David Josephs Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said: As I see it, the problem is that to the Mexican Police and to the HSCA, Sylvia Duran, like Azcue in '77-'78, effectively described the guy (with whom, I reiterate, neither Duran nor Azcue had dealt with on 9/27/63), in such a Nikolai Leonov-like way -- quite short, blond-haired, blue-eyed, 5' 7"-ish & 120 lbs -- but contradicted Azcue when she said this (virtual) dude was the same guy Ruby killed on 11/24/63. In 1978. Are you trying to say that Castro planned with Azcue and Duran to - WAIT 15 YEARS - and then stick it to the KGB by offering a description which only you at this point connects with LEONOV? As for your, and only your conclusion that the description offered MUST BE LEONOV to the exclusion of all others... if that simple yet all important assumption is wrong... that they did not have LEONOV in mind at all (since you are at best speculating about their states of mind when making these descriptions so many years later)... then not only is it 15 years late, but it is not even closely related to what you think it is.... Had you considered any of that before you went on and on over the past month about a single item... 1 detail that YOU concluded MUST be related... It was an interesting thought but it didn't pan out... Why not let it die until you or someone else has some info to move it along...?? I just don't see the point of firmly standing behind an idea which has been firmly debunked, unless you wanna be DVP when you grow up... Yet you see where your assumptions leave us. And You can't even prove the assumption beyond "what else could it be" type of evidence.... If anything, why not theorize that it was LEONOV - of the KBG - who tells Azcue to play along in a game against the USA/DFS ?? BECAUSE, LIKE YOURS, THERE'S NOTHING TO IT... IT'S JUST A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT... SO HOW ABOUT YOU ANSWER A FEW QUESTIONS? Azcue/Duran do not make their statements until 1978... how does that work with your theory that Castro used his resources to offer descriptions of a KGB "translator" to implicate Russia 15 years earlier?TIRADO - That I don't remember very well. I think he was wearing a jacket but what I can remember is that he was not wearing nice clothers (sic), expensive clothing. He was cheap, perhaps. (THIS IS IT? THIS IS THE STATEMENT THAT CASUED YOU TO START ALL THIS? He doesn't actually say the things you claim he did) So here it is... you concluding that Azcue's mention of how he imagines/visualizes Oswald must mean he was wearing a certain outfit... Nice ASSUMPTION again... but that's all it is) You wrote: Just talking clothing, was Oswald ever known to have worn a blue "Prince of Wales"-like suit with "reddish" highlights in the jacket, or, come to think of it, as Sylvia "Dissembling" Duran claimed LHO had done -- to dress noticeably poorly in formal-like situations (like visiting an embassy or a consulate, for example)? So basically, the only substance to this theory of yours is if and only if you can prove some connection with LEONOV, 15 years after the fact... I for one would love to see you pull this off...Here are the appropriate passages... Senor AZCUE. I always imagine him or visualize him as wearing a suit, coat and pants, trousers, with a pattern of crossed lines, not very clear design. Blue, some reddish. I never conceived of him or visualized him wearing a light sweater. When I saw this photograph in April of this year (1978), I also noticed that the clothing he was wearing was not the same. Mr. PREYER. So that the clothing he was wearing in the photographs was not similar to that which he was wearing when he actually visited you in the Embassy. Senor AZCUE. I am almost in a position to assure that. Mr. PREYER. When he returned with the photographs and with his application, visa application form, and his passport pictures, would you have looked at the pictures on the visa application and on the passport? Senor AZCUE. No, I did not see the photograph, nor did I witness the preparation of the form. I did not see the photograph at that time. I only saw this photograph last April, when they came to Cuba. Mr. PREYER. So that at the time of processing his visa and the passport, you never looked at the photographs, you never compared them with the Man standing before you. Senor AZCUE. No, I was never present during the preparation of this form nor of the affixing of the photograph. And it is also signed by Mirabal. And in the normal course of business this is a matter that goes to Cuba. It is generally kept until it is prepared for shipment in the next plane, outgoing plane, and there was no reason for me to go back searching for this form. What happens NEXT in this grand plan that only you see? You've repeated the same a number of times now... assuming you can answer #1 and have it make any sense... what happens in 1978 and beyond to support your theory? Did you read any of Golitsyn's books? Not sure why you wont answer... All this Nosenko talk it would be a shame if you never bothered to read any of the man's work.... What do you think is the most important take-away from SPY WARS that was not already pretty well known? