A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Parker boiled the numbers down on the school records and they match up perfectly.

Parker's analysis is nonsense. I invite everybody to read it for themselves. If they see anything that actually shows that Jim's interpretation of the school records is wrong, post it here.

I know that nobody will do so because I have read Parker's analysis and I see that it is nonsense. It is wishful thinking on Parker's part.

If I am wrong about this, then why is it nobody has posted on this thread anything Parker has written? Why has Micheal not done so??

 

15 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

I showed that the NO and NYC records reconcile when they say previous schools were one or the other.

No you haven't. Quit making stuff up.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

13 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

22 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Why do you suppose Oswald quit speaking Russian once  he arrived in the Soviet Union?

He didn't Sandy, and I wouldn't put too much faith in alleged statements John Armstrong provides. He has been caught manipulating evidence many times. Also, as David Lifton points out, Armstrong went on a "witness recruitment program." That is, he gets in a conversation with people and manipulates then to say what he wants rather than asking objective questions as a journalist or true fact finder would do.

I find Armstrong to be credible and Lifton to be a poor judge of who to trust. (He trusts Marina, I believe. He trusts a former KGB author of a book regarding Mexico. He might even trust Ruth Paine.  I don't trust any of these.)

 

[Sandy Larsen]

13 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

On 8/24/2017 at 0:16 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

It proves nothing because it makes false assumptions, leads to false answers, and is generally incoherent.

Greg Parker has responded:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1500-one-more-attempt-at-those-darn-school-records

I've looked at Greg's threads responding to HARVEY & LEE threads here numerous times. And have found nothing about the school records that is credible. I am no longer going to do that... at least not regarding the school records. If any Armstrong critic sees something of Greg's worthy of being posted here, they will have to do it. I'm done.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

- Jim has shown that in some of Oswald's Marine Corps records Oswald's height is incorrectly stated as 5' 9''. Curiously that is the same wrong height Oswald used in the applications he sent out when looking for a job in New Orleans. And coincidentally that's also Kerry Thornley's height... and Thornley is certainly a very curious and suspicious fellow...

Mathias,

Fascinating post, as always, but I do want to make one correction.

Documents at the National Archives are almost evenly divided between a 5' 8" Oswald and a 5'10" Oswald.  USMC medical records shortly before his discharge list Oswald's height at 5'10".  The only reference to a 5'9" Oswald I'm aware of came from the Dallas Police, not the USMC.  If you have other information, I'l love to hear about it.

[Jim Hargrove]

Last Thursday, Sandy Larsen wrote, “It's occurred to me that, if Oswald hid his Russian speaking skills, that would be pretty good evidence in itself that his defection was an intel operation.”  Sounds true to me.

A doctor at Botkinskay Hospital in Moscow certainly noticed that deception when, just a couple of days after “Lee Harvey Oswald” arrived in Moscow, he wrote: "The patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian. Sometimes he answers correctly, but immediately states that he does not understand what he was asked."

The late author Norman Mailer, who gained access to Russian government material on Oswald available to no other researchers, made two interesting points in the opening pages of his book, Oswald’s Tale.  First, that Oswald spent a lot of money on a Deluxe tourist package (just as he had spent a lot of money on first class hotels on his way to Moscow, which is strange for a fellow who always seemed poor as a church mouse.)  Second, Rimma Shirakova, his young English-speaking guide, believed he didn’t speak a word of Russian.

Here are three early pages from Oswald’s Tale that I captured from Google Books.  (I added the yellow highlighting.)

[Jim Hargrove]

I occasionally hear from other JFK researchers who from time to time read these posts.  One of the more active researchers yesterday sent me the following email, which pretty much speaks for itself.

