For Chris Newton, Larry Hancock, Tracy Parnell, and other Critically-Minded Members

[David Josephs]

or that's just a story worked up with the CIA to make sure none of that info gets out...

The DFS may have even used the info as leverage to expand their drug involvement... 

"Leave us alone or we drop a dime about Oswald"....  just a thought since you'd think if there was info that would hurt the US, now would be the time for them to cart it out...

If we are to believe LITAMIL-9.... in addition to the other mountain of supporting data...

Oswald was not there during that time period.

When someone can explain why we should not believe Odio and her sister.... we can remove DALLAS from the list of places he was, instead of Mexico...
but since we cannot dismiss the Odio's without serious contortion...

AMBANG-1 and Manuel Ray relate to JURE....  Since she was having CUBANS to her house already, the opportunity was perfect for him to see what info he could pick up traveling with CUBANS.... when instead, the plan was worked on him.

Mr. LIEBELER. My record indicates that on December 18, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. James P. Hoary and Bardwell D. Odum. Do you remember that?
Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER It is my understanding that they interviewed you at your place of work, is that correct? 
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER Do you remember approximately what they asked you and what you told them?
Mrs. ODIO. I think I remember. Not exactly, but I think I can recall the conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the content of that conversation, as best you can recall
Mrs. ODIO. They told me they were coming because of the assassination of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father and mother had belonged in Cuba, and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas, and I told him a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about what happened in my house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was it that you had seen in Puerto Rico?
Mrs. ODIO. Mr. Ray, I had seen. He was a very close friend of my father and mother. He hid in my house several times in Cuba.
So they asked me to tell him how I came to know Oswald, and I told them that it was something very brief and I could not recall the time, exact date. I still can't. We more or less have established that it was the end of September. And, of course, my sister had recognized him at the same time I did, but I did not say anything to her. She came very excited one day and said, "That is the man that was in my house." And I said, "Yes; I remember."
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when Oswald came to your house.
Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would help as much as I could.
Those are my activities before Oswald came.

Edited March 22, 2018 by David Josephs

[B. A. Copeland]

6 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

The Mexican DFS had copies of all the tapes and some amount of transcripts made from the phone office tap on the embassies but I don't know that would have told them all that much even after the fact. Generally the CIA shared what they felt the Mexican president would find valuable so that likely did not apply as to Osald's visit.  I don't know that the DFS itself did much investigation of the visit, certainly they did cooperate in picking up Duran and doing her interrogation but we know what that produced. If the DFS or Mexican president's office did any investigating on their own it was probably very specific, at CIA request.  All in all I'm inclined to think that if anyone had important information that we have not seen that it was the FBI legate in MC and we know virtually nothing about what the FBI did in regard to the trip - other than Hosty's remarks about talking to his bureau friends in Mexico. 

Ahhh I see. Thanks a ton!

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/22/2018 at 3:24 PM, David Josephs said:

 

The information about a car comes from a very specific source...  the FM-11 which was used as the basis for 2 cards typed up by TIJERINA.

CASH lies to his superiors in this Jan 13 1964 memo...   the note should say "CHAPMAN"  not  "CASHMAN"  has the 11/24 info from what was on those cards....  below that is one piece of the FM-11 showing "AUTO" - but we must remember something about that form and where all the evidence comes from:

 

  

Our GOBERNACION FBI asset "makes material changes" to the FM-11 for clarity.... 

so what starts to happen on 11/23 is the gathering of all bus line data from those dates, the creation of bus line evidence which includes Oswald,
and the addition of a few choice words on the FM-11.... (the man who did this also had the Tourists visas, applications and the hotel registry book)

Also notice the different names on the two cards...  one, LEE, Harvey Oswald or HARVEY OSWALD LEE is the man leaving the 3rd (due to the Greyhound evidence which shows H.O. LEE)
OSWALD, Lee Harvey or LEE HARVEY OSWALD arrived the 26th with literally zero info recorded...   admonishments were given due to the lack of info on these forms - we should see the mode of transport, the date, the destination, etc....   the cards were created after the fact based on info from CASH who we see lies to his bosses at I&NS about the evidence and what it says.

Oswald did not drive.... any accusation that puts him in a car, puts him with co-conspirators....  that was the CIA PHASE 1... Castro conspiracy (just ask Alvarado)

Phase 2 is Lone Nut... so the car ride MUST become a solo bus ride....

What theory are you talking about Sandy?

The "car-trip" was part of the charade....  part of the CIA's charade...

One group of "car" evidence claims he arrived with a woman and a man... Bill and Elaine ALLEN... except their name was BRILL and the investigation proved negative...
(Oswald 201 Vol 3 folder 8 p147)

 

David,

Thanks for the information you have found regarding an alleged CAR trip made by alleged Oswald from Mexico to Texas.

