Angleton, the evil mastermind of the CIA. Jeff Morley talks to Lew Rockwell.

[Paz Marverde]

Rob,

are you a journalist?

[Rob Couteau]

Hi Paz, You can see my work here (below). I do mostly interviews with literary authors but now I'm interested in doing a series of conversations with some of the leading JFK-assassination authors.

http://www.tygersofwrath.com/publications.htm

 

[Paz Marverde]

1 hour ago, Rob Couteau said:

Hi Paz, You can see my work here (below). I do mostly interviews with literary authors but now I'm interested in doing a series of conversations with some of the leading JFK-assassination authors.

http://www.tygersofwrath.com/publications.htm

 

Very interesting, thank you. Jim is for sure an excellent choice. He is one of the best researchers on JFK assassination, absolutely.

About that, do you know this documentary? It is by Metta, the Italian journalist and researcher who discovered that Gelli was recruited by Angleton. That’s why, before, I stressed that, for sure, there wasn’t this news in Morley’s book. Metta owns the Centro Mondiale Commerciale papers. CMC was a mask for the CIA. Clay Shaw, the one Jim Garrison investigated, was a CMC member. What Metta also discovered is that CMC has deep connections with Angleton and with the so called Strategy of Tension

 

[Rob Couteau]

Many thanks for this. I have been following what you have said about CMC and Permindex on the forum with great interest. (And also thanks to your post had a chance to read Metta's interview with Jim, which I enjoyed.) I find that all this links up well with many of the points raised in Dick Russell's book on Nagell, in terms of a hidden international right-wing nexus, pushing a right-wing economic agenda.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Rob Couteau

[Ron Bulman]

I freely admit my total ignorance about Gelli and Borghese as well as P2 though I had heard of but not read about it.  Jeff's book was the first time I'd ever read of Borghese and he's kind of sickening.  Someone who would select at random from a town 4 people to be executed for every German who did in an attack on it should have been tried for war crimes.  That representatives of my Government facilitated the deception that allowed him to go free is also sickening.  The Black Prince is a well deserved/earned title.

In the latter 1990's in a mixed big box of books near the checkout at Kroger I came across a book called Cold Warrior, James Jesus Angleton, The CIA's Master Spy Hunter.  For 2 bucks it sounded intriguing.  Way over my head at the time, a tough read for me then.  I'd heard of Angleton but knew nothing of him or the CIA and it's structure.  I struggled through it.  It's mainly about mole hunting.  Italy is mentioned in passing on 2 pages.  Nothing about Gelli, Borgese or P2.  Dulles is mentioned on 4 pages.  I've read no other books on Angleton, only a little about him in a few other books and on the internet.

If you google Gelli you get Gelliarts , available at Walmart.  https://www.bing.com/search?q=Gelli&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=6f15ae6560b54e8dad97066191ffd807&sp=-1&pq=undefined&sc=8-5&qs=n&sk=&cvid=6f15ae6560b54e8dad97066191ffd807

If you google P2 you get this.  https://www.bing.com/search?q=P2&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=6f15ae6560b54e8dad97066191ffd807&sp=-1&pq=p2&sc=8-2&qs=n&sk=&cvid=6f15ae6560b54e8dad97066191ffd807

If you google Gelli P2 you get Licio Gelli And Propaganda Due.  Now we're getting somewhere.  https://www.bing.com/search?q=Gelli+P2&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=6f15ae6560b54e8dad97066191ffd807&sp=-1&pq=gelli+p2&sc=8-8&qs=n&sk=&cvid=6f15ae6560b54e8dad97066191ffd807

If you google Gelli P2 Angleton you find this very informative article.  Though it does not get into Angleton recruiting Gelli it addresses the situation where he could have and the bigger picture in Italy and Angleton's presence there at the time.  http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1981/eirv08n27-19810707/eirv08n27-19810707_023-a_history_of_the_p_2_conspiracy.pdf

As this is the education forum thanks to all who have and continue to educate me and others as well as leads to look for further information.  From Dallas, The USA, the UK (including Australia!), France and the rest of the World. 

