Was Bill Shelley Oswald's CIA minder in the TSBD? Was he also at the New Orleans Trade Mart?

[Gene Kelly]

54 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I'm sure many other researchers have done comprehensive studies of the combined timelines stated by almost all the witnesses who saw Oswald directly from just before 12:pm that day until after the shooting.

I have just read about 6 of those accounts via the JFK Witness Page internet site which shows their Warren Commission testimony and affidavits taken by others like the Dallas Police, the FBI, etc.

There are several timeline contradictions in the Oswald sighting accounts.

However, there are more timelines that match.

When Shelley and Arce took the elevator down from the 6th floor down to the second floor to have lunch, they gave a general timeline of 5 minutes before 12:pm.

Danny Arce said they encountered Oswald who told them to go on. Oswald was on the 6th or 5th floor. Arce wasn't sure about the exact floor.

Shelley said he went to his office to eat his lunch and spent 10 minutes there.

He then went down to the first floor to the lobby and then eventually went out the front door to the outside steps to watch JFK drive by.

Shelley said he saw Oswald using the first floor lobby wall mounted telephone when he ( Shelley) was there.

So, this was around 10 to 15 minutes after 12:pm?

Before I state all the other sightings of Oswald from 11:55 am to 12:10 or 12:15 in the lobby, let me just propose what a remarkable feat it must have been for Oswald to be running back and forth from the 6th floor to the first floor lobby while setting up his perch to do JFK at 12:30 pm.

And don't forget famous news journalist Robert MacNeil who stated Oswald directed him to a first floor phone just minutes after the shooting.

 

Joe

Robert MacNeil, an NBC reporter accompanying the five-city tour of Texas, ended up in the TSBD (looking for a pay phone) and saw a man using the phone who was (imho) most likely Shelley. In an affidavit made out that same afternoon, Shelley stated:

"I went back into the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened."

Shelley’s timeline following the shooting - compiled from various sources including his later Warren Commission testimony - is unfortunately inconsistent, leaving questions about where he actually was. A few minutes after MacNeil saw what he described as "three calm men" in the lobby of the TSBD, and after he made his own phone call to NBC News, Oswald apparently left the building.  I don't believe that MacNeil was ever able to identify Oswald as the person who directed him to the pay phone.  

I went immediately into the clear space on the ground floor and asked where there was a phone. There were, as I recall, three men there, all I think in shirt sleeves. What, on recollection, strikes me as possibly significant is that all three seemed to be exceedingly calm and relaxed, compared to the pandemonium which existed right outside their front door. I did not pay attention to this at the time. I asked the first man I saw—a man who was telephoning from a pillar in the middle of the room—where I could call from. He directed me to another man nearer the door, who pointed to an office. When I got to the phone, two of the lines were lit up. I made my call and left. …I was in too much of a hurry to remember what the three men looked like. But their manner was very relaxed. (Ref: FBI report of Oswald at the police station, Warren Report, p. 619).

Gene

 

 

[Alan Ford]

7 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Alan

I beleive that William Weston's thesis about Shelley is taken from reports filed by  FBI agents James Hosty and James Bookhout, who attended Captain Fritz’s first interview with Oswald. They wrote a joint report on 23 November, from notes taken on the 22nd. Hosty’s and Bookhout’s joint account of the first–day interview is the earliest surviving account of Oswald’s alibi. It implies this sequence of actions:

• At “approximately noon” Oswald ate his lunch in the domino room on the first floor.
• He then went up to the second floor, where he bought a Coke from the vending machine in the lunchroom.
• Finally, he went downstairs and was on the first floor when JFK came past.

Mr. Kelly, an earlier account came to light in 2019. Agent James Hosty's draft report on that first interrogation. It exposes just how that Bookhout/Hosty join report misdirected the reader as to what Mr. Oswald really said-----------------

Regarding Mr. Shelley, there is no doubt Mr. Oswald did mention him. And I believe Mr. Shelley may have been the person who (under instruction) told Mr. Oswald to go to the Texas Theatre to meet a contact.

However, we have very good reason to believe that the man who cleared Mr. Oswald at the door was Mr. Truly, and that it happened no earlier than 12:40 p.m.

According to Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes, Mr. Oswald in custody recalled being stopped at the front door ("The front entrance to the first floor" [Mr. Holmes]) by an officer, who only let him pass when he was cleared as an employee by his superintendent of the place. The superintendent of the place was Mr Roy Truly.