 

Jim,

Norman Mailer's Oswald's Tale is an exasperating book in part because there is no index.  But here is some quoted material that is germane to understanding the facade that  Oswald was presenting to the locals in Minsk: 

"People laughed at him when he talked.  His Russian was so bad people laughed, not mocking, but friendly.  He would try to pronounce words, get them wrong.  They would laugh....He couldn't understand their words, so they showed him with sign language, made animal sounds, and he laughed. " (p. 80)

Shortly after Oswald began work in the Minsk factory, Comrade Libezin, the local Communist Party Secretary, gave the assignment to a university-educated engineer named Stanislav Shuskevich of tutoring Oswald in Russian.   Here is Mailer's summary of the tutorials:

"Lessons took place in a second-floor room after work, and Oswald would come to visit him [Shushkevich] from another building in their factory compound....Shushkevich just worked on verbs, and occasionally tried to teach this American colloquial Russian....Their lessons proceeded without great enthusiasm, and Oswald found Russian difficult.  He did get to a point where he could achieve understanding if Shushkevich spoke slowly, used gestures, wrote words on pieces of paper, and sometimes brought out a dictionary."  (pp. 81-82)

Another Russian named Stellina (named after Stalin) was the manager of Intourisht's Service Bureau at Hotel Minsk.  She was a great linguist, fluent in English, German, Byelorussian, Chech, Polish, and Yiddish. (p. 73)  Oswald referred to her affectionately as "Ma."  Stellina also attempted to teach Oswald Russian during his stay in Minsk.  He he often complained [in English] that when he returned from work, he was too tired, telling her, "Ma, I've gotten so tired I don't even have the strength to go and take my key and open my door." (p. 82)

The scenario above fits perfectly with a trained American operative who knows the Russian language well, yet is keeping up the appearance of a rube.  

In life, Harvey Oswald fooled his hosts in the USSR, including the unreliable Ernst Titovets.  And posthumously, he has fooled the dim-witted and lazy members of the Education Forum.
 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Michael Walton writes (on p.52 above):

<blockquote>there'll be more quoted text, pictures and the usual Whack A Mole from Jim.</blockquote>

Surely not, Michael! Are you seriously suggesting that Jim is in the habit of changing the subject to deflect attention every time one of his claims has been debunked? Oh, wait. Jim writes (on p.54):

<blockquote>So, let's change the subject. Maybe Mr. Walton would like to explain why, when Lee Harvey Oswald was clearly living in Minsk in the USSR, he was also at the Bolton Ford Dealership in New Orleans.</blockquote>

Jim then goes on to reproduce the account in 'Harvey and Lee' of the Bolton Ford incident that was debunked some time ago. I know how much Jim appreciates Greg Parker's research, so here's a link to Greg's debunking of Armstrong's interpretation of the Bolton Ford incident:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1408-the-bolton-ford-incident

To summarise, in my own words:

- The earliest account of the incident, the FBI's report of an interview with Oscar Deslatte on 25 November 1963, refers only to someone named 'Oswald', not 'Lee Oswald'. The account states specifically: "OSWALD, no first name given". Jim even reproduces the relevant document (WCD 75, p.677: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477#relPageId=681 ) at the end of his post on page 54 above.

- An interview with Deslatte's boss, Fred Sewell, several years later during the Garrison investigation, mentions that the name 'Lee Oswald' was given to Deslatte, and that 'Lee Oswald' was written on the paperwork. But (according to Greg; I haven't checked this myself) the paperwork mentions only 'Oswald', not 'Lee Oswald'. Sewell appears to have been mistaken.

- Messrs Armstrong and Hargrove attempt to tie Lee Harvey Oswald to the incident by emphasising the account of Sewell, who admitted that "I wasn't at my desk all the time, I was in and out working because I had customers", and ignoring the more reliable source, the early FBI interview with Deslatte, the salesman who actually dealt with the man he named only as 'Oswald'.

- Deslatte was unable to describe the man named 'Oswald'. Sewell gave a description, but one that does not match the hypothetical version of Lee Harvey Oswald which, according to the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' theory, was in the US at the time of the incident. Messrs Armstrong and Hargrove do not attempt to reconcile the contradiction.

- All we have is a mention of a man named 'Oswald', of whom there were many in Louisiana. Even if this was an instance of impersonation, which is far from certain, the incident provides no support at all for the existence of a top-secret, and entirely hypothetical, CIA 'Oswald project' involving long-term doppelgänger.

Because one more 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' claim has just bitten the dust, we need to change the subject again, urgently. Everyone, please forget that the Bolton Ford dealership story has been debunked, and consider this: Oswald's school records show that he was in two different schools at the same time! It's true - it says so in the holy book!

What do you mean, that one's been debunked? OK, forget about the school records story, and consider this: Oswald was a Hungarian refugee who spoke Russian like a native! It's true - it says so in the holy book!