 

[Rob Couteau]

Poking through "My Life: A Spoken Autobiography" by Fidel Castro, with Ignacio Ramonet. He briefly discusses the JFK assassination and Oswald on pp.289-292. And he very succinctly gets right to the heart of things: "Thank goodness we didn't give that guy [Oswald] permission to visit Cuba ... they could have used that to implicate Cuba." "Oswald may have been a double agent." The book also has some good material on the missile crisis. Link to those pages:

https://books.google.com/books?id=45yJZHaan-8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=fidel+castro+my+life&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT-6Cn087YAhVG5YMKHaTrAnkQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=oswald&f=false

Edited January 11, 2018 by Rob Couteau

[Ron Bulman]

I've read about this before but didn't absorb the import.  Trying to remember what I've read about Trento.

"Angleton leaked the CIA memo placing Hunt in Dallas"  (on 11/22/63).

"based on what Angleton told him that Hunt was in Dallas AND IT WAS ANGLETON WHO SENT HIM THERE."

http://www.libertylobby.org/articles/2000/20000207cia.html

[James DiEugenio]

The Hunt memorandum is one of the most fascinating pieces of evidence in the entire case.

Lisa Pease, who did what was probably the best long essay on Angleton, came to a different conclusion.

And I kind of share it, but spin off in a different angle.  She said that Angleton wrote it to blackmail Helms.  In other words, if I go down, you are going down with me.

I think the spin on that is correct, but I think the document was a forgery.  Cooked up by Angleton for that purpose.

 

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/6/2018 at 9:24 AM, Douglas Caddy said:

Angleton, the evil mastermind of the CIA. Jeff Morley talks to Lew Rockwell.

 

https://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/james-jesus-angleton-ghost/

 

With all due respect to Mr. Morley,

James Angleton of CI, "Pete" Bagley and "Scotty" Miler of SR/CI, and true defectors Peter Deriabin and Anatoly Golitsyn, et al., were right about defector Yuri Nosenko:  He was fake.

Question:  Why did Nosenko say KGB had had absolutely nothing to do with Lee Harvey Oswald the 2.5 years he lived in the USSR?

Even John "Nosenko Was Real!" Hart found that hard to believe, and the HSCA concluded Nosenko was lying.

LOL

 

--  Tommy 

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Gene Kelly]

Thomas:

Have you read the 1987 article by Richards J. Heuer “Nosenko: Five Paths to Judgement" in Studies in Intelligence where he lays out strategies for analyzing deception?

Gene     

 

[Thomas Graves]

10 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Thomas:

Have you read the 1987 article by Richards J. Heuer “Nosenko: Five Paths to Judgement" in Studies in Intelligence where he lays out strategies for analyzing deception?

Gene     

 

 

Gene,

With all due respect, yes I have.  Three or four months ago.  Having already read Tennent H. Bagley's "Spy Wars," and his PDF follow-up "Ghosts of the Spy Wars," I was distinctly unimpressed.  

Here's an excerpt from Heuer's "Conclusions":

"Bagley identified a plausible motive for Soviet deception and supported it with voluminous circumstantial evidence, yet Nosenko was not under Soviet control. There was an enormous number of anomalies and inconsistencies in Nosenko's story, yet they were all produced by sloppy translation and inadequate debriefing, the unique aspects of Nosenko's background and personality, genuine accident and coincidence, and the circumstances of his handling; they were not truly indicative of hostile control."  (emphasis added)

LOL!

Heuer's essay was published in 1987, twenty years before Tennent H. Bagley published his book "Spy Wars: Moles, Mysteries and Deadly Games," and twenty-eight years before Bagley's PDF follow-up "Ghosts of the Spy Wars:  A Personal Reminder to Interested Parties."

Heuer, a CIA "operations guy" for 24 years, was alive (and may still be for all I know) when "Spy Wars" came out in 2007, but never responded, as far as I know, to the many detailed and incisive points Bagley made in that book, points that destroy Heuer's thesis, imho.

Do you want me to go into great detail on this thread, Gene?  If I do so, the thread will very very long, indeed.

I have a better idea.  Why don't you read "Spy Wars," and "Ghosts of the Spy Wars," and then get back to me regarding Heuer's "take" on Cherepanov and Loginlov, and how he would go about trying to explain away Bagley's analysis of same?

https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

And while you're at it, you can take a shot at the many other Nosenko-affirming and/or mole-deflecting false defectors that Bagley writes about (but whom Heuer inexplicably doesn't mention), like Dmitri Polyakov (who was originally "bad" for FBI, but went partially "good" for CIA in Burma or India, and was arrested by KGB, secretly tried, and executed for his turning "good" like that), "The Three Muskateers" (Kulak, Guk, and "Kislov") who couldn't have been searching for the inconsequential "Andrey" for nine months in the U.S.,  "Fedora" (Kulak), etc, etc, etc ... 

