Challenge for Paul Trejo -- Why would the US Government cover up a Gen. Walker conspiracy?

[Paul Trejo]

7 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

...The radical right blamed the radical left because Oswald appeared to be a communist or Marxist.... i.e. a member of the radical left.

And they should know -- they sheep-dipped Oswald real good in New Orleans and Mexico City.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

I have often repeated that everything I write in the Forum -- except for quotes and citations -- consists of my own opinion.

I did not know that. Maybe you should mention that in all your posts... that everything you write consists of your own opinions. (Other than your quotes and citations, that is.) If you did, nobody could reasonably accuse you of making things up.

 

[Jason Ward]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Huh? It proves no such thing. The radical right blamed the radical left because Oswald appeared to be a communist or Marxist.... i.e. a member of the radical left.

 

No, Sandy, you're not putting your Hoover hat on.  Look at it from his point of view.    There's only one conclusion possible for Hoover when he knows it's a conspiracy and that Oswald is no commie. Hoover knows within hours Oswald is the patsy for a conspiracy that DOES NOT involve the radical Left.  If it's not a Lone Nut, and it's not the Radical Left, Hoover concludes it is a conspiracy perpetrated by _______________, which is coincidentally equivalent to the DPD and Dallas DA.

What possible options are there in the fill in the blank above when it's not a lone nut and it's not the radical left; it's not a communist conspiracy?

 

Jason

Edited August 22, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jason Ward said:

No, Sandy, you're not putting your Hoover hat on.  Look at it from his point of view.    There's only one conclusion possible for Hoover when he knows it's a conspiracy and that Oswald is no commie. Hoover knows within hours Oswald is the patsy for a conspiracy that DOES NOT involve the radical Left.  If it's not a Lone Nut, and it's not the Radical Left, Hoover concludes it is a conspiracy perpetrated by _______________, which is coincidentally equivalent to the DPD and Dallas DA.

What possible options are there in the fill in the blank above when it's not a lone nut and it's not the radical left; it's not a communist conspiracy?

Jason,

I just cannot follow your reasoning. Can you give me a list of your understanding of what was going on in Hoover's mind.

I will do the same right now:

• The radical right wants Kennedy tried for treason.
• (Lots of other groups hate Kennedy too.)
• Oswald was captured.
• Hoover learns that Oswald once defected to Russia, spoke Russian, had tried to get visas to Cuba and Russia,
• Hoover learns that Oswald was paid $6500 by someone in the Cuban consulate to kill someone. (Gee, I wonder who.)
• Hoover learns the Oswald had had a meeting with KGB agent Kostikov, who was in charge of assassinations.
• Hoover learns that Oswald handed out pro Castro FPCC leaflets.
• Hoover learns that certain officers in the CIA believed the assassination was a Cuban or Russian plot.
• Hoover sees photos of Oswald holding as rifle and communist literature.
• Hoover thinks, gee it sure looks like Oswald is a communist or Marxist.
• Hoover sees those on the Far Right blaming the  assassination on far-left extremists. He thinks to himself, no duh! (That is to say, he agrees.)

I can't understand how Hoover is supposed to get to believing it's a far right plot, just because the far right was blaming the far left. Lots of people were blaming the far left... because the accused killer appeared very much to be on the far left.

You say that Hoover knew Oswald wasn't a commie. What makes you say that?

Even if Hoover somehow knew that Oswald was a pretend communist, why would that lead him to believe that those who made a patsy out of him must be far right radicals?

 

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Paul Trejo]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jason,

I just cannot follow your reasoning. Can you give me a list of your understanding of what was going on in Hoover's mind.

I will do the same right now:

• The radical right wants Kennedy tried for treason.
• (Lots of other groups hate Kennedy too.)
• Oswald was captured.
• Hoover learns that Oswald once defected to Russia, spoke Russian, had tried to get visas to Cuba and Russia,
• Hoover learns that Oswald was paid $6500 by someone in the Cuban consulate to kill someone. (Gee, I wonder who.)
• Hoover learns the Oswald had had a meeting with KGB agent Kostikov, who was in charge of assassinations.
• Hoover learns that Oswald handed out pro Castro FPCC leaflets.
• Hoover learns that certain officers in the CIA believed the assassination was a Cuban or Russian plot.
• Hoover sees photos of Oswald holding as rifle and communist literature.
• Hoover thinks, gee it sure looks like Oswald is a communist or Marxist.
• Hoover sees those on the Far Right blaming the  assassination on far-left extremists. He thinks to himself, no duh! (That is to say, he agrees.)

I can't understand how Hoover is supposed to get to believing it's a far right plot, just because the far right was blaming the far left. Lots of people were blaming the far left... because the accused killer appeared very much to be on the far left.

You say that Hoover knew Oswald wasn't a commie. What makes you say that?

Even if Hoover somehow knew that Oswald was a pretend communist, why would that lead him to believe that those who made a patsy out of him must be far right radicals?

Sandy,

The following is my opinion.