You asked what my theory is. Broadly speaking I am working on a grand MC theory that is similar to others but 1) attempts to explain the Blond Oswald impersonator; and 2) favors the idea that the purpose for MC was to create a pretext for war with Cuba. (Others say it was to prevent WW3.)

More narrowly speaking -- the reason for my asking you questions about the evidence of entry and exit by CAR -- is that I theorize is that the plotters created an evidence trail for a CAR journey to and from Mexico, and the FBI later changed it to a BUS journey in order to support the Lone Nut scenario.

I believe that the likely way the plotters (CIA) would have created evidence for a CAR journey would have been to have a real car journey. A car full of impersonators.

You have said more than once in our exchange that the evidence doesn't bear that out... that the car journey evidence is fake. So far I haven't seen any reason to believe that. I'm not saying you're wrong, only that I don't see evidence to convince me the same way.

BTW, here's an example of your saying that the

Quote

David wrote:

It's not that there is no evidence of the road trip Sandy...  it's that the evidence of the road trip is not authentic... it doesn't work and conflicts itself.

Note that I had to remind you was talking specifically about a CAR trip, not just any road trip (which could have been by bus):
 

Quote

Sandy wrote:

First, when I postulate about a "road trip," I'm talking specifically about a trip by private car
 

And I often wondered if, in our exchange, you were talking about the bus angle...something I already agreed with you on.Yes, the bus trip evidence was faked. But this whole time I've been talking specifically about a CAR trip.

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[David Josephs]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

More narrowly speaking -- the reason for my asking you questions about the evidence of entry and exit by CAR -- is that I theorize is that the plotters created an evidence trail for a CAR journey to and from Mexico, and the FBI later changed it to a BUS journey in order to support the Lone Nut scenario.

uh, that's exactly what I wrote Sandy....  and has been the basis for my work all along...  

The DURAN/AZCUE descriptions are given many years later and after who knows what occurs between the principals....

I simply build upon Peter Dale Scott's Phase 1 - Castro Conspiracy > Phase 2 - Lone Nut.... and use Phillips' asset from Nicaragua, Alvarado, to illustrate the point perfectly...

As I also posted, a CAR trip equates to co-conspirators... a bus trip, Lone Nut.

With the central question unchanged...  why in the world would HOOVER cover for the CIA other than to hide Oswald as his asset?

I'd be interested what you develop regarding the actual person PROENZA/AZCUE/DURAN/LITAMIL-9/LITAMIL-7 and a variety of other assets say was not Oswald.

DJ

[Sandy Larsen]

21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

On 3/23/2018 at 12:23 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

More narrowly speaking -- the reason for my asking you questions about the evidence of entry and exit by CAR -- is that I theorize is that the plotters created an evidence trail for a CAR journey to and from Mexico, and the FBI later changed it to a BUS journey in order to support the Lone Nut scenario.

uh, that's exactly what I wrote Sandy....  and has been the basis for my work all along...  

 

Jeez David. You asked me what my theory was. I answered your question (in red, above). And you respond with:

"uh, that's exactly what I wrote Sandy....  and has been the basis for my work all along...  "

As though I'd said something stupid or something. When in fact all I did was answer your question.

What's that all about?

(And, BTW, your theory is not the same as mine as far I can tell. I believe that an actual car trip took place. A car full of impostors, so to speak.)

 

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

The DURAN/AZCUE descriptions are given many years later and after who knows what occurs between the principals....

 

True. But the CIA had the photo back in 1963. And the WC was aware of it. And both Azcue's and Duran's later descriptions match the photo. Seems to me like something is there.

 

 

[David Josephs]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 5:55 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

True. But the CIA had the photo back in 1963. And the WC was aware of it. And both Azcue's and Duran's later descriptions match the photo. Seems to me like something is there.

 

 

Which photo?  The application I assume.   Azcue said he wore a suit and specifically said it was not a sweater

He also specifically said it was not the man Ruby killed.... So I'm sorry if I don't understand.....

As for the car filled with imposters.... I look forward to your supporting evidence....

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

As though I'd said something stupid or something. When in fact all I did was answer your question.

What's that all about?

Not at all... But it's not something new....   

Phase 1 and 2... Conspiracy to LN was written by Scott years ago to explain what we saw happen.... And applies to the Mexico city charade.

The wholesale change regarding Alvarado makes it quite plain....

.... There are claims the Mex records are crap.. Yet they found virtually every other person who took a bus at that time... And direct evidence they were on buses.... Just not for Ozzie....  They found plane and train records for others...  In fact, the records were so good it is obvious how they were changed....

What supports the car full of imposters?

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/23/2018 at 9:23 AM, David Josephs said:

The DURAN/AZCUE descriptions are given many years later and after who knows what occurs between the principals....

True. But the CIA had a photo back in 1963 of the man later described by Duran/Azcue. (The photo being of either Nikolai Leonov or a lookalike.) And the WC was aware of it. And both Azcue's and Duran's later descriptions matched the photo. Seems to me like something is there.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

What supports the car full of imposters?

