“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[John Butler]

Jim,

Maybe my phrasing of that wasn't the best.  But, that's what the FBI document essentially states.  "Running towards" is more accurate than "chased" but, essentially the same.  Sheriff's Office statement says one thing. (went back into the building after the shooting)  FBI statement changes that. (ran towards the presidential limousine and then returned to the building)  And, later the WC testimony changes again. (went to the Grassy Knoll and railroad yards rentered building from west side) 

It's the "immediately after" that bugs me.  Most folk take immediately or after in a looser sense of the definition and imply that there could be a time difference between and event and what follows afterwards.  I've been arguing this for a long time.

Hope this helps.

Edited April 15, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks, John,

As hard as it is to figure out who to trust in this case, I’ll take almost ANY organization over the FBI, which was clearly tasked with creating the cover-up.  The Bureau (in examples such as the Carcano reports) had a bad habit of giving earlier dates to documents written at later times.  I wouldn’t be surprised if this isn’t one of them, though the Shelley/Lovelday story changed even more by the time they testified.

[Tony Krome]

Towards the Presidential Car ...

[John Butler]

57 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks, John,

As hard as it is to figure out who to trust in this case, I’ll take almost ANY organization over the FBI, which was clearly tasked with creating the cover-up.  The Bureau (in examples such as the Carcano reports) had a bad habit of giving earlier dates to documents written at later times.  I wouldn’t be surprised if this isn’t one of them, though the Shelley/Lovelday story changed even more by the time they testified.

There is an increasing amount of time out of the building in each successive statement.  All of which nullifies Vickie Adams' statement of seeing them in the building within a minute of the assassination.  Adams, much later in time is said to deny this.  This gives rise to the notion that the WC interrogators added this to Adams' statement.  Which doesn't make any sense at all with changing Shelley and Lovelady's testimony over time.  It is another paradoxical situation recreated, in my opinion, to ensure no one is convicted on a assassination crime.

I really don't have much evidence for what I am going to say next.  It is an impression.  I think the cover-up story was not fully developed on the afternoon of the 22nd.  It was adjusted to meet the circumstances of placing an Oswald on the 6th floor as an assassin.  People like Bonnie Ray Williams were allowed to say they heard shooting when the limo turns onto Houston Street.  Marie Muchmore says about the same.  Things changed by the evening to the 22nd and the cover-up story had changed.  Truly / Baker are an example.  Baker says one thing that evening but changes to what Truly says later.

This is the reason in going over witness statements I preferred first day statements to later.  People like Lovelady and Williams changed their stories to confirm to the Lone Gunman theory of the WC.  The Sheriff Office statements are perhaps better than the FBI statements but, neither are trustworthy.  Each has to be dealt with skeptically.

About the only benefit of the doubt is that these FBI 302s were summaries and things may have been left out to do a one pager or two at most.

Edited April 15, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

Tony,

As we discussed last Feb. when you showed this same clip as above, I’m not at all convinced that is Shelley and Lovelady in your circled detail.  One man seems to be just passing the other.   In the 3/18/64 FBI report, remarkably different from his 11/22/63 DPD affidavit, Shelley told the FBI, "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

Where are the police in the frames above?  You can see well ahead of the two circled men and well behind them.  These two unidentified men do not appear to be accompanying any police officers.

Why do both Lovelady and Shelley add more and more time to their return to the TSBD as the weeks and months after the assassination went by?

John,

If it is true that the Shelley/Lovelady sighting was added by the WC to David Belin’s questioning of Ms. Adams, then the questions asked during the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady just a couple of hours later by Joseph Ball also had to be altered.  As just one example of many:

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 
Mr. BALL - You don't. 
Mr. SHELLEY – No.

If Adams’ sighting of Shelley and Lovelady was added later to her testimony, how is it that Joseph Ball asked about it to other witnesses on the very same day Adams testified?