From Asst. Chief Charles Batchelor's report on the activities of Deputy Chief of Police George L. Lumpkin:

How on earth did Mr Oswald know the precise system that had been put in place several minutes after the shooting-----i.e. Mr Truly at the front door vouching for employees to a police officer? Because he had personally experienced it: Officer Kaminski was the officer who, having checked with Mr. Truly, allowed Mr. Oswald to step outside.

Mr. Billy Lovelady saw this front-door incident, and told Mr. James Jarman all about it. From Mr. Jarman's HSCA interview:

Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see... Oswald was coming out the door and [Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policemen that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

The Martin film shows that precise system in operation (Mr. Truly is standing behind the glass [right of screen]).
Mr. Lovelady is standing on the steps.
All as per Mr. Jarman's account.
Here, a black man is being ushered through the door. Had Mr. Martin also filmed a little before or after this moment, we would have footage of the scene as described by Mr. Lovelady to Mr. Jarman---------------Mr. Oswald being let out the front door:

NB! Mr. Oswald would have been given permission by Lt. Kaminski to step outside (as e.g. Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams here has). He was NOT given permission to leave the scene. But he did.

It's possible he spoke with Mr. Shelley after being cleared, going through the glass door, and coming off these front steps.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Gene Kelly]

2 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

Mr. Kelly, an earlier account came to light in 2019. Agent James Hosty's draft report on that first interrogation. It exposes just how that Bookhout/Hosty join report misdirected the reader as to what Mr. Oswald really said-----------------

Regarding Mr. Shelley, there is no doubt Mr. Oswald did mention him. And I believe Mr. Shelley may have been the person who (under instruction) told Mr. Oswald to go to the Texas Theatre to meet a contact.

However, we have very good reason to believe that the man who cleared Mr. Oswald at the door was Mr. Truly, and that it happened no earlier than 12:40 p.m.

According to Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes, Mr. Oswald in custody recalled being stopped at the front door ("The front entrance to the first floor" [Mr. Holmes]) by an officer, who only let him pass when he was cleared as an employee by his superintendent of the place. The superintendent of the place was Mr Roy Truly.

From Asst. Chief Charles Batchelor's report on the activities of Deputy Chief of Police George L. Lumpkin:

How on earth did Mr Oswald know the precise system that had been put in place several minutes after the shooting-----i.e. Mr Truly at the front door vouching for employees to a police officer? Because he had personally experienced it: Officer Kaminski was the officer who, having checked with Mr. Truly, allowed Mr. Oswald to step outside.

Mr. Billy Lovelady saw this front-door incident, and told Mr. James Jarman all about it. From Mr. Jarman's HSCA interview:

Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see... Oswald was coming out the door and [Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policemen that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

The Martin film shows that precise system in operation (Mr. Truly is standing behind the glass [right of screen]).
Mr. Lovelady is standing on the steps.
All as per Mr. Jarman's account.
Here, a black man is being ushered through the door here. Had Mr. Martin filmed a little before or after this moment, we would have footage of the scene as described by Mr. Lovelady to Mr. Jarman---------------Mr. Oswald being let out the front door:

NB! Mr. Oswald would have been given permission by Lt. Kaminski to step outside (as e.g. Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams here has). He was NOT given permission to leave the scene. But he did.

It's possible he spoke with Mr. Shelley after being cleared, going through the glass door, and coming off these front steps.

Thanks for the clarififcation and additonal detail Alan.  Very helpful.

The official Warren Commission account of Oswald’s activities have him leaving the Depository at 12:33 pm, just three minutes after the shooting (WR, p.156), implying some of Bookhout’s revised account may be inaccurate. But its clear that Oswald appears to have eaten his lunch before (not after) the assassination. Two of Oswald’s colleagues (Givens and Bonnie Ray Williams ) make it clear that Oswald ate his lunch before the shooting started. Other interview reports also confirm that Oswald was on the TSBD first floor when the President was shot.  

The lunchroom encounter, Vicki Adams' observations, and Prayerman front step debates also enter into this timeline, and there's obviously a lot of opinions in that regard.  But to me its clear that Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor, and that Shelley had to have a hand in his leaving the premises ... so he remains as a person of interest for me.