What do you mean, that one's been debunked? OK, forget about the Hungarian refugee story, and consider this: Oswald was impersonated at the Bolton Ford dealership! It's true - it says so in the holy book!

Round and round we go ...

[Sandy Larsen]

Jeremy,

Thank you for posting your rebuttal here regarding the Bolton Ford incident. (Even though, apparently, it is Greg Parker's rebuttal. But that's okay.) Let's see if Jim can rebut Greg's rebuttal.

If the name Lee Oswald wasn't written on a Bolton Ford document when this incident occurred, then the incident should be thrown out in my opinion.

I Have some comments on what you wrote:

 

41 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Michael Walton writes (on p.52 above):

<blockquote>there'll be more quoted text, pictures and the usual Whack A Mole from Jim.</blockquote>

Surely not, Michael! Are you seriously suggesting that Jim is in the habit of changing the subject to deflect attention every time one of his claims has been debunked? Oh, wait. Jim writes (on p.54):

 

That is an incorrect and unfair characterization of Jim Hargrove. I've never seen him do what you're suggesting he does. I'm certain he would stay on any particular subject as long as any of his readers here want to discuss the subject.

And besides, I've been reading what Jim posts about Harvey & Lee for almost two years and I don't recall a single instance of his statements being debunked. The worst I've seen (from his perspective) is the two side disagreeing on something. You make it sound as though he is regularly debunked, and that simply is not the case.

 

41 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

 

Because one more 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' claim has just bitten the dust, we need to change the subject again, urgently. Everyone, please forget that the Bolton Ford dealership story has been debunked, and consider this: [A] Oswald's school records show that he was in two different schools at the same time! It's true - it says so in the holy book!

What do you mean, that one's been debunked? OK, forget about the school records story, and consider this: Oswald was a Hungarian refugee who spoke Russian like a native! It's true - it says so in the holy book!

What do you mean, that one's been debunked? OK, forget about the Hungarian refugee story, and consider this: [C] Oswald was impersonated at the Bolton Ford dealership! It's true - it says so in the holy book!

Round and round we go ...

You are suggesting that these three things (A, B, and C) have been debunked.

A. The school records thing most certainly has not been debunked. If you think it has, then prove it! Present the debunking HERE for all to see and debate.

B. The Hungarian Oswald thing is just a theory. Jim doesn't say it's a fact. John doesn't say it's a fact. But regardless of that, it also has not been debunked. Multiple possible scenarios have been presented which have not been proven to be impossible. So it hasn't been debunked.

C. I haven't seen the Bolton Ford thing debated, so I don't know if it's been debunked or not. I hope Jim will respond to Greg's arguments.

 

[Michael Walton]

13 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

I do not. I certainly do not believe

Mathis, fair enough that you're trying to learn more about the case but don't subscribe to the the clone fairy tale.  Some things to keep in mind.

Read Bill Simpich's State Secret.  There, you will learn how the 5-9 height thing came about. It goes into great detail but keep in mind this was happening BEFORE Kennedy was even elected.  What does that mean? It means that, yes, Oswald worked for the government, especially during his "defection," which was not a defection. Personally, I think it was some kind of mole hunt but the bottom line is Bill's story will explain it in detail.  You will NOT get your answers about the 5-9 height with the Harvey and Lee nonsense.  This is why it's terribly aggravating to me because it does nothing but muddle the real record of what happened on 11/22.

Phillips was an ex-CIA agent.  So was Howard Hunt.  Both wrote novels.  You are aware that novels are fiction? Yes, some actual events can be incorporated but it's not a straight-up factual book.

Hunt said on his deathbed that Kennedy was going to reveal the alien presence.  Phillips said what he did about Oswald in his NOVEL. Being ex-CIA, and with that agency's record for over 50 years regarding this case, do you really think they're going to reveal the truth on their deathbed and in a novel? You have to ask yourself that with a large heaping dose of skepticism. Of course many people don't, especially a certain member of this forum who brags he's a cold and calculating by-the-book only-the-facts-please evidence man.

Yes, it is remarkable if Phillips said that in the newspaper.  If he did actually say that, those few words he said reveals a lot, just like Oswald, while being whisked away, revealed a lot when he said, "I'm nothing but a patsy."