Your statements above contain factual errors.   Hoover did not learn on 11/22/1963 (or before that) that Oswald had met with Kostikov, and in fact he exclaimed that he could not get a straight story from the CIA at all.

Hoover knew for a fact that the FPCC in New Orleans was a FAKE, so he could never have been fooled in this least by any Leftist pose that Oswald was making.

You say you cannot follow this reasoning -- you can't or you won't?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 22, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jason Ward]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jason,

I just cannot follow your reasoning. Can you give me a list of your understanding of what was going on in Hoover's mind.

I will do the same right now:

• The radical right wants Kennedy tried for treason.
• (Lots of other groups hate Kennedy too.)
• Oswald was captured.
• Hoover learns that Oswald once defected to Russia, spoke Russian, had tried to get visas to Cuba and Russia,
• Hoover learns that Oswald was paid $6500 by someone in the Cuban consulate to kill someone. (Gee, I wonder who.)
• Hoover learns the Oswald had had a meeting with KGB agent Kostikov, who was in charge of assassinations.
• Hoover learns that Oswald handed out pro Castro FPCC leaflets.
• Hoover learns that certain officers in the CIA believed the assassination was a Cuban or Russian plot.
• Hoover sees photos of Oswald holding as rifle and communist literature.
• Hoover thinks, gee it sure looks like Oswald is a communist or Marxist.
• Hoover sees those on the Far Right blaming the  assassination on far-left extremists. He thinks to himself, no duh! (That is to say, he agrees.)

I can't understand how Hoover is supposed to get to believing it's a far right plot, just because the far right was blaming the far left. Lots of people were blaming the far left... because the accused killer appeared very much to be on the far left.

You say that Hoover knew Oswald wasn't a commie. What makes you say that?

Even if Hoover somehow knew that Oswald was a pretend communist, why would that lead him to believe that those who made a patsy out of him must be far right radicals?

 

 

Hi Sandy, 

Hoover knows Oswald is no commie for the same reasons we do.   He has on day one most of what has taken us decades to find + he has what is still hidden and may never be found.   Remember that FBI conference Oswald has after getting arrested in N.O. for the scuffle on Canal St?   The one where records are strangely missing?   Remember that the FPCC in N.O. is nothing but Guy Banister's sham commie mask created only for Oswald?

Hoover knows right away Oswald is no commie.   Hoover knows for the same reasons we know.

As to "why would that lead him to believe that those who made a patsy out of him must be far right radicals?"   ....Because it IS the far right radicals making a patsy out of him.   If this happened in Boston he would see Leftish forces; in Dallas the whole Establishment from mayor to meter reader is the Far Right.   Hoover also knows who was behind Oswald's New Orleans nominal "work for Castro."   If we see it now, Hoover saw it then.   Now, I am not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with whatever else you and Paul are in an argument about at this point; but Hoover MUST know Oswald is no commie for many of the same reasons you know that today.

 

regards

Jason

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Jason Ward

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

Banister did not make a patsy of Oswald.

By creating a communist persona in Oswald Banister hoped to discover communists and their sympathizers and Castro agents in New Orleans.

Oswald was more of a spy than a patsy when working for Banister.

Edited August 22, 2017 by George Sawtelle

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, George Sawtelle said:

Jason

Banister did not make a patsy of Oswald.

By creating a communist persona in Oswald Banister hoped to discover communists and their sympathizers and Castro agents in New Orleans.

Oswald was more of a spy than a patsy when working for Banister.

Agreed.

Banister has Oswald in a general sheep dipping program.   I mean here's this little punk getting TV, radio interviews, etc., obviously through the connections of Banister and/or Clay ShawBertrand.

I say Hoover is aware of this.   Oswald demands a FBI interview when arrested for the FPCC staged fight with Carlos Bringuir - and we don't know what was discussed, but whatever Oswald said it must lead Hoover to see what's going on with LHO and his old pal Banister. Agree or disagree?

Hoover basically has all the info we have now that was hidden for 50 years + whatever is sill unknown.   When LHO pops up in Dallas, the FBI is watching him closely.   When Oswald shows up in the Mexico circus,  Hoover is now certain LHO is some type of false-commie acting under orders.   After all this, surprise!, it's none other than Hoover's by now well known fake commie who is miraculously captured so quickly after the assassination.....AND...painted as a commie which Hoover knows is false because of New Orleans, Banister, Mexico City, Hosty....   In my view.   You?

Harry Dean's explanation of when Oswald is patsified above is persuasive to me.

Regards

Jason

Edited August 22, 2017 by Jason Ward

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

Hoover knew he was a fake commie.

But did he know who was pulling his strings in Dallas? Banister was out of the picture when Oswald wound up in Dallas, expertly lured there by someone who did not have to divulge why he (Oswald) was wanted in Dallas.

[Jason Ward]

3 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Jason

Hoover knew he was a fake commie.

But did he know who was pulling his strings in Dallas? Banister was out of the picture when Oswald wound up in Dallas, expertly lured there by someone who did not have to divulge why he (Oswald) was wanted in Dallas.

