A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Michael Walton]

Now why is it when I  point stuff out I  get no credit and when others do Chris Newton gives *that* person credit?

Go figure....

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

I wonder if Jim would be kind enough to:
- (a) acknowledge the uncontroversial fact that Oswald's performance in his Russian test was poor, far below that of a native speaker;
- (b) explain how Oswald's poor performance is compatible with the notion, central to the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' theory, that the person who took the test was indistinguishable from a native speaker of Russian.

 

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Once again, Mr. Bojczuk demonstrates that he does not even comprehend the basics of the material he is trying so hard to debunk. Had he bothered to read Harvey and Lee, he would understand that Harvey Oswald did not try to pass for a native-speaking Russian during his so-called defection.  Oswald tried to hide the fact that he understood Russian.  For example….

The private Intourist guide Rima Sherikova Oswald hired in Moscow indicated he did not seem to speak a word of Russian.

A Moscow doctor treating the wrist wound from his so-called suicide attempt also wrote that Oswald indicated he did not speak Russian but seemed to understand some of the things said about him in Russian. The exact words were, "The patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian. Sometimes he answers correctly, but immediately states that he does not understand what he was asked.

 

 

While working at the radio factory in Minsk, Harvey Oswald became friends with the family of Anita (Ana) Ziger.  Ana’s father, Alejandro, spoke English and frequently translated for Oswald at the radio plant.  In 1998, John Armstrong and a friend traveled to Buenos Aires, and did several lengthy interviews with Ana Ziger.  Ana declared that, when she knew him in Minsk, Oswald didn’t speak any Russian and seemed unwilling to learn the language.

Here’s a photo of Ana Ziger and “Oswald” from the Warren volumes:

 

 

 

Of the people who knew him in Russia, only Marina claimed Oswald spoke Russian, (“with a Baltic accent.”)  Recently, a Russian named Ernst Titovets came to the United States claiming Oswald did indeed speak Russian in the Soviet Union.  He brought with him audio tapes—with Oswald speaking only in English!  Millicent Cranor wrote a great take-down on Titovets which can be read here.

Mr. Bojczuk may not understand the basics of Harvey and Lee, but he did get one thing right. Oswald, according to the Warren Commission, was stationed in California for two months, rather than one, before taking the Russian language test.  Mr. Bojczuk can now attempt to make others believe that “Lee Harvey Oswald” learned to speak, read, and write Russian without a teacher or a textbook, in two months!  Thanks for the correction! I sincerely doubt this will help you convince others of your theory Amazing Theory!

One more thing I meant to point out.

When he is not busy misrepresenting the information in Harvey and Lee, why does Mr. Bojczuk refuse to discuss the evidence in it, for example, the evidence that "Lee Harvey Oswald" simultaneously attended school in New York City and New Orleans in the fall semester of 1953?

In 1953, Marguerite and LEE were living in a basement apartment at 1455 Sheridan while LEE was attending PS 44 in New York City. After the assassination SAC John Malone, the FBI agent in charge of the New York Office, inspected Oswald's original court file in the presence of Judge Florence Kelley. Malone took notes and sent a report to FBI Director Hoover the following day. Malone wrote, "Oswald's attendance record at PS #44 from 3/23/53 to 1/12/54 was 171 and 11 half-days present and 18 and 11 half days absent. If LEE Oswald's 182 days of attendance (171 full days, 11 1/2 days) and 18 absences are plotted on 1953 and 1954 calendars it is easy to see that LEE Oswald attended PS 44 full time during the entire 1953 school year. 

 

 

In the fall of 1953 LEE Oswald was attending the eighth grade at PS 44 in New York, while HARVEY Oswald and his caretaker/mother were living at 126 Exchange Place in New Orleans. HARVEY was enrolled in the eighth grade at Beauregard Junior High, and because he attended school part-time he was not assigned a home room. On page 817, of Warren Volume 22, there is a copy of Oswald's cumulative school records at Beauregard.  The first row, highlighted in yellow, is the fall semester of 1953 and shows that Oswald attended a General Science class, a Physical Education class, and attended 89 days of school with only one absence. The second row is for the last half of the eighth grade (spring semester).  The third row shows final grades, absences, and tardies for the entire 53-54 school year (eighth grade).

