The KGB and the JFK case

[David Josephs]

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 1:12 PM, Michael Clark said:

PPS  Although I've never "dropped acid," I'm thinking that I might have to do so just to be able to understand your highly scattered and "mysto," modern poetry-like posts ... dude.

Maybe try "reading with comprehension" classes... safer than the LSD

Only those who are perpetually stuck within an unsupported and uncorroborated theory/rebuttal loop have trouble following the responses since they

1. offer support for what I am saying
2. offer support in opposition to what you are offering
3. provide the visual support and links for those to follow up on their own

What they don't do is point to a book and state "the answer's in there"... without a second word unless persistently and painfully extracted...

bottom line... what beyond this terribly thin excuse for a connection do you have to put the KGB in the middle of the JFK assassination?

From what I'm reading, Permindex and Canada (connected ultimately to Sun Life of Canada/London and the purchase of BELL via TEXTRON) is a much more likely scenario...

Maybe the real problem here is you simply don't understand the extent of the FBI cover-up to his NOT being at ODIO's on the 27th... not being at the Sports Drome on the 28th, and that HENRY - the greatest disconnect next to GOODPASTURE's Oswald photo... was a Angleton/CIA construct for a number of reasons... many of which we simply cannot know.

But if you have more than what you've offered... please expand... so far, nothing has been moved forward on this theory at all...

[David Josephs]

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:41 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Sorry, "Big D", but I'm not interested in reading about his "more speculative pointers and notions," the stuff that tinfoil hat-wearing Conspiracy Theorists like to point to and shout at the top of their lungs "See dere?  I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean ..... Da guy was a delusional pair-wah-noid!"

So the answer is NO, you did not read any of Golitsyn's books...  IOW you do or do not accept that the KGB was/is all about deception, not stealing secrets but creating false ones...

 

The reality is that you simply don't like to learn things which conflict with your theories and make them pointless... so you don't.

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/12/2018 at 7:42 AM, David Josephs said:

  .......

"What ... do you have to put the KGB in the middle of the JFK assassination?"

 

As I've said a couple of times recently, it seems more likely that Castro patsied both the CIA and the KGB, and that after the assassination, the Ruskies tried to do some damage control (and patch up relations with that incorrigible rogue, Fidel?) by having Nosenko, Yatsov, Nechiporenko, Kostikov, and yes, even widdle blond-haired, very thin-faced Nikolai Leonov say that Oswald was one wild and crazy guy, boy, you know, more than capable of killing a president all by him not-quite-so-widdle 5' 9.5", brown-haired, not-so-very-thin-faced self.

  .......

 

Quote

  .......

"From what I'm reading ... connected ultimately ..... "

 

Ultimately? Like, heaven forbid, other than on this forum I connect to you somehow through upteen degrees of separation?

  .......

"[T]he FBI cover[ed]-up ... his NOT being at ODIO's on the 27th... not being at the Sports Drome on the 28th, and that HENRY - the greatest disconnect next to GOODPASTURE's Oswald photo... was a Angleton/CIA construct for a number of reasons... many of which we simply cannot know."

 

LOL  Why would Hoover's FBI cooperate with that evil, evil, evil Angleton on anything?? Disconnects?  Not to mention Marina's father, Marina's "uncle," Marina's forgetting to tell State she'd  been a hookin' member of Komsomol, Marina's ... ?

  .......

 

Big D,

 

With all due respect, I'm terribly sorry about the disjointed post.

You must be rubbing off on me, again.

 

--  Tommy 

PS  Out, out damned Spot?

PPS  You do realize that Leonard McCoy was a piece of work, don't you?

You haven't read the first five or so pages of "Ghosts of the Spy Wars" yet, have you?

 

Pity that.

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

please do not paraphrase my posts

what I asked was:

"what beyond this terribly thin excuse for a connection do you have to put the KGB in the middle of the JFK assassination? "

yet this is your answer...

As I've said a couple of times recently, it seems more likely that Castro patsied both the CIA and the KGB, and that after the assassination, the Ruskies tried to do some damage control by having Nosenko, Yatsov, Nechiporenko, Kostikov, and yes, even widdle blond-haired, very thin-faced Nikolai Leonov say that Oswald was one wild and crazy guy, boy, you know, more than capable of killing a president all by him not-quite-so-widdle 5' 9.5", brown-haired self.

