“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[John Butler]

31 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

I'm not following you

When Wiegman ran down Elm St, the JFK Limo had not even gone under the Triple Underpass

This is what you are supposed to see and believe about Wiegman, motorcade stoppages, times between films, and how the plaza was cleared after the assassination.  From Wiegman's early frames.

But, look close.  Is that really the presidential limousine going under the underpass?  It is not a convertible.  The presidential limo, the SS security vehicle, and Johnson's vehicle were all convertibles.  Because of that I judge this frame to be edited.  No one on the underpass plays hell with Altgens 7.  Somebody didn't get the right script and put the railroad men on the underpass.  If your vision and imagination is good you might see a blob on the right which might represent Officer Foster.

Next, is what Wiegman really filmed.

This an the next frame from Couch-Darnell gave me the idea that the motorcade moved down Elm Street in segments with varying intervals of being halted.

That's about it.  Most folks find some fault with this reasoning because it messes with many things they have learned over the years about the assassination and the timing of Prayerman in front of the TSBD.  It definitely destroys Altgens 7.  Of course, many other films also do that also.

A good question might be how long does it take to go from the TSBD to the underpass and be out of sight?

 

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Please identify each car you see in this image

[John Butler]

6 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Please identify each car you see in this image

The first is the Mayor’s Car.  The rest I am not certain.  The vehicle in front should be the Vice-Presidents security vehicle.  There is one or two vehicles can be seen throuh the windshield of the Mayors Car.  Down by the underpass appears to be a dark hardtop vehicle.  The imagery is fairly vague.  It doesnt appear to be a convertible.

The Mayors Car was behind the Johnson vehicles.  Thats what should be there.

This frame is before the one showing no vehicles in front.

[Tony Krome]

5 minutes ago, John Butler said:

The first is the Mayor’s Car.  The rest I am not certain.  The vehicle in front should be the Vice-Presidents security vehicle.  There is one or two vehicles can be seen throuh the windshield of the Mayors Car.  Down by the underpass appears to be a dark hardtop vehicle.  The imagery is fairly vague.  It doesnt appear to be a convertible.

The Mayors Car was behind the Johnson vehicles.  Thats what should be there.

This frame is before the one showing no vehicles in front.

Mayor Cabell and his wife were in a white 1964 Ford Comet Caliente Convertible

[John Butler]

Y

23 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Mayor Cabell and his wife were in a white 1964 Ford Comet Caliente Convertible

Good catch.  I have confused the National Press Pool Car with the Mayors Cars order.

There is still aproblem with this frame.  Where is the Mayors Car?  It should be in front of the press pool vehicle.

I’ll be interested in your comment.   What do you think is going on there?   There are no vehicles in front of the press pool car in the other frame.

Whats going on there?

I think I confused the vehicles because I didnt see the Mayors Car in front of the National Press Pool Car.

This is Wiegman.  Where did the Mayors Car disappear to?  It is in earlier scenes but not in the two frames I posted.  There is not enough time for it to speed off ahead of other vehicles.

Edited March 15, 2019 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

5 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Y

Good catch.  I have confused the National Press Pool Car with the Mayors Cars order.

There is still aproblem with this frame.  Where is the Mayors Car?  It should be in front of the press pool vehicle.

I’ll be interested in your comment.   There are no vehicles in front of the press pool car in the other frame.

Whats going on there?

The Mayor's car can be seen through the windshield of the National Press Pool Car

The white hardtop on the left is the Vice Presidential Secret Service Follow Up Car which is a hardtop Yellow Ford Mercury

[John Butler]

11 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

The Mayor's car can be seen through the windshield of the National Press Pool Car

The white hardtop on the left is the Vice Presidential Secret Service Follow Up Car which is a hardtop Yellow Ford Mercury

I agree on security vehicle.  

You have better eyes than mine.  It looks like the Johnson vehicle.  Otherwise that puts the Mayors Car in front of the Johnson security vehicle.