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Unfortunately for Armstrong, In 1995, three years before she talked to Armstrong, Ziger told an Argentinian publication that “Nobody could say anything [about lies LHO told] because he spoke Russian poorly Dad would translate ...” So according to Ziger, LHO certainly did speak Russian, albeit poorly at the time, and Alexander Ziger translated as a matter of convenience. See my article for a discussion of Armstrong's nonsensical claim that LHO never spoke Russian in Russia.

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/lho-spoke-no-russian-in-russia.html

Unfortunately for Mr. Parnell, he makes our point for us.

The man who had a two hour conversation in Russian with Rosaleen Quinn just a year or so earlier now needs a translator to say "Hello Russkies!"  

By the way, the article linked above by Mr. Parnell ultimately relies mostly on Ernst Titovets.  See HERE for Millicent Cranor's scoop on him.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Unfortunately for Mr. Parnell, he makes our point for us.

The man who had a two hour conversation in Russian with Rosaleen Quinn just a year or so earlier now needs a translator to say "Hello Russkies!"  

By the way, the article linked above by Mr. Parnell ultimately relies mostly on Ernst Titovets.  See HERE for Millicent Cranor's scoop on him.

The point is that Jim Hargrove tries to sneak these "facts" into the discussion that are not facts at all. Jim and others here praise Armstrong's research. But they fail to inform readers that many of the discoveries made by Armstrong and archived at Baylor do not support his theory but rather contradict it. The Argentinian article I mentioned is but one example. LHO didn't "need" a translator, it was a matter of convenience as I explained. BTW, I don't intend to spend too much time in the future on Armstrong's theory. I have a good sized archive of articles and that, along with the work of Greg Parker and Jeremy B. and others is enough to persuade those who are willing to be persuaded. But I may pop in from time to time when Jim tries to slip one of his "facts" into the discussion.

[Michael Walton]

I dare anyone to say that the photo Hargrove  posted is not the one and only Lee Oswald.

If Hargrove  is trying to claim that the person in the photo is a clone then he truly is demented.

[Michael Clark]

29 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

The point is that Jim Hargrove tries to sneak these "facts" into the discussion that are not facts at all. Jim and others here praise Armstrong's research. But they fail to inform readers that many of the discoveries made by Armstrong and archived at Baylor do not support his theory but rather contradict it. The Argentinian article I mentioned is but one example. LHO didn't "need" a translator, it was a matter of convenience as I explained. BTW, I don't intend to spend too much time in the future on Armstrong's theory. I have a good sized archive of articles and that, along with the work of Greg Parker and Jeremy B. and others is enough to persuade those who are willing to be persuaded. But I may pop in from time to time when Jim tries to slip one of his "facts" into the discussion.

Tracy, I more or less don't involve myself with the subject. I am convinced that there was an operation of some kind to place an imposter here and there to confuse things but I don't have the available RAM in my noggin to seriously study Armstrong.

Yet, Jim Hargrove's mastery of the subject matter is beyond impressive. I think that you agree, no?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

33 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Tracy, I more or less don't involve myself with the subject. I am convinced that there was an operation of some kind to place an imposter here and there to confuse things but I don't have the available RAM in my noggin to seriously study Armstrong.

Yet, Jim Hargrove's mastery of the subject matter is beyond impressive. I think that you agree, no?

Yes, I think Jim's general knowledge of the JFK case is excellent. However, what he and Armstrong have chosen to do with Armstrong's work is where my problem with them lies. As you say, many researchers feel an LHO impostor was involved in some form or another in the JFK case. But as Jeremy B. points out, you don't have to take a leap of faith (which is definitely required) from there to two Oswalds.

[Chris Newton]

3 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Now why is it when I  point stuff out I  get no credit and when others do Chris Newton gives *that* person credit?

I have no idea what you are complaining about. I quoted a writer and replied to him directly. If, somehow, I missed your original thought on the same subject, I apologize.

[Sandy Larsen]

Michael, Chris, Mathias,

I will try to make it a simple task for you and others to clearly see that Oswald attended two different schools simultaneously during the Fall semester of his 8th grade school year, 1953/54.