That's a very interesting question, George, and is indeed the question of timing that I think essential in the last few months before 22November.  I think studying the timing might reveal more than commonly appreciated.   When he goes to Dallas is going to tell us why he goes to Dallas (in his own mind) and who specifically is giving him orders to go to Dallas.  IMO.

If we read what Harry Dean says as accurate, and I do, then the sheep dipping in New Orleans caught the attention of the Dallas boys who wanted to kill Kennedy.   I was not aware until I read what Dean posted that the WDSU Oswald interview received some distribution beyond New Orleans.   So, I am not anything close to constructing my own CT, but I think i'm comfortable throwing up some bits and pieces.    I'm comfortable right now suggesting:

1. Oswald is in New Orleans working for Banister/ClayShawBertrand along with David Ferrie and a motley cast of characters possibly including Carlos Bringuier and various other Cubans or Cuban-interested-guys.  While Oswald is in New Orleans, my guess is that he is being groomed for some kind of Cuba-specific operation, but in any event his "training" or legend is more or less just an exercise in creating generically useful commie-credentials which may have many uses in the Cold War with or without Cuba.  
2. I don't THINK Oswald is working for the CIA in New Orleans.  I do think that some CIA money may have drifted down to Oswald at this time in the same way it drifted down to Carlos Bringuier and Ferrie.   Basically, these guys are so low, untrained, and rough around the edges that in my view they are in no way CIA agents in the formal sense.  They may have BELIEVED they were on the CIA/James Bond career path, but at best they received some CIA money filtered through a couple levels.  IMO.
3.  Now comes the really INTERESTING part to me - which Harry Dean elucidates.   So, we have Oswald in New Orleans acting the part of the most flamboyant media-savyy American        communist outside of New York and California.   His credentials as a commie are pretty thin and obviously a facade from our perspective, but in his era he is a believable Marxist to most people.  I guess the equivalent today would be if someone dressed in traditional Muslim attire and got on the TV hating on America and praising 9/11, he would be automatically taken at face value.  OK................he gets drawn back to Dallas somehow..........who called him back?..........what does Oswald think he's being called back for?
4.  Harry Dean says he gets called back to Dallas by the radical right who are searching for a patsy and think they find a good candidate in Oswald.    
5.  So, are the Dallas radical right guys  asking Banister to send LHO to Dallas?  How does this happen exactly?   This transfer from New Orleans to Dallas is crucial in my view.  Thoughts?

 

regards

Jason

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

Apparently Marina decided to have her baby in Dallas not New Orleans. Ruth Paine would pick her up in New Orleans and drive her to Dallas at about the same time that Oswald would go to Mexico City to get a visa (visas) to travel to Russia. We are to believe then that Oswald is leaving his wife to her own devices while he goes to Russia. Oswald is a cold dude.

But the impersonation blows up the WC story of Oswald to Mexico City. Why impersonate Oswald if he's going to bury himself anyway? There were two forces working that were not coordinating. Besides the great work by David J disclosing the absurdity of Oswald's trip to Mexico, logic tells us Oswald never travelled to Mexico City.

So why did Oswald travel to Houston from New Orleans on 26 Sep 1963 and then to Laredo TX and then to Dallas where he met with Odio? 

Who better to control Oswald than his handler? Who was his handler?

[Sandy Larsen]

What makes you guys think that Hoover knew soon after Oswald was arrested that he was a fake commie? Hoover didn't know everything we know today.

Do you have any evidence that Hoover knew Oswald was a fake commie? I don't think you do. Because I know there were people in the CIA telling the LBJ administration that Oswald was part of communist plot. For example, I believe Win Scott was saying that.

BTW not everybody believes that Oswald's FPCC gig was an FBI thing. I believe it was a CIA thing. I think that most researchers believe the same.

 

 

[Jason Ward]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

What makes you guys think that Hoover knew soon after Oswald was arrested that he was a fake commie? Hoover didn't know everything we know today.

.

 

 

Hoover knows Oswald is a fake commie because he knows Oswald is operating out of 544 Camp Street, colocated with none other than FBI Man Guy Banister and professional conspiracist E Howard Hunt.    Bannister and Hunt don't shack up with pro-Castro Marxists.

Jason

[Chris Newton]

8 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Who was his handler?

The well dressed Latino that took him to Ray McKeown to buy guns?

[Sandy Larsen]

12 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Hoover knows Oswald is a fake commie because he knows Oswald is operating out of 544 Camp Street, colocated with none other than FBI Man Guy Banister and professional conspiracist E Howard Hunt.    Bannister and Hunt don't shack up with pro-Castro Marxists.

Just because Banister knew Oswald was a fake communist, that doesn't mean that Hoover did as well. Banister had retired from the FBI nine years prior to the assassination. The Banister/Oswald connection was a CIA one. And the CIA had painted Oswald as Castro sympathizer who was plotting with Cubans and Russians to assassinate Kennedy. That's all that Hoover knew.

I've never heard of any evidence that Hoover was aware that Oswald was a fake communist.