[Paul Jolliffe]

Re-reading Victoria Adams' testimony makes me wonder which DPD "officer"  she encountered out in the parking lot after she exited the back of the TSBD and why that particular officer was not later called by the WC.

After all, such an officer could (theoretically) testify that his encounter with Miss Adams occurred say, five minutes after the shots and therefore effectively discredit the timeline for Miss Adams. (Which we know is precisely what the WC wanted.) Yet the WC took no testimony (that I am aware of, anyway) from any officer about an encounter with Adams in the lot near the tracks on the west side of the TSBD despite their strong incentive to do so.

At that moment of the Adams encounter, this "officer" apparently believed that either

1. The parking lot was a (potential) crime scene and therefore no witnesses should be tramping around in it, or

2. Witnesses just might see something they were not supposed to see (say, a vehicle leaving the lot, men with suits or walkie-talkies in the lot, or worst of all, an actual shooter with a rifle, for example) and therefore the "officer" was protecting the conspirators.

The fact that the WC did not clear this up for us does not inspire confidence in the official version.

Who was the "officer" who confronted Victoria Adams in the parking lot and why didn't the WC identify that officer and take specific testimony from him about the timing of the encounter with Adams?

DPD officer Joe Marshall Smith's encounter with an unidentified woman can't be Victoria Adams because Smith quotes the woman as saying the same thing that Gloria Calvary told Shelley and Lovelady: "they are shooting the president from the bushes". Adams, of course, had no such knowledge and wanted to find out what happened. Therefore, Adams did not confront J.M. Smith.

(By the way, who were the "two other officers" who were already up on the railroad tracks on the overpass as Joe Marshall Smith arrived into the parking lot to check around?)

If DPD officer Edgar L. Smith encountered Victoria Adams, then the timing isn't right - Smith's description of his own actions would seem to prevent him from getting to the railroad tracks before Adams. Also, he said nothing about either Victoria Adams specifically or an urgent need generally to clear the lot - instead he testified to the opposite: "well, I don't know who they was checking because there was so much milling around." 

Again, thanks to the Warren Commission's incompetence, we can't say for certain who spoke to her and when. And the possibility that she met an impostor cop, covering for the conspirators, remains open.

 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Tony,

As we discussed last Feb. when you showed this same clip as above, I’m not at all convinced that is Shelley and Lovelady in your circled detail.  One man seems to be just passing the other.   In the 3/18/64 FBI report, remarkably different from his 11/22/63 DPD affidavit, Shelley told the FBI, "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later."

Where are the police in the frames above?  You can see well ahead of the two circled men and well behind them.  These two unidentified men do not appear to be accompanying any police officers.

Why do both Lovelady and Shelley add more and more time to their return to the TSBD as the weeks and months after the assassination went by?

John,

If it is true that the Shelley/Lovelady sighting was added by the WC to David Belin’s questioning of Ms. Adams, then the questions asked during the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady just a couple of hours later by Joseph Ball also had to be altered.  As just one example of many:

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 
Mr. BALL - You don't. 
Mr. SHELLEY – No.

If Adams’ sighting of Shelley and Lovelady was added later to her testimony, how is it that Joseph Ball asked about it to other witnesses on the very same day Adams testified?

If statements can be believed Shelley and Lovelady were in the railroad yards at the same time as Adams and Styles.  No one mentions seeing either in the railroad yards.  About the only agreement in their statements, I think I recall this, was that an officer told them to go back to the building.

[John Butler]

I am ambivalent about the alleged Shelley / Lovelady run towards the railroad yards.  That imagery is too vague to tell who that is.  They should have a policemen accompanying them according to their statements.  They don't.  Here is the ambivalent part.  They may have met a policeman at the SW corner of the TSBD. 

Here are vague images that suggest a Dallas Policeman, perhaps one of the Smiths.  This is at least 30 seconds after the shooting.   If someone has better video they can check this spot at this time in the Couch/Darnell film and see if that is truly a Dallas Policeman.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Re-reading Victoria Adams' testimony makes me wonder which DPD "officer"  she encountered out in the parking lot after she exited the back of the TSBD and why that particular officer was not later called by the WC.