"it seems more like" is part of a theory, not solution.   I can give you many other reasons for the people you name to have done what they did having nothing to do whatsoever with Oswald and JFK....  nor have you connected LEONOV to anything....

your attempts at wit... or "wid" given your new spelling preferences Mr. Fudd doesn't hide that you never answer the qwestion  

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by David Josephs

[Michael Clark]

7 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Maybe try "reading with comprehension" classes... safer than the LSD

Only those who are perpetually stuck within an unsupported and uncorroborated theory/rebuttal loop have trouble following the responses since they

1. offer support for what I am saying
2. offer support in opposition to what you are offering
3. provide the visual support and links for those to follow up on their own

What they don't do is point to a book and state "the answer's in there"... without a second word unless persistently and painfully extracted...

bottom line... what beyond this terribly thin excuse for a connection do you have to put the KGB in the middle of the JFK assassination?

From what I'm reading, Permindex and Canada (connected ultimately to Sun Life of Canada/London and the purchase of BELL via TEXTRON) is a much more likely scenario...

Maybe the real problem here is you simply don't understand the extent of the FBI cover-up to his NOT being at ODIO's on the 27th... not being at the Sports Drome on the 28th, and that HENRY - the greatest disconnect next to GOODPASTURE's Oswald photo... was a Angleton/CIA construct for a number of reasons... many of which we simply cannot know.

But if you have more than what you've offered... please expand... so far, nothing has been moved forward on this theory at all...

David, you quoted TG as though they were my words. Walton did the same thing a couple days ago.

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/12/2018 at 3:18 PM, Michael Clark said:

David, you quoted TG as though they were my words. Walton did the same thing a couple days ago.

 

Mice "cover job," again.

Dang it.  Hard to type "vermin" on a tiny android. Was that an evil, evil, evil CIA-directed "autocorrect," a Freudian slip, or due to the fact that I, @ 6'' 5" and 255 lbs, have and unusually large little finger ... even, and that the "n" and the "m" are only about 1/4" apart on this so-called device?

Regardless, as you can see I've decided to leave it as it is -- for the poetic beauty of it all! 

Duly noted?

.......

Back to your apparent "cover job," though ...

Not to worry,   I'll just wait at least the Forum Rules-required 24 hours and "bump" it.

Who will "cover" it almost immediately then? 

You, or his "Ditto", "I agree 100%" personal cheerleader?

Should you flip a virtual bitcoin?

 

--  Tommy 

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Clark]

5 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Mice "cover job," again.

(Dang it.  Hard to type "vermin" on a tiny android.)

Not to worry, though.  I'll just wait at least the Forum Rules-required 24 hours and "bump" it.

Who will "cover" it almost immediately then? 

You, or his "Ditto", "I agree 100%" personal cheerleader?

Should you flip a virtual bitcoin?

 

--  Tommy 

 

That's bizarre TG. What are you talking about..... "cover"?

Do you realize how strange your posts are?

 

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Michael Clark

[Thomas Graves]

13 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

That's bizarre TG. What are you talking about..... "cover"?

Do you realize how strange your posts are?

 

 

"There you go again!"

--  Tommy.

[Kirk Gallaway]

22 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

 Because family friends of his girlfriend were taking heat for hosting the family of an alleged Presidential assassin?

Because a fella realizes he's in the patsy chain unless he directs the cover-up to the best of his ability?

 

 

It is worth noting. Certainly on the surface the theory of Dulles Payne family complicity in the Kennedy assassination seems similarly just as unlikely as 1) George Bush hanging around on the street during the aftermath of the assassination and 2) The alleged Murchison meeting the night before.

It is interesting to note that Talbot makes a case against Dulles in the Devil's Chessboard but largely leaves the Paine's alone, seeking only to note the  peculiar situations and coincidences involving the Paines.

As I recall, I think he also made a reference to Michael Paine  now living up in the Santa Rosa Ca. area just as Ruth does. But I've heard more recently  he lives in Waltham Mass.I

[Thomas Graves]

4 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

It is worth noting. Certainly on the surface the theory of Dulles Payne family complicity in the Kennedy assassination seems similarly just as unlikely as 1) George Bush hanging around on the street during the aftermath of the assassination and 2) The alleged Murchison meeting the night before.