If you believe there was only one Oswald, the one that grew up poor in TX, bounced around with his Mom, went into the Marines, left and "defected" to Russia, came back with Marina landing in TX, went to NO and back, and was arrested and murdered by Ruby, then does it really matter how well he spoke Russian?  He had to have spoken the language when he "defected." How well is anyone's guess but he did know the language.  From what I read, that language is hard to learn. Maybe he learned it enough to do what was expected of him when he went to Russia.  That's fine.

But to get into the nitty-gritty of how well or not he spoke the language, and then project it onto this outlandish and crazy story that Jim(John?) is subscribing to here - along with all of the other nonsense - and have someone who brags about being a cold and calculating evidence man continue to support it, is ridiculous.

[Jim Hargrove]

I’m going to spend most of the day out with my kids, so this post will have to be very rushed.  I’d like to thank Mr. Bojczuk for FINALLY going on the record about Greg Parker’s so-called debunking of SOMETHING.  Why don’t you do the same for the school records?

So let’s see about Bolton Ford that you claim Mr. Parker has “debunked.”

On January 20th, 1961, while Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was in Minsk, a man calling himself “Lee Oswald” and another man visited the Bolton Ford Truck center in New Orleans.  Jim Garrison’s staff interviewed Fred Sewell, who in 1961 managed truck sales at Bolton.  Sewell said, “He represented himself as LEE OSWALD.  He’s the man that spoke up and said, “I’m the man handling the money.  You ought to have my name too.”

But the evidence that this was one of our Oswalds goes far deeper than Sewell’s recollection.  Sewell provided Oswald with a written proposal and the purchaser was listed as "Friends of Democratic Cuba." The Bolton sales order form listed FDC and the name "Oswald."

 

 

And who were among the officers of the “Friends of Democratic Cuba” listed on the Bolton Ford sales order?  None other than W. Guy Banister, who famously interacted with Oswald in New Orleans in 1963, and Gerard Tugague, Oswald’s EMPLOYER in 1956.

Below is a composite scan from the beginning and the end of the Louisiana Articles of Incorporation for Friends of Democratic Cuba, Inc.

 

 

This is a VERY rushed presentation because I have to go out.  But please explain, HERE and in detail, how Greg Parker has “debunked” the Bolton Ford incident.  Looking forward to hearing from you. 

[Michael Walton]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I find Armstrong to be credible and Lifton to be a poor judge of who to trust. (He trusts Marina, I believe. He trusts a former KGB author of a book regarding Mexico. He might even trust Ruth Paine.  I don't trust any of these.)

OMG this is so, so funny.  So the cold and calculating evidence man:

Does not believe that Lifton's fairy tale of the body being whisked away from the back of Air Force One and onto a helicopter where mad scientists were at the ready with scalpels charged with cutting and cleaving up the body...that's a fairy tale to the cold and calculating evidence man.

BUT - get this....

He DOES believe that out of millions and millions of people worldwide, and way back in 1953, a Hungarian refugee was found over in Europe and he looked exactly like the US-born Oswald, and the Hungarian's Mom also looked exactly like the US-born Oswald's Mom (except she never, ever smiled!), and they were brought together by the super-secret Bad Guys of the government, where one went to school in NYC and the other went to school in NO, both went into the Marine Corps and as if on cue, were brought together on 11/22/63 for the murder of Kennedy. He DOES believe that?!

HAHAHAHA - what a xxxxing joke!

Hey, Sandy - you were right all along.  Remember your claim about that pistol that the old guy had on the knoll?  By golly you were right!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Hr9Lrku-CxRWNreVZQTUxRaGM/view

[Michael Walton]

I do not. I certainly do not believe

BUMPED -

Mathis, fair enough that you're trying to learn more about the case but don't subscribe to the the clone fairy tale.  Some things to keep in mind.

Read Bill Simpich's State Secret.  There, you will learn how the 5-9 height thing came about. It goes into great detail but keep in mind this was happening BEFORE Kennedy was even elected.  What does that mean? It means that, yes, Oswald worked for the government, especially during his "defection," which was not a defection. Personally, I think it was some kind of mole hunt but the bottom line is Bill's story will explain it in detail.  You will NOT get your answers about the 5-9 height with the Harvey and Lee nonsense.  This is why it's terribly aggravating to me because it does nothing but muddle the real record of what happened on 11/22.