What is your opinion on the vehicle going under the underpass?

What is your oplnlon on no railroad men on the railroad bridge?

i think you are right.  There maybe heads sticking up and visible through the windshield.

So, whats going on in the other Wiegman frame?

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

I agree on security vehicle.  

You have better eyes than mine.  It looks like the Johnson vehicle.  Otherwise that puts the Mayors Car in front of the Johnson security vehicle.

What is your opinion on the vehicle going under the underpass?

What is your oplnlon on no railroad men on the railroad bridge?

When you wind back this scene, the JFK Limo is just entering the Triple Underpass and the other PARKED motorcycle can be seen on the far left of the Wiegman Frame

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Tony Krome

[John Butler]

8 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

When you wind back this scene, the JFK Limo is just entering the Triple Underpass and the other PARKED motorcycle can be seen on the far left of the Wiegman Frame

 

Thanks Tony,

No worries with what you are saying about Bell.  Bell is not helpful in determining whether the vehicle under the underpass in the Wiegman frame is a convertible or not.  I was relying on your good eyes to make a determination on that. 

Bell has problems with the imagery down by the underpass.  It is one of my arguments for a general film editing of films that show the assassination and aftermath.  Here's a couple of examples:

1.  Bell shows no one on the railroad tracks.  Then just a few frames later does.

2.  There are 3 motorbike policemen show on the far side of the underpass.  They don't appear to move at all when all the other vehicles do.  I'll use your Bell frame to explain.  About where the Vice Prez car is would be where the presidential limo would be in earlier frames.  The motorbike cops don't appear to move from those kind of scenes to the one you posted.

3.  There should be 5 motorbikes rather than 3.  Some of the officers in the lead motorbikes said they went back to the TSBD or Grassy Knoll or stopped in the plaza.  However, there is one Bell frame showing all 5 beyond the underpass.  The frame is so blurry it probably isn't worth mentioning.

One of the big things about Bell is the railroad workers.  They are not there in Wiegman and Bell.  Officer W. Barnett said he saw 1 or 2 officers on the railroad bridge and no one else.  Others have said the same thing.  These would be John Martin, Malcom Couch,  and another film or photo such as the lady who filmed from the Old Courthouse whose name escapes me for the moment.  Patsy Paschall?  I believe one of the photos I used came from her film. 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

51 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Tony,

No worries with what you are saying about Bell.  Bell is not helpful in determining whether the vehicle under the underpass in the Wiegman frame is a convertible or not.  I was relying on your good eyes to make a determination on that. 

I've taken the JFK Limo out of the Zapruder film just before it reaches the triple underpass and placed above the car in Wiegman

Hope this helps

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Tony Krome

[John Butler]

4 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

I've taken the JFK Limo out of the Zapruder film just before it reaches the triple underpass and placed over the car in Wiegman

Hope this helps

 

Tony,

Sorry.  I don't agree.  The blowup makes the car look more like a hardtop.  I appreciate your good efforts in picking up my slack on some of these issues.  It's encouraging that there are some folks taking their time to correct my occasional goofs.  By doing so it helps me get closer to the truth of Dealey Plaza and what happened there.  And, that is more important then any bruised feelings over goofs.  Thanks again.

[Tony Krome]

Just now, John Butler said:

Tony,

Sorry.  I don't agree.  The blowup makes the car look more like a hardtop.  I appreciate your good efforts in picking up my slack on some of these issues.  It's encouraging that there are some folks taking their time to correct my occasional goofs.  By doing so it helps me get closer to the truth of Dealey Plaza and what happened there.  And, that is more important then any bruised feelings over goofs.  Thanks again.

Best of luck!

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/14/2019 at 6:32 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

That at least fits some of the known facts, but it sounds kind of unlikely to me.  Can you really forget that kind of thing?  