After all, such an officer could (theoretically) testify that his encounter with Miss Adams occurred say, five minutes after the shots and therefore effectively discredit the timeline for Miss Adams. (Which we know is precisely what the WC wanted.) Yet the WC took no testimony (that I am aware of, anyway) from any officer about an encounter with Adams in the lot near the tracks on the west side of the TSBD despite their strong incentive to do so.

At that moment of the Adams encounter, this "officer" apparently believed that either

1. The parking lot was a (potential) crime scene and therefore no witnesses should be tramping around in it, or

2. Witnesses just might see something they were not supposed to see (say, a vehicle leaving the lot, men with suits or walkie-talkies in the lot, or worst of all, an actual shooter with a rifle, for example) and therefore the "officer" was protecting the conspirators.

The fact that the WC did not clear this up for us does not inspire confidence in the official version.

Who was the "officer" who confronted Victoria Adams in the parking lot and why didn't the WC identify that officer and take specific testimony from him about the timing of the encounter with Adams?

DPD officer Joe Marshall Smith's encounter with an unidentified woman can't be Victoria Adams because Smith quotes the woman as saying the same thing that Gloria Calvary told Shelley and Lovelady: "they are shooting the president from the bushes". Adams, of course, had no such knowledge and wanted to find out what happened. Therefore, Adams did not confront J.M. Smith.

(By the way, who were the "two other officers" who were already up on the railroad tracks on the overpass as Joe Marshall Smith arrived into the parking lot to check around?)

If DPD officer Edgar L. Smith encountered Victoria Adams, then the timing isn't right - Smith's description of his own actions would seem to prevent him from getting to the railroad tracks before Adams. Also, he said nothing about either Victoria Adams specifically or an urgent need generally to clear the lot - instead he testified to the opposite: "well, I don't know who they was checking because there was so much milling around." 

Again, thanks to the Warren Commission's incompetence, we can't say for certain who spoke to her and when. And the possibility that she met an impostor cop, covering for the conspirators, remains open.

 

Thanks Paul,

This is really good.  The officer Adams encountered in the RR yards could not have been Welcome Barnett.  I favor one of the Smiths or an unknown. 

However, J. M. Smith could have been in the RR yards prior to the arrival of Adams/Styles or Lovelady/Shelley.  It is just possible:

"Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point.
Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot."

Here again we need to intrepid the words immediately and after.  It is a continual problem in these Dealey Plaza statements.  I read this as very little time passed before Officer Smith was in the RR yards.

The notion that here was two other policeman there is interesting.

Here's a statement that may indicate more time has passed:

"Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there."

It is worthy of noting that a Deputy Sheriff and Secret Service man were already there.  Where was the Motorbike policeman, the one who parked on elm and went up the slope to the RR bridge?  His name escapes me at this time.  Chief Curry called for officers to get on the RR bridge and see what was going on there.  Motorbike cops were about all that was available unless some other policeman is identified.

Smith also said:

"Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir."

Now, were these two Dallas Officers there or was he referring to the Deputy and the SS Agent?  I tend to think he was talking about two other Dallas Police Officers.  He says "I know"  which could imply he knew who these officers were.  But, who?

And, that doesn't necessarily mean more time passed before Smith showed up at the RR yards.




 

Edited April 15, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

If statements can be believed Shelley and Lovelady were in the railroad yards at the same time as Adams and Styles.  No one mentions seeing either in the railroad yards.  About the only agreement in their statements, I think I recall this, was that an officer told them to go back to the building.

John,

You are almost correct: Lovelady testified that "We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building." ("we said"? or "they said"? I wonder if the Warren Commission "fixed" this bit of testimony.)

At the very least Lovelady is tacitly implying that the police in the rail yard were shooing people out of the parking lot and back into the TSBD. (Except that we know that neither Joe Marshall Smith nor Edgar L. Smith were doing that, and they were two of the first officers on the scene. So who was it?) Lovelady's testimony tends to support Victoria Adams claim she was confronted by a cop right around there who wouldn't let her go any farther.