It is interesting to note that Talbot makes a case against Dulles in the Devil's Chessboard but largely leaves the Paine's alone, seeking only to note the  peculiar situations and coincidences involving the Paines.

As I recall, I think he also made a reference to Michael Paine  now living up in the Santa Rosa Ca. area just as Ruth does. But I've heard more recently  he lives in Waltham Mass.I

 

Kirk,

 

With all due respect, I'm not sure if you're serious about "Bush in Dealey Plaza," but ... in case you didn't know ... that Bush lookalike was proved to be someone else.

 

--  Tommy 

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Kirk Gallaway]

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Kirk,

 

With all due respect, I'm not sure if you're serious about "Bush in Dealey Plaza," but ... in case you didn't know ... that Bush lookalike was proved to be someone else.

 

--  Tommy 

 

Hmmm, W.A.D.R. Tommy, read it again!

Certainly on the surface the theory of Dulles Payne family complicity in the Kennedy assassination seems similarly just as unlikely as 1) George Bush hanging around on the street during the aftermath of the assassination and 2) The alleged Murchison meeting the night before.

Another one would be LBJ enlisting a personal acquaintance, Malcolm Wallace , as JFK's assassin.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Kirk Gallaway

[Thomas Graves]

11 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Hmmm, W.A.D.R. Tommy, read it again!

Certainly on the surface the theory of Dulles Payne family complicity in the Kennedy assassination seems similarly just as unlikely as 1) George Bush hanging around on the street during the aftermath of the assassination and 2) The alleged Murchison meeting the night before.

 

Dear Kirk,

That's what I was hoping you'd meant, but the thought did cross my mind that maybe you didn't understand double-negatives.

Or something.

Hmm.  Must have been that ambivalent "certainly on the surface" phrase that threw me ...

--  Tommy 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/3/2018 at 7:40 PM, James DiEugenio said:

 On 2/3/2018 at 6:07 PM, Pamela Brown said:

My impression was that JJA was blindsided by KGB and did not realize how severely CIA had become destabilized by them.  JJA was unable to properly assess Nosenko when he came into the picture and tortured him, trying to get information Nosenko simply did not have.  

 

Tom Graves replied:

 

Pamela,

It's evident that you haven't read Tennent H. Bagley's 35-page (2015  PDF) "Ghosts of the Spy Wars," much less his 2007 book, "Spy Wars."

Both are free to read on the Internet.

Or maybe you have, and you think Bagley's a  l-i-a-r?

--  TG

PS  Are you aware that, according to Bagley, he and CIA psychologist John Gittinger both witnessed Nosenko, near the "breaking point" twice, mutter to himself, "I can't tell them the truth, I can't tell them the truth ..."? 

As though he'd been KGB "MKULTRAed" before he was sent here?

 

 

Quote

 

James DiEugenio replied:

 

Pamela:

Some background of what TG just wrote and also a correction.

Angleton was quite ready for Nosenko;  he was getting ready for him months in advance.  In fact, he had already created a large file on the man before Bagley brought him over.

See, Angleton bushwacked both Nosenko and Bagley.  Bagley originally believed Nosenko.  Angleton knew that.  So when Bagley came back  from Europe, Angleton sat him down in a room, stacked his file in front of him and made his case that Nosenko was a false defector.  And it worked.  Bagley bought into it and reversed field.

Why is this important?  Because this is what caused the entire imprisonment of Nosenko at the hands of Angleton, aided by Helms. Virtually every person who kept Nosenko imprisoned, and then psychologically tortured him, had been handpicked by Angleton's team.  It went on for three years, because Dirty Dick (my name for Helms) approved it.

Now, if Angleton already had his mind made up, and his whole intent was to be judge, jury and executioner, then what was the whole purpose of the three year ordeal?  Well, it was essentially a POW camp for Nosenko.  

Finally, after this rather despicable trial by torture, a vote was taken and Helms allowed a neutral party to examine the process.  Which is how we got the Hart Report, which was the initial step in  setting the man free.  Now this was a key point in Angleton's career, since most commentators look at it at the beginning of the end for him.  And Anlgeton's backers have always stated that the Hart Report only analyzed the torture aspect not Nosenko's story.  This is not true. Hart mentioned some of the problems with Nosenko's statements and he said that it was common with defectors to try to oversell themselves so they can get a better deal.  Bill Colby had already had a look at what Angleton had done in his unfettered state as provided to him by Helms and Dulles. Colby did not buy Angleton's methods or his ideas about the Cold War, which to him had essentially paralyzed the CIA.  Along with ruining several lives--which the CIA later on had to pay money to some of these innocent people Angleton had persecuted.