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) On 3/9/2018 at 2:24 PM, David Josephs said: ....... Azcue/Duran do not make their statements until 1978... how does that work with your theory that Castro used his resources to offer descriptions of a KGB "translator" to implicate Russia 15 years earlier? ....... David, With all due respect, according to contemporary CIA records, 5' 3.5" - 5' 3.75" Sylvia Duran, to the Mexican Police in late November, 1963, first started describing the Oswald Impersonator (with whom she and Azcue had probably not even dealt!) as being short (even by her standards) and blond-haired https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3025&search=#relPageId=7&tab=page Nikolai Leonov was only 5' 7" tall, and he was blond-haired. (Five-seven is short, yes?) I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, David, but do you think the CIA forced the Mexican Police to force Duran to say that? Then in 1978 when she was testifying to the HSCA, Duran added that "Oswald" had blue or green eyes, and that he was wearing a coat. Yep, Nikolai Leonov had blue eyes, all right. And wouldn't you know it ... as "Third Secretary" at the Soviet Embassy, (KGB colonel) Leonov was in the habit of wearing a sport coat / suit jacket, especially, one would think, on work days, no matter how warm it might be in Mexico City in late September. So, your implication that Sylvia Duran didn't start describing the (probably non-existent) Oswald Impersonator in a Leonov-like-way until 1978 is highly misleading at the best. -- Tommy PS Regarding your insinuation that colonel Leonov was only a "translator," I found a little something today that you might find interesting ,,, "Between 1983 and January 1991, General Nikolai Leonov was Sub-Director of the State Security Committee (KGB) of the Soviet Union, the second most important post within the KGB structure. Previously he was Sub-Director of the KGB’s Analysis and Information Department (1973-1982) and Sub-Director of its Latin American Department (1968-1972). General Leonov is Doctor in Latin American History, at the USSR Academy of Sciences, and author of the book, Essays on Contemporary Central American History (Moscow: Ed. Nauka, Academy of Sciences, 1973). In 1985 he published his memoirs under the title Difficult Times (Moscow: International Relations). Currently he is a professor at the Institute of International Relations in Moscow." https://cepchile.cl/cep/site/artic/20160303/asocfile/20160303183724/rev73.leonov-lect_ing.pdf PPS Although I've never "dropped acid," I'm thinking that I might have to do so just to be able to understand your highly scattered and "mysto," modern poetry-like posts ... dude. Edited March 12, 2018 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 5'7" isn't short to someone 5'3" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said: David, With all due respect, according to contemporary CIA records, 5' 3.5" Sylvia Duran, to the Mexican Police in late November, 1963, first started describing the Oswald Impersonator (with whom she and Azcue had probably not even dealt!) as being short and blond-haired https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3025&search=#relPageId=7&tab=page Nikolai Leonov was only 5' 7" tall, and he was blond-haired. (Five-seven is short, yes?) Then in 1978 when she was testifying to the HSCA, Duran added that "Oswald" had blue or green eyes, and that he was wearing a coat. Yep, Nikolai Leonov had blue eyes, all right. And wouldn't you know it ... as "Third Secretary" at the Soviet Embassy, (KGB colonel) Leonov was in the habit of wearing a coat, especially, one would think, on work days, no matter how warm it might be in Mexico City in late September. So, your implication that Sylvia Duran didn't start describing the (probably non-existent) Oswald Impersonator in a Leonov-like-way until 1978 is highly misleading at the best. -- Tommy PS Regarding your insinuation that colonel Leonov was only a "translator," I found a little something today that you might find interesting ,,, "Between 1983 and January 1991, General Nikolai Leonov was Sub-Director of the State Security Committee (KGB) of the Soviet Union, the second most important post within the KGB structure. Previously he was Sub-Director of the KGB’s Analysis and Information Department (1973-1982) and Sub-Director of its Latin American Department (1968-1972). General Leonov is Doctor in Latin American History, at the USSR Academy of Sciences, and author of the book, Essays on Contemporary Central American History (Moscow: Ed. Nauka, Academy of Sciences, 1973). In 1985 he published his memoirs under the title Difficult Times (Moscow: International Relations). Currently he is a professor at the Institute of International Relations in Moscow." https://cepchile.cl/cep/site/artic/20160303/asocfile/20160303183724/rev73.leonov-lect_ing.pdf PPS Although I've never "dropped acid," I'm thinking that I might have to do so just to be able to understand your highly scattered and "mysto," modern poetry-like posts ... dude. I find David's quotes quite coherent. (bold emphasis added). Edited March 10, 2018 by Michael Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said: 5'7" isn't short to someone 5'3" Paul, With all due respect, when a woman who is 5' 3.5" or 5' 3.75" (as Duran was) says that a man is "short," I think some poor guy who is only 5' 7" (iirc, I've also seen a document that said Leonov was 5' 6") certainly falls into that stigmatized category as far as she, and most women, are concerned. Do you really think she was describing a hypothetical white American man who was only 5' 4", five-and one-half inches shorter than Oswald? How plausible would it have been for some (even imaginary, as in this case) impersonator THAT short to try to ... "impersonate" ... 5' 9.5" Oswald? -- Tommy PS Sorry if I've hurt your feelings, Paul. You're ... like ... 