Also note that Lovelady would seem to be implying here that he and Shelley were back inside the TSBD awfully quickly - within a minute or so of the shots. (Could they have made it in time to be near the back stairs by the time Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended? It doesn't seem very likely, yet it is possible, I suppose.)

Shelley did not testify about a direct confrontation with a cop, but when questioned by Ball:

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

We know that Joe Marshall Smith testified to checking cars quickly. Did Lovelady and Shelley witness J. M. Smith at that moment? How long was "a little while"? Did "them" mean multiple cops were "searching" cars within a minute or two of the shots? That's what Joe Marshall Smith seemed to be saying in his testimony. 

Nothing in the testimony of Joe Marshall Smith, Edgar L. Smith, Billy Nolan Lovelady, or William H. Shelley precludes the possibility/probability that there were unidentified "officers" in the parking lot and up on the rail overpass in a very short time after the shots. Were these all legitimate law enforcement officers?

Since the Warren Commission did not bother to find out, I think we can guess the answer.

(Also, as a "Prayerman" aside, note that Joseph Ball quickly cut off Lovelady just as Lovelady was about to tell who was standing "right behind" him on the steps of the TSBD: 

Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - Who was with you? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me ( . . . Yes? Who, Billy? Who was standing "right behind" you? Gosh, I hope Joseph Ball doesn't interrupt the answer!)
Mr. BALL - What was that last name? (Darn! Ball did interrupt the witness and did prevent the answer! What a surprise!)
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.") 😉

 

 

[John Butler]

30 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

You are almost correct: Lovelady testified that "We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building." ("we said"? or "they said"? I wonder if the Warren Commission "fixed" this bit of testimony.)

At the very least Lovelady is tacitly implying that the police in the rail yard were shooing people out of the parking lot and back into the TSBD. (Except that we know that neither Joe Marshall Smith nor Edgar L. Smith were doing that, and they were two of the first officers on the scene. So who was it?) Lovelady's testimony tends to support Victoria Adams claim she was confronted by a cop right around there who wouldn't let her go any farther.

Also note that Lovelady would seem to be implying here that he and Shelley were back inside the TSBD awfully quickly - within a minute or so of the shots. (Could they have made it in time to be near the back stairs by the time Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended? It doesn't seem very likely, yet it is possible, I suppose.)

Shelley did not testify about a direct confrontation with a cop, but when questioned by Ball:

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

We know that Joe Marshall Smith testified to checking cars quickly. Did Lovelady and Shelley witness J. M. Smith at that moment? How long was "a little while"? Did "them" mean multiple cops were "searching" cars within a minute or two of the shots? That's what Joe Marshall Smith seemed to be saying in his testimony. 

Nothing in the testimony of Joe Marshall Smith, Edgar L. Smith, Billy Nolan Lovelady, or William H. Shelley precludes the possibility/probability that there were unidentified "officers" in the parking lot and up on the rail overpass in a very short time after the shots. Were these all legitimate law enforcement officers?

Since the Warren Commission did not bother to find out, I think we can guess the answer.

(Also, as a "Prayerman" aside, note that Joseph Ball quickly cut off Lovelady just as Lovelady was about to tell who was standing "right behind" him on the steps of the TSBD: 

Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - Who was with you? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me ( . . . Yes? Who, Billy? Who was standing "right behind" you? Gosh, I hope Joseph Ball doesn't interrupt the answer!)
Mr. BALL - What was that last name? (Darn! Ball did interrupt the witness and did prevent the answer! What a surprise!)
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.") 😉

 

 

Good summary. 

The Secret Service Agent was a bad guy.  One of the assassins or helpers.  There were supposedly no SS Agents in Dealey Plaza.