Phillips was an ex-CIA agent.  So was Howard Hunt.  Both wrote novels.  You are aware that novels are fiction? Yes, some actual events can be incorporated but it's not a straight-up factual book.

Hunt said on his deathbed that Kennedy was going to reveal the alien presence.  Phillips said what he did about Oswald in his NOVEL. Being ex-CIA, and with that agency's record for over 50 years regarding this case, do you really think they're going to reveal the truth on their deathbed and in a novel? You have to ask yourself that with a large heaping dose of skepticism. Of course many people don't, especially a certain member of this forum who brags he's a cold and calculating by-the-book only-the-facts-please evidence man.

Yes, it is remarkable if Phillips said that in the newspaper.  If he did actually say that, those few words he said reveals a lot, just like Oswald, while being whisked away, revealed a lot when he said, "I'm nothing but a patsy."

If you believe there was only one Oswald, the one that grew up poor in TX, bounced around with his Mom, went into the Marines, left and "defected" to Russia, came back with Marina landing in TX, went to NO and back, and was arrested and murdered by Ruby, then does it really matter how well he spoke Russian?  He had to have spoken the language when he "defected." How well is anyone's guess but he did know the language.  From what I read, that language is hard to learn. Maybe he learned it enough to do what was expected of him when he went to Russia.  That's fine.

But to get into the nitty-gritty of how well or not he spoke the language, and then project it onto this outlandish and crazy story that Jim(John?) is subscribing to here - along with all of the other nonsense - and have someone who brags about being a cold and calculating evidence man continue to support it, is ridiculous.

[Mathias Baumann]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Mathias,

Fascinating post, as always, but I do want to make one correction.

Documents at the National Archives are almost evenly divided between a 5' 8" Oswald and a 5'10" Oswald.  USMC medical records shortly before his discharge list Oswald's height at 5'10".  The only reference to a 5'9" Oswald I'm aware of came from the Dallas Police, not the USMC.  If you have other information, I'l love to hear about it.

Jim,

thanks for pointing that out, it seems I got confused. Now I know where I had read about that 5'9'' Oswald:

44 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

 

Read Bill Simpich's State Secret.  There, you will learn how the 5-9 height thing came about. It goes into great detail but keep in mind this was happening BEFORE Kennedy was even elected.  What does that mean? It means that, yes, Oswald worked for the government, especially during his "defection," which was not a defection. Personally, I think it was some kind of mole hunt but the bottom line is Bill's story will explain it in detail. 

I think I'll read that book again. As I remember it also had a lot of startling information about David Morales.

In my personal opinion it is futile to try to find out who the puppet masters were. I'm sure they made certain to leave no traces. But I think some of the people who were directly involved can be identified and it's them we should concentrate on, in my opinion.

My prime suspects are John Roselli, David Morales and Bill Harvey. They had the means and the motives to kill Kennedy and we know they were involved in "wet affairs"...

 

Michael,

about Phillips' novel: of course it's fiction, but it's precisely for that reason that I think it would have been a great means for Phillips to tell the truth and ease his conscience without taking too much risk. I think George de Mohrenschild did the same thing when he wrote his book about Oswald. I guess he was also an unwitting party to the framing of Oswald.

 

57 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

 

Yes, it is remarkable if Phillips said that in the newspaper.  If he did actually say that, those few words he said reveals a lot, just like Oswald, while being whisked away, revealed a lot when he said, "I'm nothing but a patsy.".

Here's the source by the way:

Quote

Phillips consistently denied that he was involved in Kennedy’s assassination and sued JFK authors who suggested he did. Late in life, Phillips told former HSCA investigator Kevin Walsh that he thought JFK was killed by unnamed “rogue” CIA officers.

--> http://jfkfacts.org/jfk-most-wanted-dave-phillips-cia-files/

[W. Tracy Parnell]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I find Armstrong to be credible

That explains everything.

[Michael Walton]

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

That explains everything.

LOL - Likewise.  Unbelievable how he'd dismiss the thrumming helicopter behind  AF-1 theory and fall full face forward for this this one.