5' 2", right? Edited March 10, 2018 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, Michael Clark said: I find David's quotes quite coherent. (bold emphasis added). Care to comment on the rest of the post? -- Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 12 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said: Care to comment on the rest of the post? -- Tommy Sure. In the Leonov lecture that you posted, do you think that Leonov's observations on P. 3, paragraph 2 are correct? If so, how enlightening are those comments with regard to this thread, the case at hand, and how do they work into your theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Tommy - I was under the impression that Duran said her visitor was short like herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Just now, Michael Clark said: Sure. In the Leonov lecture that you posted, do you think that Leonov's observations on P. 3, paragraph 2 are correct? If so, how enlightening are those comments with regard to this thread, the case at hand, and how do they work into your theory? Oh, Am I supposed to have read the transcript of his 1998 lecture? Hmm. Well, if I promise to read it, will you read Tennent H. Bagley's 35-page PDF, "Ghosts of the Spy Wars"? Which, if I remember correctly, deals with the general issue of "KGB" counterintelligence ops, both the 90 year-old "active measures" sort, and "strategic deception" kind that's been interwoven with the former for about 58 years now? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362 -- Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said: Oh, Am I supposed to have read the transcript of his 1998 lecture? -- Tommy Have you read the one paragraph that I referenced, from the document that David posted? If so, surely you don't mind answering the few questions I posed, do you? It's just a teensy-weeny paragraph. And just a few short questions....Here they are: In the Leonov lecture that David posted, do you think that Leonov's observations on P. 3, paragraph 2 are correct? If so, how enlightening are those comments with regard to this thread, the case at hand, and how do they work into your theory? Edited March 10, 2018 by Michael Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Paul Brancato said: Tommy - I was under the impression that Duran said her visitor was short like herself. Paul, Are you capable of thinking in relativistic terms, Maestro? You are? Good! Well, are men generally taller than women? -- Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said: Paul, Are you capable of thinking in relativistic terms, Maestro? You are? Good! Well, are men generally taller than women? -- Tommy Tommy, Will you post what Duran actually said in her testimony? That would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Michael Clark said: Have you read the one paragraph that I referenced, from the document that David posted? If so, surely you don't mind answering the few questions I posed, do you? Here they are: In the Leonov lecture that you posted, do you think that Leonov's observations on P. 3, paragraph 2 are correct? If so, how enlightening are those comments with regard to this thread, the case at hand, and how do they work into your theory? Sorry, but I'm busy right now, fending off Paul "Tall Guy" Brancato, who seems to believe that a blond-haired, blue-or-green-eyed, sport coat or suit jacket-wearing "American-looking" guy who was only ... 5' 4" ... or ... (gasp) ... 5' 4.5" ... tried to impersonate 5' 9.5" Oswald, or, even more implausibly, that Sylvia Duran expected the Mexican Police and the HSCA to believe that. You know, ... that a blond American-looking midget had tried to impersonate slightly shorter-than-average (but still 5' 9.5") Oswald? So, seein' as how I'm busy, why don't you inform us of what Leonov's "observations" were in that 1998 lecture of his, and whether or not you agree with his "take" in the context of the JFK assassination, if that's even possible? And while you're at it, why could you please explain why Leonov told National Enquirer about that same time (iirc) that HE dealt one-on-one with a pistol-brandishing, emotional Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on Sunday, September 29? Was he just trying to sow more confusion among Tinfoil Hat-Wearing Conspiracy Theorists? But, but, but ... Why would a nice KGB guy do that? -- Tommy Wait. You want me to read something you referenced from something David had posted??? LOL Edited March 10, 2018 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Here's the thing Tommy. You got nothing. KGB didn't kill our president, and with all due respect, I don't think you seriously believe they did. You're just here stirring the pot, enjoying your cleverness, mocking everyone. Amazing to me that anyone would get off frittering their time away with such a useless preoccupation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said: Here's the thing Tommy. You got nothing. KGB didn't kill our president, and with all due respect, I don't think you seriously believe they did. You're just here stirring the pot, enjoying your cleverness, mocking everyone. Amazing to me that anyone would get off frittering their time away with such a useless preoccupation. Paul, With all due respect. So, you can't rebut the specific things I've posted during the past hour or two, huh? -- Tommy PS Actually, the more I think about it the more I realize that Fidel Castro probably dood da deed. Missed my previous post (couple of weeks ago) to that effect, huh? Edited March 10, 2018 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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