J. M. Smith says there were two other officers there.  I don't think he was talking about the Deputy or the SS Agent.

"Also note that Lovelady would seem to be implying here that he and Shelley were back inside the TSBD awfully quickly - within a minute or so of the shots. (Could they have made it in time to be near the back stairs by the time Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended? It doesn't seem very likely, yet it is possible, I suppose.)"

I don't think it was possible for them to be back in the building within a minute by their WC testimony.  Earlier testimony says yes they returned into the building and could be there to meet Adams within a minute.  (Sheriff Office Statement).  A longer period of time is in the FBI statement.  I don't think they could have been back in the building in less than a minute.  Definitely not when they said they went into the RR yards in their WC statements.

"Mr. Ball. Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad

tracks?

 

Mr. Lovelady. Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

 

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

 

Mr. Lovelady. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr.

 

Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building."

 

Edited April 15, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Jim's notion that there is an increasing period of time for Shelley and Lovelady to be out of the TSBD is evident in their statements.  Vickie said on 11-24-63 she was out of the building for 4 or 5 minutes.  That is plenty enough time to see Lovelady and Shelley in the RR yards if they were there. 

What I can't square is Vickie Adams saying she spoke to Shelley and Lovelady within a minute of the shooting.  Then, years later saying this was not the truth.  Her statement of 2-17-64 to the Dallas Policeman Jim Leavelle is where the idea that She spoke to Shelley and a fellow named Bill came from.  It's possible that the Dallas Police / Leavelle are responsible for this statement and they were not really aware of the total cover-up plan and this is the reason that the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley had to be adjusted by April by the WC Lawyers.

On the way back into the building she says that she spoke to ?Molina? that name was hard to read.  She also spoke to Avery Davis.

What is interesting is she said when she returned to the building that the passenger elevator power was still off and the freight elevator power was still off.

If she really spent 4 or 5 minutes outside the building then that times how long the power was off in the building.  That is plenty of time for someone to come out of the basement and in the dark TSBD not be noticed going anywhere.

Not much is said elsewhere on how long the power was off?

[Jim Hargrove]

Some people believe that the Warren Commission altered Vickie Adams’ testimony to fabricate her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor by the rear staircase and freight elevators.  This was done, these researchers believe, so it would appear that she arrived on the first floor later than she estimated, giving time for “Lee Harvey Oswald” to run down the stairs unseen and unheard.  This is not an unreasonable argument, especially after Barry Ernest interviewed Vickie Adams decades later and she denied seeing the two men.

John A. and I have argued that if her Shelley/Lovelady encounter was added later to her testimony by the WC, it is very odd that Joseph Ball questioned both men about seeing her on the first floor, and that these questions were asked just a couple of hours after Adams’ testimony.  There is another problem with the altered testimony theory.

If Warren Commission attorneys invented her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady to change the timeline of her climb down the stairs, why didn’t they change her statement that it took her “I would say no longer than a minute at the most” to run from the fourth floor window to the first floor via the back staircase.  If the WC attorneys were inventing this whole encounter,  why on earth wouldn’t they alter her “no longer than a minute” estimate in the first place?  That was their whole problem right there.  It doesn’t make sense.

Below are relevant excerpts of Ms. Adams’ testimony.  Emphasis added by me:

Miss ADAMS - And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract men's attention. Then we heard---then we were obstructed from the view.
Mr. BELIN - By what?
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS - While I was on the way out.
Mr. BELIN - Was anyone going along with you?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; Sandra Styles.

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway? 
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. 
Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct? 
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - Correct.
Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them? 
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Definitely.
Mr. BELIN - Less than 30 seconds?
Miss ADAMS – Yes.

Are we to believe that all the above references, as well as the direct questions posed to Shelley and Lovelady a couple of hours later, were fabricated in order to impeach Ms. Adams' time estimate (below)?  Why not just change the time?  Why invent all the other stuff?

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - Correct.
Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them? 
Miss ADAMS - Yes.