Even Mike Holzman, who is rather kind to Angleton his his biography, has to admit that Nosenko turned out to be one of the most valuable defectors the CIA had, much better than Golitsyn., 

As per Angleton vs Nosenko on LHO, I mean look, anyone who studies Oswald from his time in the marines, and even before, that is with Ferrie in the CAP, understands he was being groomed as a false defector.  (See Destiny Betrayed, second edition, Chapter 7, "On Instructions from his Government.")  The Soviets understood this instantly. Mainly because the CIA had been doing it with increasing frequency through the years, especially 1957-59. Plus Oswald was not a really well rehearsed fake defector.

 This is why they sent him to Minsk and then put a ring of intel around him. Is that how you recruit someone? I doubt it.

Its stuff like this that made Colby promise himself  that if he was ever in a position to terminate Angleton, he would do so.  And, thank God for us all, he did.  But it was a bit late for JFK. And Oswald.

 

 

My reply to James DiEugenio:

 

 

James,

 

Have you watched this, yet?

You're in it, you know. 

 

My favorite part is when Peter Dale Scott turns to John Newman near the end of Part 2 and says "You've just now convinced me that Nosenko was a false defector." 

 

 

--  TG

 

Edited May 5, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/19/2018 at 9:54 PM, James DiEugenio said:

But Sandy:

I still don't know what Angleton is talking about.

What arrest of Oswald, and what picture of Leontov or Leonov or whatever the heck the guy's name is?

When did that happen and where is the picture among his belongings?

Dear James,

From the context of what Senator Baker had asked Angleton just a minute or two earlier, and Angleton's response thereto, it's clear that Mr. Schwarz meant to say "Fidel Castro," instead of "Oswald," and that they were all talking about KGB-boy  Nikolai Leonov (you know, the quite short, very thin-faced "Blond Oswald in Mexico City"?) rather than some dude named "Leontov".
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1447#relPageId=12&tab=page

 

MFF page 12:

Senator Baker:  ... Do you have an opinion as to whether or not Oswald was in fact a Soviet agent?

Mr. Angleton:  Well, let me put it to you this way.  I don't think that the Oswald case is dead.  There are too many leads that were never followed up.  There's too much information that has been developed later.  For example, in 1966, in a Soviet book on Cuba there is a photograph of Khrushchev, a photograph of Castro, a photograph of a man named Alexiev, real name Shettov, KGB, with the First Soviet Ambassador to Havana, and a man named Leontov (sic), who was the Soviet KGB operational man in Mexico.  When the Mexican police arrested Castro as a student, they found in his notebooks the name Leontov (sic), KGB, Mexico.

MFF page 15: 

Mr Schwarz:  Can I follow up some of the questions that Senator Baker asked you about Oswald?  What about the pictures, one of which was a picture of Leontov (sic) that was in a piece of paper found in Mr. Oswald's (sic) pocket when he was arrested in Mexico? 

Mr Angleton:  There is an allegation.  (Possible meaning: "I haven't heard of that.")

Mr Schwarz:  What connection is there between that picture and that allegation and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr Angleton:  The only thing is, Oswald's trip to Mexico was to go to Cuba allegedly to contact the Soviets.

 

I mean, I mean, I mean, you do realize don't you,  James, that Fidel Castro was arrested in Mexico in 1956, a couple of years after KGB-boy Nikolai Leonov had turned Raul Castro (and later, Che Guevara) onto Communism during a "chance" meeting on a ship?

 

"In 1953, at the age of 25, Leonov was posted to Mexico City, where he learned Spanish at the Autonomous University. In the course of the sea voyage, he met Raúl Castro, who was returning from a European youth festival. On arrival in Mexico he took up a junior post in the Soviet embassy."  -- Wikipedia article on Nikolai Leonov

 

For your edification, James, the evil, evil, evil CIA document below says that Leonov's "personal card" was found in Castro's wallet when he was arrested.  In Mexico.  In 1956.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48495&relPageId=3

In my humble opinion, a "personal card" (business card?) makes more sense to me than some silly photo of Leonov, wouldn't you agree, James? 