Gene

 

[Alan Ford]

27 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Thanks for the clarififcation and additonal detail Alan.  Very helpful.

The official Warren Commission account of Oswald’s activities have him leaving the Depository at 12:33 pm, just three minutes after the shooting (WR, p.156), implying some of Bookhout’s revised account may be inaccurate. But its clear that Oswald appears to have eaten his lunch before (not after) the assassination. Two of Oswald’s colleagues (Givens and Bonnie Ray Williams ) make it clear that Oswald ate his lunch before the shooting started. Other interview reports also confirm that Oswald was on the TSBD first floor when the President was shot.  

The lunchroom encounter, Vicki Adams' observations, and Prayerman front step debates also enter into this timeline, and there's obviously a lot of opinions in that regard.  But to me its clear that Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor, and that Shelley had to have a hand in his leaving the premises ... so he remains as a person of interest for me.

Gene

You're most welcome, Mr. Kelly.

Yes: as was deduced a good decade ago but not confirmed until 2019 with Mr. Bart Kamp's unearthing of the Hosty draft report, Mr. Oswald talked about a Coke-motivated visit to the second-floor lunchroom prior to the motorcade.

As for Mr. Oswald's being on the TSBD first floor when Pres. Kennedy was shot? We can indeed say that, but only if we use the words 'the first floor' in the extremely liberal way in which Bookhout/Hosty use it------------i.e. to include, should proof of the fact come to light, the front steps. Because Mr. Oswald was telling the truth when he told Capt. Fritz he "went outside to watch P. Parade". The front entrance is both outside and, in a certain sense, in (i.e. still part of) the building.

The fact that Mr. Oswald's claim was catastrophically true meant that it had to be suppressed/distorted beyond recognition in the officially published interrogation reports.

I believe Mr. Oswald was out on those steps for approx. 15 seconds only. And they were no ordinary 15 seconds. During them, the attention of every single person would have been on the motorcade----------and the loud bangs that eventuated.

Those who dismiss the possibility that Mr. Oswald was out front at this time, on the sole grounds that no one went on the record about having seen him there, are not so quick to dismiss the idea that he left by the front door several minutes after the assassination--------------despite the fact that no one went on the record about that either. Total double standards from Team Keep LHO Off Dem Steps!

I believe Mr. Shelley may have been the one who told Mr. Oswald to head for the Texas Theatre.

Why would Mr. Oswald have trusted him? Because--------------at least this is my strong conviction based on the evidence--------------they had been working on the same team. Not an assassination team, but a TSBD team helping to facilitate a White House-approved off-books false-flag incident involving missed shots fired from the sixth floor of the building. As soon as it was learned that Pres. Kennedy had actually been hit, and the false-flag plan piggybacked by people with nefarious intent upon Pres. Kennedy's life, there was panic and confusion. And the TSBD guys were told very quickly to hang Mr. Oswald (the 'pro-Castro' troublemaker) out to dry.

Perhaps Mr. Shelley's wife was NOT the first person he rang after the shooting..................

[Gene Kelly]

Agree on all points... I've always been intrigued by Shelley's role (he was after all Oswald's supervisor for 6 weeks) and he started at the Book Depository in 1945, and was still there (with Scott Foresman) in 1986.  That is quite a long time to stay in one posiition.  One wonders ... 

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

The Martin film shows that precise system in operation (Mr. Truly is standing behind the glass [right of screen]).
Mr. Lovelady is standing on the steps.

But Sandy Larsen insists the man with the bald spot and red checkered shirt on the steps is NOT Billy Lovelady. Are you saying you disagree?

[Alan Ford]

Interesting Note Regarding Mr. Shelley!

Here's Mr. Oswald being led in to the Homicide Office after his arrest. The time is 2pm.

He is taken past the seated Mr. Lovelady.

What is less known is that he is about to see Mr. Shelley too---------------who is about to be brought out of the back room, where he's having his affidavit taken, so that Mr. Oswald can be placed in there.

The first thought that occurs is that Mr. Oswald may namecheck Mr. Shelley in interrogation in a while because he assumes that he is still on site and can be easily asked to verify what Mr. Oswald is saying.

And the second thought? If I am right about the TSBD-centered false-flag operation, then Mr. Oswald's seeing Messrs. Lovelady and Shelley here will surely give him (as he thinks) important context as to why he's under arrest: 'They've got the other guys too'. He thinks they're all gonna be charged as non-shooter confederates in the assassination.

