MWN Episode 113 – John Potash on the CIA and Its Use of Drugs Against Musicians and Activists

[Rob Couteau]

Paul, do you remember this rather shady figure from "Acid Dreams": Ronald Stark. As it says in the caption to this photo from the book, he manufactured 50 million hits of LSD. There is a chapter that describes how he often distributed it for free at rock concerts, supposedly testing new variations of the drug. I thought he was one of the most intriguing characters in this whole LSD/intelligence world. Now, given all the stuff that is coming out about Gladio and Permindex, I think this quote is even more intriguing: After he relocated to Europe, Stark was arrested for his involvement with several terrorist organizations. "The Italian government subsequently charged Stark with 'armed banditry' for his role in aiding and abetting terrorist activities. But he never stood trial on these charges. True to form, Stark dropped out of sight shortly after he was released from prison in April 1979 on orders from Judge Giorgio Floridia in Bologna. The judge's decision was extraordinary: he released Stark because of 'an impressive series of scrupulously enumerated proofs' that Stark was actually a CIA agent. 'Many circumstances suggest that from 1960 onwards Stark belonged to the American secret services,' Floridia stated." From "Acid Dreams," Martin A. Lee & Bruce Shlain, pg. 281 (online source).

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Rob Couteau

[Kirk Gallaway]

Rob said: everyone is different and different psychological makeups react differently.

Agreed; Some of it's your age, and your time of inception, and where you were. Actually in shear numbers the protests peaked out after 1968. Though that's always depicted as a seminal year. because of the riots.

Paul, Sounds like you were in close proximity to Timothy Leary.  Than what did stop the war?

I don't think that was top down decision at all. No one could get elected being a hawk on the Viet Nam war after 1969. I think the chief reason the war ended was not because parents were losing their children, because I think just as in WW1 and WW2, we had really established a long generational history of losing children, and that could have easily continued. It was the fact the parents could now  longer stand to both lose their children but now suffer the alienation of their children and the dividing of the nation. They were also getting messages through the media that the war was futile.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Kirk Gallaway

[Cliff Varnell]

10 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Potash premise: The CIA brought LSD into the anti war movement and stopped it cold. It's a total crock!

Total crock.

In 1971, the People Didn’t Just March on Washington — They Shut It Down

https://longreads.com/2017/01/20/in-1971-the-people-didnt-just-march-on-washington-they-shut-it-down/

[Paul Brancato]

Cliff - long but interesting article. The concept of ‘affinity groups’ Is something that we are apparently stuck with now. It can be taken to insane extremes. From an organizing point of view I can understand seeking like minds in a struggle. But without a Unity message all groups can agree on and prioritize it becomes an exploitable weakness. As small examples, LGBTQ friends say they won’t ever support Tulsi Gabbard, despite her pristine voting record on human rights. I have relatives who only care about one issue - right to life. Gosh I hate that term. Black Lives Matter chose an example of  Bernie Sanders. Etc. - Divide and Conquor. 

Martin Luther King was killed, in my opinion, because he expanded his message to include opposition to the War and planned a permanent occupation of DC to seek economic Justice. Resistance is not futile, but any protest violence is counterproductive. Would you agree that is a main point of the article? 

[Paul Brancato]

19 hours ago, Rob Couteau said:

Paul, do you remember this rather shady figure from "Acid Dreams": Ronald Stark. As it says in the caption to this photo from the book, he manufactured 50 million hits of LSD. There is a chapter that describes how he often distributed it for free at rock concerts, supposedly testing new variations of the drug. I thought he was one of the most intriguing characters in this whole LSD/intelligence world. Now, given all the stuff that is coming out about Gladio and Permindex, I think this quote is even more intriguing: After he relocated to Europe, Stark was arrested for his involvement with several terrorist organizations. "The Italian government subsequently charged Stark with 'armed banditry' for his role in aiding and abetting terrorist activities. But he never stood trial on these charges. True to form, Stark dropped out of sight shortly after he was released from prison in April 1979 on orders from Judge Giorgio Floridia in Bologna. The judge's decision was extraordinary: he released Stark because of 'an impressive series of scrupulously enumerated proofs' that Stark was actually a CIA agent. 'Many circumstances suggest that from 1960 onwards Stark belonged to the American secret services,' Floridia stated." From "Acid Dreams," Martin A. Lee & Bruce Shlain, pg. 281 (online source).

I remember Stark from the book but not his later prosecution in Italy. I’ll have to dig out my copy and refresh my memory. You are making an interesting point when you ask questions about Gladio and Permindex. In my view all terrorism is suspect, including Isis. I always ask ‘qui bono’?