Following are what the two school records indicate:

Public School #44, New York City
8th Grade, Fall Semester

Days Present:  62 + 5 half days
Days Absent:  3 + 8 half days
Times Late (Tardy):  1

Total Days of School = 62 + 5 + 3 +8 = 78 days

This information is highlighted in yellow in the upper school record, below.

 

Beauregard Junior High School, New Orleans
8th Grade, Fall Semester

Days Present:  89 days
Days Absent:  1 day
Tardy:  0

Total Days of School = 89 + 1 = 90 days

This information is highlighted in yellow in the lower school record, below.

 

Comments

The information above is all you need to see that Oswald attended both schools simultaneously... for 78 days. (There are 78 days that overlap.)

I encourage each of you to confirm that what I have written above accurately portrays what is indicated in the two school records. Having done that, there should be no question in your minds that the records do indeed show Oswald attending two schools, located in two different states, at the same time for a period of one semester.

To zoom in on a document, right-click the image and select View Image. Then hold the CTRL keyboard button down while pressing the + key several times.

The Oswald in New York City had a full class schedule, whereas the one in New Orleans took only two classes (General Science and Physical Education). I would guess that either this Oswald had a part time job, or was supervised by a mother who couldn't persuade or force him to take more classesl.

 

School Record:  Public School #44, New York City
The yellow highlighted row indicates Oswald's attendance during his 8th grade Fall semester (fall 1953).
His classes and scores for that semester are given in the right-most column in the middle third of the page.
 

 

 

School Record:  Beauregard Junior High School, New Orleans
The yellow highlighted row indicates Oswald's classes, scores, and attendance during his 8th grade Fall semester (fall 1953).
(The second row shows the same for the Winter semester. The third row shows the totals for the full 8th grade school year.)
 

•  

Edited August 20, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim writes:

<blockquote>Mr. Bojczuk can now attempt to make others believe that "Lee Harvey Oswald" learned to speak, read, and write Russian without a teacher or a textbook, in two months!</blockquote>

Here we go again. Jim is claiming that the person known as Oswald who took the Russian test was able to "speak, read and write Russian" by late February 1959.

To what level could this person "speak, read and write Russian"? Jim doesn't tell us. It certainly wasn't to the level of a native speaker, as Jim might like us to believe, because this person's test results were poor. According to the source I quoted earlier, his score was "poor" in reading Russian, and "poor" in writing Russian, and "poor" in understanding (not speaking) Russian. "His rating was poor throughout."

I wonder why Jim failed to qualify his statement. To give us an accurate description of Oswald's ability, he could have written that the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald was able to "speak, read and write Russian" poorly.

Or he could have written that the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald was able to "speak, read and write Russian" to a level consistent with the theory that Oswald had only begun to learn the language two months earlier.

Or he could have written that the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald was able to "speak, read and write Russian" in a way that was entirely inconsistent with the theory that Oswald was a native speaker of the language.

I asked Jim if he would be kind enough to acknowledge the uncontroversial fact that Oswald's performance in his Russian test was poor, far below that of a native speaker. It doesn't seem much to ask.

The real-life, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald had a poor ability to read, write and understand Russian at the time he took the test. Either that, or Oswald was pretending to have only a beginner's command of Russian. What's your opinion, Jim? Did Oswald really have only a rudimentary knowledge of Russian in February 1959, or was Oswald pretending to have only a rudimentary knowledge of Russian in February 1959? Which is it?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Mathias Baumann writes:

I don't think Oswald could have reached level L2/R2 in just two months without any instruction. He would have needed at least 4 - 5 lessons per day to get there.

I agree, Mathias, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Oswald received instruction of some kind before he left the marines. But I doubt that Oswald was at the L2/R2 level at the time he took the test. Perhaps someone who achieved a high grade in the test would have been at that level. Oswald, however, did poorly in the test, which doesn't seem to have been a pass-or-fail type of test, but only an assessment of ability.

All we can really conclude from Oswald's performance in the test is that he had only just begun to learn Russian, and that he was certainly not a native speaker of Russian.

[Sandy Larsen]

17 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Mathias Baumann writes:

I don't think Oswald could have reached level L2/R2 in just two months without any instruction. He would have needed at least 4 - 5 lessons per day to get there.