[John Butler]

Vickie Adams- Shelley and Lovelady

1. On 11-24-63 in an FBI summary there is no mention of meeting or seeing Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

2. On 2-17-64 Vickie Adams told Detective Leavelle that before she left the building she saw but did not speak to the two employees, Mr. Shelley and an employee named Bill.

3. On 3-3-64 FBI statement there is no mention of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

4. On 3-23-64 in another statement to the FBI there is no mention of Shelley and Lovelady.  This particular document from Mary Ferrell can’t be trusted because it was re-typed by a later word processor.

5. On 6-2-64 there was a letter from General Counsel Lee Rankin showing changes made to her transcript at the WC.  And, that Dorothy Garner said after Adams went down the stair steps she saw Mr. Truly and a policeman come up.

On April 7, 1964 Adams said she saw and talked to Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady as she left the building.  They did not respond to her question.

I don’t know but there might be a good chance that the FBI was editing what she was saying and removing what they thought wasn’t according to the plan.  In the 3 FBI statements there is no mention of Shelley and Lovelady.  But, there is in non-FBI sources.

Then there is her denial to Barry Ernest.  In all of this which is valid or not?

The FBI was editing her statements as indicated in the 3-23-64 statement of where the presidential limousine was when shooting occurred.  And, someone re-typed the 3-23-64 FBI statement with a later word processor and presents this as the true commission exhibit.

This is a confused mess in which one can go in several different directions.  What is best here?  Can this Ernest character be trusted?  Wasn't his book written after Vickie's death in 2007?  So, what she said in it is up to Ernest not Adams?

After looking at this mess I am going to tentatively believe that Vickie Adams did see Shelley and Lovelady as she left the building.  Based primarily on this Top Secret portion of her transcript.  Why else do this?

Baker's information about two men on the first floor was not developed by the Sheriff's Office, Dallas Police, FBI, and would not have been developed by any WC Lawyer.  The question was asked Senator John Sherman Cooper from Ky .

Marion Baker and two men

1. 1-22-63- Sheriff’s Office- States he saw people standing around and asked for where the elevator was.  Does not mention 2 men on the first floor.

2. 11-26-63- FBI statement- Baker does not mention 2 men on the first floor.

3. 11-29-63- FBI statement- Baker does not mention 2 men on the first floor.

4. 3-25-64- Warren Commission- Baker initially didn’t say anything about two men on the first floor.  But, later this is what was said-                                                    “SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.  Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.”

5. 9-23-64- FBI statement- says pretty much what he said in earlier FBI statements.

The information about two men on the first floor was not developed by the Sheriff's Office, the Dallas Police, the FBI, or any WC lawyer. As stated above it was developed by Senator John Sherman Cooper asking the question.  Is that relevant?  I think so.  

Edited April 16, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

39 minutes ago, John Butler said:

This is a confused mess in which one can go in several different directions.  What is best here?  Can this Ernest character be trusted?  Wasn't his book written after Vickie's death in 2007?  So, what she said in it is up to Ernest not Adams?

It sure is a mess.  Assuming your document summary above is accurate, the only thing left out of this discussion recently is Baker’s testimony that he, moving with Truly, encountered two unknown white men at the back of the first floor. Baker said one of the men standing was standing near the stairs, the other about 20-30 feet away, which should be near the electrical panels.

Baker’s encounter with the two white men must have been within seconds of Vickie Adams’ alleged encounter.  Who else could those two men be?  Baker would have had no reason to be able to identify two TSBD employees, but Truly sure as heck would have known them.  Why on earth didn’t the WC ask Truly who the two men were?

Call me a cynic, but I’m beginning to think the WC really wasn’t a very good investigation.

John A. told me recently that Barry Ernest has put up interviews on YouTube with both Adams and Sandra Styles.  John said that in the Adams interview, she denies the Shelley/Lovelady encounter but, although Mr. Ernest said Styles also denied the encounter, she didn’t do so in the YouTube recording.  The questions about this may just never end.

My gut feeling is that the Shelley/Lovelady encounter did happen, and Adams was browbeaten over the decades to deny it.