[Cliff Varnell]

5 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Cliff - long but interesting article. The concept of ‘affinity groups’ Is something that we are apparently stuck with now. It can be taken to insane extremes. From an organizing point of view I can understand seeking like minds in a struggle. But without a Unity message all groups can agree on and prioritize it becomes an exploitable weakness. As small examples, LGBTQ friends say they won’t ever support Tulsi Gabbard, despite her pristine voting record on human rights. I have relatives who only care about one issue - right to life. Gosh I hate that term. Black Lives Matter chose an example of  Bernie Sanders. Etc. - Divide and Conquor. 

Martin Luther King was killed, in my opinion, because he expanded his message to include opposition to the War and planned a permanent occupation of DC to seek economic Justice. Resistance is not futile, but any protest violence is counterproductive. Would you agree that is a main point of the article? 

Absolutely.  As well as the problems with top down mass protest movements where all white guys called the shots.

Nothing about the CIA luring people into acid dens to destroy their minds.

[Cliff Varnell]

On 2/28/2019 at 11:54 AM, Anthony Thorne said:

I’ve read Potash’s book, DRUGS AS WEAPONS AGAINST US, which is very good. A common theme of the book is anti-war activists during the Vietnam war era being targeted by CIA-linked folk who would turn up at gatherings with free drugs suggesting everyone get stoned.

In the podcast he goes furthur than that (misspelling intended nyuck nyuck).

Potash claims Leary lured members of the Congress of Racial Equality up to his Milbrook party pad for the express purpose of damaging their minds.

He said Ken Kesey was manipulated -- in ways not explained, by people not identified -- into luring activists to his Acid Tests for the express purpose of damaging their minds.-

Does he make an actual fact based argument for this in his book?

On 2/28/2019 at 11:54 AM, Anthony Thorne said:

Potash runs through dozens of accounts that remind the reader how great it was for the authorities if anti-war demonstrators tuned out, dropped out and stopped protesting the war machine.

"Drop out" never meant "be apathetic" in my book.  I always took that to mean Resist!

[Cliff Varnell]

On 2/28/2019 at 8:47 AM, Douglas Caddy said:

MWN Episode 113 – John Potash on the CIA and Its Use of Drugs Against Musicians and Activists

https://midnightwriternews.com/mwn-episode-113-john-potash-on-the-cia-and-its-use-of-drugs-against-musician-and-activists/?fbclid=IwAR1xPeBgUUGqA_1FTc5zJWekouOHzGwLrnOFbuym8ZNPZBqrjiCoVtGozRM

I turned on, tuned in and dropped out at the 23:45 mark because Potash pissed me off.

Felt like this a little bit:

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

Non-political?

Naw...

RESIST!, bitchez...

Who can take the sugar from a sack?

CIA!

Pour in LSD and put it back?

CIA!

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[Anthony Thorne]

Potash’s book struck me as detailed, fact based and well-sourced when I read it a year or so ago. It had footnotes and citations and felt like it belonged in the upper tier of Trine Day titles, one of their good ones rather than a dopey moneymaker. That said, I read a lot of it wide-eyed as many of the details in the volume are startling. I don’t unfortunately - sadly - have time to go back beyond that and spend a morning fleshing out an answer to your query - that big John Connally ebook that was posted a week or two back is tapping its feet and I also have a ridiculous haul of (US) westerns and film noirs I urgently want to watch. Plus also less fun stuff than that.

The Kindle version wasn’t too expensive. I’d suggest checking the ebook rather than print version out if you’re curious. That said, if you find Potash’s stuff truly not your cup of tea there’s really no shame or dishonour in skipping it with a shrug and moving on to some other subtopic that feels more worthwhile to research. 

If you do eventually check out Potash’s book, the Courtney Love material is jaw dropping. She’s like the rock version of David Ferrie, linked (not just from Cobain’s death) to one bizarre and ominous incident after another.

[Cliff Varnell]

4 minutes ago, Anthony Thorne said:

Potash’s book struck me as detailed, fact based and well-sourced when I read it a year or so ago. It had footnotes and citations and felt like it belonged in the upper tier of Trine Day titles, one of their good ones rather than a dopey moneymaker. That said, I read a lot of it wide-eyed as many of the details in the volume are startling. I don’t unfortunately - sadly - have time to go back beyond that and spend a morning fleshing out an answer to your query - that big John Connally ebook that was posted a week or two back is tapping its feet and I also have a ridiculous haul of (US) westerns and film noirs I urgently want to watch. Plus also less fun stuff than that.

The Kindle version wasn’t too expensive. I’d suggest checking the ebook rather than print version out if you’re curious. That said, if you find Potash’s stuff truly not your cup of tea there’s really no shame or dishonour in skipping it with a shrug and moving on to some other subtopic that feels more worthwhile to research. 

