creatures from Atlantis who were part of the CIA's top-secret 'Oswald project' and its top-secret 'Folsom project', and who went on to fake the moon landings and the Boston marathon bombing.

Which of these explanations will Jim choose? Was Oswald pretending? Or was there something more sinister afoot?

The common-sense alternative, of course, is that Oswald was a native speaker of English, not Russian, and the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' theory is moon-landings-level nonsense.

[Michael Walton]

39 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Which of these explanations will Jim choose? Was Oswald pretending? Or was there something more sinister afoot?

Brilliant, Jeremy.

Congratulations. But as is the case, there'll  be more quoted text, pictures and the usual Whack A Mole from Jim.

And neither he nor his converts ever bothered to explain  the school record "what are the odds" comparison  I posted earlier.

That's  par for  the  course here.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

 

Tracy,

two questions:

1) Has Marina ever disputed Webster's claim?

2) Don't you think it's a huge coincidence that Marina would meet TWO American defectors AND be allowed to leave the country with one of them?

I'm pretty sure she was a KGB informer assigned to monitoring American defectors. Speaking English would certainly help with that task.

I have no idea if marina is aware of it or not. If Marina met Webster it could be because she wanted to meet an American and move to the US. None of this proves she was a KGB informer or spoke English. 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

One more thing, Tracy:

You haven't forgotten about the questions I asked concerning Mexico City, have you?

When I mentioned I was on summer vacation, that was a nice way of saying I have no intention of answering your questions on demand.