I agree, Mathias, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Oswald received instruction of some kind before he left the marines. But I doubt that Oswald was at the L2/R2 level at the time he took the test. Perhaps someone who achieved a high grade in the test would have been at that level. Oswald, however, did poorly in the test, which doesn't seem to have been a pass-or-fail type of test, but only an assessment of ability.

All we can really conclude from Oswald's performance in the test is that he had only just begun to learn Russian, and that he was certainly not a native speaker of Russian.

I thought that Mathias showed earlier that, for Oswald to have passed the language test at the level he did, he had to have reached the L2/R2 level by that time. Am I wrong?

 

[Mathias Baumann]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I thought that Mathias showed earlier that, for Oswald to have passed the language test at the level he did, he had to have reached the L2/R2 level by that time. Am I wrong?

 

Sandy,

if Jim is right and Oswald really got a passing grade he would have had to be at least on level L2/R2, because that appears to be the bar the military sets for that kind of exams:

https://www.german-way.com/levels-of-language-proficiency-my-life-in-germany/

http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam-Guide-MC-CBu-updated.pdf

The latter link I found especially interesting because it explains this type of test in great detail.

However, as Jeremy has pointed out, Oswald was rated "poor" in several areas, so I wonder if Oswald really did get a passing grade.

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

<blockquote>I thought that Mathias showed earlier that, for Oswald to have passed the language test at the level he did, he had to have reached the L2/R2 level by that time. Am I wrong?</blockquote>

The test that Oswald took does not seem to have been a pass-or-fail test, but only an assessment of ability.

Mathias's source stated that the L2/R2 level was the minimum requirement for military language analysts. Oswald's performance ("His rating was poor throughout") does not suggest that he would have made a competent military language analyst. Nor does a "poor" performance seem to be consistent with the L2/R2 standard, which requires a "limited working proficiency." Here is part of the definition of the L2 standard:

<blockquote>Sufficient comprehension to understand conversations on routine social demands and limited job requirements. Able to understand face-to-face speech in a standard dialect, delivered at a normal rate with some repetition and rewording, by a native speaker not used to dealing with foreigners, about everyday topics, common personal and family news, well-known current events and routine office matters.</blockquote>

If you have a look at the document Mathias found ( http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam-Guide-MC-CBu-updated.pdf ), you'll see descriptions of various levels of language competence. Here is part of the definition of the L0+ standard:

<blockquote>Sufficient comprehension to understand a number of memorized utterances in areas of immediate needs. Slight increase in utterance length understood but requires frequent long pauses between understood phrases and repeated requests on the listener's part for repetition. Understands with reasonable accuracy only when this involves short memorized utterances or formulae. Utterances understood are relatively short in length.</blockquote>

And here is the L1 standard ("elementary proficiency"):

<blockquote>Sufficient comprehension to understand utterances about basic survival needs and minimum courtesy and travel requirements in areas of immediate need or on very familiar topics, can understand simple questions and answers, simple statements and very simple face-to-face conversations in a standard dialect.</blockquote>

My guess is that someone who could only manage a "poor" performance in the marines test would be somewhere around the L0+ to L1 level.

Either way, the point is that Oswald's "poor" performance was clearly not that of a native speaker of Russian.

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Sandy,

if Jim is right and Oswald really got a passing grade he would have had to be at least on level L2/R2, because that appears to be the bar the military sets for that kind of exams....

Mathias,

I've read (but I don't recall where) that Oswald passed the test but with low scores. John Armstrong wrote in Harvey & Lee that Oswald passed the test. Jim Hargrove gives actual scores, as does Bugliosi. They are all roughly 50%. For typical classes in public schools, that would be an F grade. But I've taken tough college classes where a test score in the high 70s was considered an A... due to bell curve grading. (I recall a 600-level college statistics course that was just brutal... it had test scores like that.)

Bugliosi wrote:  "His marks were rated 'poor' in all categories. However, since the test was designed to assess the proficiency of native speakers and students at the military's rigorous language schools, .... his grades were not that bad."

Given that the test was designed for native speakers, it sounds to me like Oswald understood and spoke Russian like, perhaps, a high school dropout. Or maybe a "hick." Or maybe a 6th grade kid. Which is not bad, really. It could explain how Oswald was reading the masters only 3 1/2 years later.

EDIT: Changed miscalculated 2 1/2 year to 3 1/2 years.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Sandy Larsen