Capt. Fritz will not disabuse him of this notion. He will not let Mr. Oswald know that he is being charged as the shooter, and the lone-wolf shooter into the bargain.

There will come a dangerous moment in the Midnight Press Conference when Mr. Oswald will tell a reporter that no, he has not been charged with 'shoot[ing] the President'. That's not what I'm being accused of, don't be silly. The reporter corrects him ('You have been charged with that'). And what happens? The press conference is brought to a sudden close and Mr. Oswald is whisked away.

The world must not know about the lie Mr. Oswald is being fed about what the world is being told.

Mr. Oswald must not know about the lie the world is being fed about what Mr. Oswald is being told.

The poor man doesn't know he has an alibi for what the world is actually being told he's done. He thinks he's in trouble for what he (and Bill & Billy, two other non-shooting parties to the false-flag operation) did do.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Paul Jolliffe]

17 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

Interesting Note Regarding Mr. Shelley!

Here's Mr. Oswald being led in to the Homicide Office after his arrest. The time is 2pm.

He is taken past the seated Mr. Lovelady.

What is less known is that he is about to see Mr. Shelley too---------------who is about to be brought out of the back room, where he's having his affidavit taken, so that Mr. Oswald can be placed in there.

The first thought that occurs is that Mr. Oswald may namecheck Mr. Shelley in interrogation in a while because he assumes that he is still on site and can be easily asked to verify what Mr. Oswald is saying.

And the second thought? If I am right about the TSBD-centered false-flag operation, then Mr. Oswald's seeing Messrs. Lovelady and Shelley here will surely give him (as he thinks) important context as to why he's under arrest: 'They've got the other guys too'. He thinks they're all gonna be charged as non-shooter confederates in the assassination.

Capt. Fritz will not disabuse him of this notion. He will not let Mr. Oswald know that he is being charged as the shooter, and the lone-wolf shooter into the bargain.

There will come a dangerous moment in the Midnight Press Conference when Mr. Oswald will tell a reporter that no, he has not been charged with 'shoot[ing] the President'. That's not what I'm being accused of, don't be silly. The reporter corrects him ('You have been charged with that'). And what happens? The press conference is brought to a sudden close and Mr. Oswald is whisked away.

The world must not know about the lie Mr. Oswald is being fed about what the world is being told.

Mr. Oswald must not know about the lie the world is being fed about what Mr. Oswald is being told.

The poor man doesn't know he has an alibi for what the world is actually being told he's done. He thinks he's in trouble for what he (and Bill & Billy, two other non-shooting parties to the false-flag operation) did do.

All fair enough, Alan, except I know of no evidence that either Shelley or Lovelady had anything to do with a ("security check") false-flag fake shooting of the president. 

How could they? They weren't pretending to "shoot" at the president.

[Jonathan Cohen]

17 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

Here's Mr. Oswald being led in to the Homicide Office after his arrest. The time is 2pm.

He is taken past the seated Mr. Lovelady.

Sandy Larsen also believes that this is not Billy Lovelady. Do you disagree?

[Joe Bauer]

The only evidence that would be given any credibility at all regards William Shelley having anything nefarious to do with Oswald would be a scientifically proven facial recognition finding that the man shown standing behind Oswald during one of his Fair Play for Cuba flyer passing events in New Orleans just four months before 11,22,1963 was in fact ...Bill Shelley.

I wonder though, whether any top facial analysis company who found the New Orleans/Oswald photo matched Shelley, might be pressured to suppress their findings.

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

Please explain the video posted above where we see a policeman at the top of the TXSBD front entrance steps having some physical contact with a person who then appears to be falling down?

Who was the falling down man and what caused him to do so?

[Paul Jolliffe]

26 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

The only evidence that would be given any credibility at all regards William Shelley having anything nefarious to do with Oswald would be a scientifically proven facial recognition finding that the man shown standing behind Oswald during one of his Fair Play for Cuba flyer passing events in New Orleans just four months before 11,22,1963 was in fact ...Bill Shelley.

I wonder though, whether any top facial analysis company who found the New Orleans/Oswald photo matched Shelley, might be pressured to suppress their findings.

 

 

 

Joe,

I agree that the New Orleans images of a man who very strongly resembled Bill Shelley with "Oswald" are extremely suspicious.