If you do eventually check out Potash’s book, the Courtney Love material is jaw dropping. She’s like the rock version of David Ferrie, linked (not just from Cobain’s death) to one bizarre and ominous incident after another.

That subject died with me when I saw a Courtney-did-it documentary seriously quote El Duce of the Mentors saying -- "Courtney offered me 50 grand to whack Kurt."

Yeah, right.

Anybody who knew El Duce (he stayed at my pad once) wouldn't offer him more than $5 to go to the corner to get beer.

And they suggested his death was mysterious!  El Duce passed out on some railroad tracks because he was a dedicated alcoholic.

As far as Potash goes, I'm done with him 'til I'm given a reason to give a shed.  It's a little like Dave McGowan's nonsense about how a CIA-controlled Laurel Canyon was the birthplace of the counter-culture.

Laurel Canyon was the birthplace of MOR "adult rock."

San Francisco was the birthplace of the counter-culture. 

If Potash doesn't have anything going more than guilt by association to charge Ken Kesey with intentionally dosing unsuspecting activists -- I give him a pass.

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

It's not a deep state narrative foisted on the public and succeeding generations that they were so successful in  infiltrating the anti war movement with psychedelic drugs, that they destroyed it. They left that to their opponents, and because the narrative has been taken so far away from the what I would more broadly call  "the resistance",  it plays very well into this pathology of victimization that I see so prevalent and is in some cases promulgated by certain prolific posters on this forum.

.

Could the Vietnam War have gone on longer than Afghanistan except with a waste treatment plant of blood? The answer is yes!  And there's no narrative as to why that didn't happen other than the resistance to the war itself in everyday life. There's the outward resistance in terms of demonstrations and protests and then there's the everyday division among people  and within families such as my own and the families of all my friends around me.

 

Now Cliff mentions Leary with Congress, the Ken Kesey story. I didn't get that far. I've only touched upon one or two of these anecdotal stories that I heard from Potash in this interview that I thought were BS,  but it doesn't seem further reading is worthwhile for me to pursue.

 

The 60's are very complicated. The reactions to drugs are as varied as people themselves, but there was a lot more fomenting than just drugs and the drug culture. I'm sure there are a number of truths in  these books,  But now, many decades later, whatever present day deep state you think there is, they must be very encouraged that they didn't have to raise a glove and their lightning-out-of-a-bottle bungle morphed into another tale of deep state victimization.  Game- Set -Match!. Hey that's market forces, for ya'!

Edited March 3, 2019 by Kirk Gallaway

[Jeff Carter]

While at Harvard, Leary established programs working with psychedelics and incarcerated repeat offenders, and would claim dramatic advances against recidivism. He and Albert were drummed out of Harvard by the conservative establishment opposed to such research. Jonas Mekas made a short film at Millbrook, featuring a soundtrack consisting of an interview with the local police chief who discussed a very determined effort to find any means to arrest and disrupt activity there. These people were “different” and were seriously disliked and mistrusted.I don’t know exactly what to make of Leary’s CIA connections, but the intentions seem opposing: Leary was actually trying to create positive change via psychedelics, while the CIA was seeking to use them for nefarious purpose. Academic research into psychedelics was effectively criminalized by the late 1960s, and remained so for about four decades. CIA sponsored esearch was permitted to continue in prison psychiatric hospitals, which spawned figures such as Manson and Donald DeFreeze. This is covered in Peter Levenda’s excellent Sinister Forces trilogy.

There’s a good book called “Who Spoke Up? American Protest Against the War In Vietnam 1963-1975” (Zaroulis/Sullivan) which casts a wider net on protest activity then most approaches. The authors situate some of the earliest organized opposition in long-standing pacifist, religious, and civil rights organizations, with an emphasis on a nascent women’s movement, which presented a common principled opposition (war is wrong). The counterculture wasn’t necessarily spawned by the war and drugs, the counterculture was already happening anyway - in both New York City and San Francisco. To the extent that the CIA tried to intervene, such effort was a failure - other than criminalizing academic research into psychedelics, which prevented and delayed the dissemination and development of positive breakthroughs in the human sciences for four decades.

[Anthony Thorne]

The Courtney Love stuff in the book has little if anything to do with Cobain’s death. 

And Potash’s stuff is very different from McGowan’s. I don’t care for the latter’s writing.

If you’re done with Potash, fine. Stop asking me questions about him.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Anthony Thorne said:

The Courtney Love stuff in the book has little if anything to do with Cobain’s death. 

And Potash’s stuff is very different from McGowan’s. I don’t care for the latter’s writing.

If you’re done with Potash, fine. Stop asking me questions about him.

I did stop...why so defensive?