 

Yes.  It's called memory repression:

 ....memories that have been unconsciously blocked due to the memory being associated with a high level of stress or trauma. (Source: Wikipedia)

Then there is denialism (i.e. "being in a state of denial"):

 

....in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. (Source: Wikipedia)

 

Quote

Mr. Ernest did write (and tell John A. during their phone interview) that Ms. Adams seemed “uneasy” about the whole Shelley and Lovelady business, but if she was really pressured into the false sighting, why wasn’t she also pressured into delaying her flight down the stairs?  That was the real problem, and that would have been a lot easier and cleaner than inventing the false sighting.

 

There were three witnesses whose corroborating testimonies would debunk the WC's story of Oswald running down the stairs. All that was needed to discredit ALL of them was to "prove" their timing was off, which they did by creating the false encounter with Shelley and Lovelady.

The Stroud document demonstrates just that. In my mind it says, Hey we have yet another problem witness, a Miss Garner... but don't worry! Vickie Adam's testimony (attached) takes care of that too!

 

 

 

 

Quote

This belated correction also doesn’t explain who the two white men were by the elevators and electric panels who were seen but unchallenged by Baker.  If they weren’t TSBD employees OK’d by Truly, why didn’t Baker challenge them?  Clearly, the WC attorneys didn’t want to know who they were because they didn’t ask Truly to ID them.

 

It seems to me that those two men could have been anybody who worked for the TSBD. I personally believe that the TSBD was a CIA front and that Truly was CIA. Those two white men could have been CIA employees too. Maybe Baker didn't ask Truly about them because they didn't appear to be fleeing.

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Jim Hargrove]

17 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

There were three witnesses whose corroborating testimonies would debunk the WC's story of Oswald running down the stairs. All that was needed to discredit ALL of them was to "prove" their timing was off, which they did by creating the false encounter with Shelley and Lovelady.

But there were at least four witnesses who could debunk Adams’ Shelley/Lovelady sighting, if it was false.  There is no doubt the WC desperately needed some subterfuge here, but I don’t see any advantage to them by inventing Adams’ encounter over just pushing back on the time.

Besides, we aren’t arguing over whether Shelley and Lovelady were at the back of the first floor soon after the hit; they admitted they were in what appears to be their own handwriting on Nov. 22, 1963. We are debating, at best, a time difference of just a few minutes.

Quote

It seems to me that those two men could have been anybody who worked for the TSBD. I personally believe that the TSBD was a CIA front and that Truly was CIA. Those two white men could have been CIA employees too. Maybe Baker didn't ask Truly about them because they didn't appear to be fleeing.It seems to me that those two men could have been anybody who worked for the TSBD. I personally believe that the TSBD was a CIA front and that Truly was CIA. Those two white men could have been CIA employees too. Maybe Baker didn't ask Truly about them because they didn't appear to be fleeing.

If memory serves, somebody said that there were very few TSBD employees inside the building at the time of the assassination.  I would think even fewer were at the BACK of the building, away from the excitement on Elm St.  Shelley’s office was just a few steps from the electrical panel.  He admitted, on Day One, that he was by the elevator (which is not far from the electrical panels), probably  because he knew he had been seen there.

I also think the TSBD and at least some of the people who worked for it had Intelligence connections, but the evidence is pretty thin.  Do you have stronger evidence?

Edited March 16, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Tony Krome]

Jim,

Do you have any indication that power to the elevators was disrupted prior to Baker's TSBD entry?

As far as I'm aware, the only freight elevator Truly could have called for was the WEST elevator as it was the push button one and it would have come down if the gates were closed. The EAST elevator was manually operated.

The first thing Truly would have done is depress the button, however, that action did not activate the elevator, so he yelled up the shaft assuming someone could close the gates.

If as you say the power was cut to the elevator, the indicator lights on the button panel would not have lit up as Truly pressed the buttons, so my question is, why would Truly yell up the shaft if he could see there was a power problem?