 

There was evidence of travel by car and travel by bus. Your work has shown that the evidence for bus travel was fabricated. So that leaves only the evidence of travel by car.

So I accept travel by car being the most likely means of travel.

Oswald couldn't drive. Assuming the plotters knew this, they would probably want his impostor to be a passenger. Which means there was also a driver. So there we have two impostors in the car. Possibly more.

And so we have a "car full of impostors, so to speak." Making an evidence trail for the FBI to find.

 

[Bernie Laverick]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

There was evidence of travel by car and travel by bus. Your work has shown that the evidence for bus travel was fabricated. So that leaves only the evidence of travel by car.

So I accept travel by car being the most likely means of travel.

Oswald couldn't drive. Assuming the plotters knew this, they would probably want his impostor to be a passenger. Which means there was also a driver. So there we have two impostors in the car. Possibly more.

And so we have a "car full of impostors, so to speak." Making an evidence trail for the FBI to find.

 

In response for support for yet another wild off the wall guess by Sandy we are treated to "most likely" "assuming" "probably" "possibly more" and then staggeringly following that with a "which means..." And all this in less than a 100 words!!!

"Oswald couldn't drive. Assuming the plotters knew this, they would probably want his impostor to be a passenger." And yet you have this same imposter buying cars and trucks and applying for jobs while his 'other half' is in Russia!! But for this they hire a "car full of imposters" to keep up the subterfuge. Though you only mentioned two; Oswald and his driver. It must have been a very small car! Maybe they went by bicycle. Realising you could only rustle up two for your "car full" you then add the magic words..."Possibly more".

So, there we have it. There was a car full of imposters because Sandy Larsen says so. He needs no evidence. A few maybes, a sprinkle of assumptions and mix thoroughly and you will most likely get the right answer, just like Sandy has.

Great detective work. Your explanation is flawless.

[Sandy Larsen]

7 minutes ago, Bernie Laverick said:

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

There was evidence of travel by car and travel by bus. Your work has shown that the evidence for bus travel was fabricated. So that leaves only the evidence of travel by car.

So I accept travel by car being the most likely means of travel.

Oswald couldn't drive. Assuming the plotters knew this, they would probably want his impostor to be a passenger. Which means there was also a driver. So there we have two impostors in the car. Possibly more.

And so we have a "car full of impostors, so to speak." Making an evidence trail for the FBI to find.

 

In response for support for yet another wild off the wall guess by Sandy we are treated to "most likely" "assuming" "probably" "possibly more" and then staggeringly following that with a "which means..." And all this in less than a 100 words!!!

 

It's a theory, Bernie. A theory always include conjecture.  If it didn't, it would be a fact and not a theory.

Deal with it.

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It's a theory, Bernie. A theory always include conjecture.  If it didn't, it would be a fact and not a theory.

And, I might add, what I wrote is only a tiny, inconsequential part of my overall theory. I wrote about it only because David Josephs asked.

[Bernie Laverick]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

It's a theory, Bernie. A theory always include conjecture.  If it didn't, it would be a fact and not a theory.

Deal with it.

 

 

 

As in the Theory of evolution? No "maybes" no "possibly"s and no assumptions on that are there? And there was certainly NO conjecture. A theory is a set of propositions yet to be unproved. That's it! Nothing to do with conjecture or wild guesswork masquerading as 'research'. The theory of evolution is a fact until someone disproves it with new evidence. Please look up the meaning of the word "theory". And yet you expect us to take your guesswork seriously?

When you said there were "possibly more" In the car, do you have anything factual to go on? All we have is your guess that his handlers wouldn't have let him drive so they "probably" got another imposter to do it. Was he also an Oswald Look-alikey? Why did they need more imposters in this car? Where's the evidence for it? It sounds like an episode from Peppa Pig!

You are on record as saying that you believe that there were "multiple" doppelgangers in operation around LHO. Did they all decide to go for a car ride together? Good job they didn't crash, can you imagine the first responders' faces on seeing a "car' full" of injured look-alikeys? 

And wouldn't all that have, er... slightly compromised the whole plot?

Back to the drawing board Sandy and see if you can relive the glory days with another "indisputable" find.

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/25/2018 at 3:35 AM, Bernie Laverick said:

On 3/24/2018 at 3:56 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

It's a theory, Bernie. A theory always include conjecture.  If it didn't, it would be a fact and not a theory.

Deal with it.

 

A theory is a set of propositions yet to be unproved. That's it!

 

Okay, here are the propositions made in my theory:  A CIA asset impersonating Oswald went by car to Mexico City. Another CIA asset impersonating someone else drove the car. There may have been more impersonators riding in the car.

As of now that is a theory... a "set of propositions," as you put it. According to you, it will continue to be a theory till disproved. Can you disprove it Bernie?