 

--  Tommy 

 

PS  Here's a review of "Spy Wars."  It was co-authored by a true defector, Oleg Gordievsky.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2007/05/untangling-the-web-of-deception/

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Gene Kelly]

Thanks Tommy:

I'm still doing my due diligence in all of this.  I don't pretend to have expertise in this area (as I presume you must have, given your confident grasp of the details)  but I will read the Spy Wars references and continue to educate myself.  It seemed to me that Heuer's 1987 essay came well after Hart had confronted Bagley in 1976 with what his objections were based upon ... and over 20 years after the Solie report.  Critics of Spy Wars cite Bagley's reliance upon former KGB officers (unnamed) as his sources of information.  It certainly caused quite a rift within the intelligence community and opinions are both strong and divided , even today.  By the way, I'm a fan of peter Gabriel ...

Gene

[Thomas Graves]

59 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Thanks Tommy:

I'm still doing my due diligence in all of this.  I don't pretend to have expertise in this area (as I presume you must have, given your confident grasp of the details)  but I will read the Spy Wars references and continue to educate myself.  It seemed to me that Heuer's 1987 essay came well after Hart had confronted Bagley in 1976 with what his objections were based upon ... and over 20 years after the Solie report.  Critics of Spy Wars cite Bagley's reliance upon former KGB officers (unnamed) as his sources of information.  It certainly caused quite a rift within the intelligence community and opinions are both strong and divided , even today.  By the way, I'm a fan of peter Gabriel ...

Gene

 

Gene,

Yeah, I saw Robarge's not-too-unfavorable review of "Spy Wars," too. 

Bagley's "unnamed KGB source" in the 2007 book was none other than the still-alive, non-defector Sergey Kondrashev, former chief of KGB's First Chief Directorate (i.e. "Foreign Intelligence")

From the Wikipedia article on Nosenko:

"In 2013 Bagley wrote another book, revealing new details (and details) he (had) acquired (for his 2007 book "Spy Wars") by comparing notes with Soviet KGB Chief Sergey Kondrashev.^[16] Bagley says he had always suspected that Nosenko might be a plant and was glad to have this confirmed by Kondrashev. Both Bagley and Kondrashev expressed surprise that CIA had accepted Nosenko as genuine for as long as they had, despite more than 30 warning signs." 

 

--  Tommy 

 

PS  Here's the book that Bagley and Kondrashev co-wrote in 2013:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02684527.2017.1357886?journalCode=fint20

 

PPS  If nothing else, if you'll read the first five pages or so of this PDF, you'll get Bagley's "take" on John Hart's "comrade in arms" and predecessor, Leonard McCoy.  Hart and Solie are themselves covered in the book "Spy Wars," itself, but it's a bit more scattered "read" than the PDF (i.e., Hart is written about on pages 215-218, 259, 260, 262, 263, and 281; Solie is written about on pages 197-207, 258-259, and 285.)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Gene Kelly]

Thanks for the links, and Ill study them ... another interesting read is by DePaul University's John Kimsey (2017) “The Ends of a State: James Angleton, Counterintelligence and the New Criticism”  in International Intrigue: Plotting Espionage as Cultural Artifact (although more about modernist poetry than judging the bona fides of defectors)

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Thanks for the links, and Ill study them ... another interesting read is by DePaul University's John Kimsey (2017) “The Ends of a State: James Angleton, Counterintelligence and the New Criticism”  in International Intrigue: Plotting Espionage as Cultural Artifact (although more about modernist poetry than judging the bona fides of defectors)

Gene,

With all due respect, if it shows JJA in a positive light, I'll read it.

Lord knows there's a plethora of anti-Angleton works out there,  from Tom Mangold's execrable, twisted, half-true "Molehunt," to John Hart's  tragically laughable "The Monster Plot," to Jefferson Morley's intellectually dishonest "The Ghost." 

Etc, Etc, Etc.

What are you trying to do, impress me or something by mentioning groovy anti-Angleton stuff I may not have heard of?

LOL

--  Tommy 

(Thanks, by the way.)

Edited February 13, 2018 by Thomas Graves