I mean, I mean, I mean, Fidel Castro and the KGB dude who turned his brother and Che onto Communism may have been "close," but I seriously doubt that they were "going steady."

Mistakes all around, eh, James?

Par for the course in the JFK Assassination, and "fertile rounds" for "Tin Foil Hat Wearing" conspiracy theorists, in my humble opinion!

--  TG


 

Left to Right:  Fidel Castro, Nikolai Leonov, Raul Castro

 

OMG, is that a Prince of Wales suit?  (Note the narrow, lighter-colored vertical stripes in the sleeve.)



 

 

Edited May 5, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Joe Bauer]

On 2/2/2018 at 3:30 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Since Tommy G has been bouncing all over the forum trying to promote his KGB did it concept, why not give him his own thread?

To my knowledge, no one has proposed this since Epstein in Legend, which we all know was  done in cooperation with Angleton.

Even there, Epstein kind of hedged his bets at at the end and gave himself a Castro did it out.  I think most of us would say that the book is not really a stellar effort since it really does not deal in any way with the evidence in the case. In that regard, it resembles PJM and her acolyte Jean Davison, and her horrendous Oswald's Game.

Legend in my view, and Epstein taken as a case study, does not inspire confidence since in any discussion of his career, its pretty evident that Epstein flipped sides somewhere along the line. And the idea that the KGB was behind the murder of JFK does not have many followers that I know of.  In fact I know of none.

Let me explain why:

1. If the Russians were behind the hit, why would they hire Richard Case Nagell to track down the actual conspiracy. Further, the Russians knew that there was a domestic plot and that  the actual conspirators would try to  blame the communists.  

2. In the recently declassified files, both the leader of the USSR, Nikita K, and the upper level of the KGB, strongly suspect a right wing plot involving US security forces and they urge the American authorities to do a very vigorous inquiry.

3.  There is no evidence I know of that Oswald was ever recruited by the KGB.  In fact, from what I know, the Russians had Oswald smoked out very early as a CIA fake defector--which he was.  Oswald knew that and he had to fake a suicide attempt to even be allowed to stay in the country.  

4. But even at that, they then shipped him 400 miles from the seat of government to Minsk.  And they then surrounded him with a ring of electronic and human surveillance. Why would they do that if they had recruited Oswald?

5.  What is the evidence that once Oswald left the USSR, that he had any KGB contacts in the USA? The White Russians' goal was to overthrow the Communists in Moscow.  George DeM stated that he would never have met Oswald if it had not been requested of him by his CIA handler J. Walton Moore. And I also think most of us know that when the Baron went to Haiti he was working in tandem with the CIA again.

6. It is clear that once Oswald left for New Orleans he was again associating with reactionary, CIA associated figures like Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and Guy Banister. And also with some Cuban exiles.  Where was the KGB?

7. When he returns to Dallas from Mexico, is anyone going to argue that the Paines or Wesley Frazier were Russian agents?

8. In Mexico City, I mean please. What is the evidence that he even visited the Russian Embassy? If we recall, Phillips once said that when all was said and done, there would be none.  David Josephs has come up with some revolutionary work on this subject. And it is going to get even more convincing I predict.  To the point that I believe it will set a new paradigm.  But even if you buy the whole Passport to Assassination book, which I do not, where is the tie in between the Russians and Oswald in Dallas?  

9. What was the KGB tie in with Jack Ruby?  How did they influence him to kill their agent, Oswald?

10. How did the KGB arrange to falsify the autopsy at Bethesda that night?  Was Curtis LeMay a secret double agent? Is that why he was flying in from Michigan that afternoon?

In light of the above, why would anyone even begin to postulate such an idea?

Number 9 is the one of the most obvious KGB/Castro did it contradictions.

 

And who was behind RFK's and MLK's assassinations?

Did the KGB and Castro organize these also?  Seems they picked the wrong leaders to knock off if they did.

And if the KGB and or Castro didn't whack RFK and King...who did?  Some other foreign power?

JFK, RFK, King...the only leaders who could actually garner more support and influence and effect "real" change within our entire society than the usual powers to be.

Those kinds of leaders are the biggest threats. And obviously, the only way you could stop their momentum ( the electoral process was in their favor ) was by... executive action.

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Joe Bauer