The "Elzie Glaze" letters referenced earlier are certainly provocative. We need more details about Bill Shelley - he absolutely was "Oswald's" daily supervisor at work. Was Shelley also doubling as some sort of cut-out to "Oswald" for an intelligence agency, one whose exact intentions remained unknown to Shelley?

Very possibly, but we need more evidence. 

 

[Alan Ford]

3 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

All fair enough, Alan, except I know of no evidence that either Shelley or Lovelady had anything to do with a ("security check") false-flag fake shooting of the president. 

How could they? They weren't pretending to "shoot" at the president.

Not a "security check" missed-shots false-flag incident, Mr. Jolliffe-----------------a missed-shots incident to be blamed on pro-Castroites, with Mr. Oswald's involvement (though not as a shooter) a key element. C-Day was coming up: 1 December.

The Towner film shows Mr. Lovelady acting very strangely as Pres. Kennedy is passing.

Mr. Shelley lies his head off (with backing from Mr. Lovelady) about his immediate post-assassination movements.

The Darnell film shows Officer Marrion L. Baker running towards something very odd by the mailboxes.

Mr. Harold Norman let the cat out of the bag on the existence of an external floor-laying crew that had been working on the fifth & sixth floors.

Mr. Truly vouched for a man in a tan jacket caught by Officer Baker walking away from the rear stairs a number of floors up.

Mr. Truly vouched for Mr. Oswald at the front door a good number of minutes after the shooting.

All facts that magically failed to make it into the official fairytale.

The TSBD was at the heart of this thing (NOT the assassination BUT the reckless White House-approved false-flag operation that gave forces who wished Pres. Kennedy dead a golden, one-off opportunity to get him in a way that guaranteed that no proper investigation into the crime would happen afterwards).

Mr. Robert Kennedy, racked by grief, rage and guilt, had no choice but to back the cover-up---------------revenge on those who had exploited his gung-ho false-flag initiative and murdered his beloved brother would have to wait.

Pres. Kennedy arrived in Dealey Plaza expecting to hear gunfire. The poor man had of course no idea he, or anyone else, would actually be made a genuine target.

Mr. Robert Kennedy knew there would be a big incident in Dealey Plaza. Why, he himself had been a driving force in putting the reckless plan together. But he had of course no idea of the bloody horror that was in the works. The story of his life in the years between 11/22/63 and his own ghastly murder in 1968 was the story of a man who went through agonies of the soul, and emerged as the finest President America would never have.

[Alan Ford]

On 11/21/2023 at 12:17 AM, Alan Ford said:

Interesting Note Regarding Mr. Shelley!

Here's Mr. Oswald being led in to the Homicide Office after his arrest. The time is 2pm.

He is taken past the seated Mr. Lovelady.

What is less known is that he is about to see Mr. Shelley too---------------who is about to be brought out of the back room, where he's having his affidavit taken, so that Mr. Oswald can be placed in there.

A little off-topic, but I never before noticed this guy here in the Homicide Office. Mr. Danny Arce:

We know that at this same time Mr. Jack Dougherty was there too, also giving an affidavit. Could this casually dressed fellow be him?

Edited November 22, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Paul Jolliffe]

15 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

Not a "security check" missed-shots false-flag incident, Mr. Jolliffe-----------------a missed-shots incident to be blamed on pro-Castroites, with Mr. Oswald's involvement (though not as a shooter) a key element. C-Day was coming up: 1 December.

The Towner film shows Mr. Lovelady acting very strangely as Pres. Kennedy is passing.

Mr. Shelley lies his head off (with backing from Mr. Lovelady) about his immediate post-assassination movements.

The Darnell film shows Officer Marrion L. Baker running towards something very odd by the mailboxes.

Mr. Harold Norman let the cat out of the bag on the existence of an external floor-laying crew that had been working on the fifth & sixth floors.

Mr. Truly vouched for a man in a tan jacket caught by Officer Baker walking away from the rear stairs a number of floors up.

Mr. Truly vouched for Mr. Oswald at the front door a good number of minutes after the shooting.

All facts that magically failed to make it into the official fairytale.

The TSBD was at the heart of this thing (NOT the assassination BUT the reckless White House-approved false-flag operation that gave forces who wished Pres. Kennedy dead a golden, one-off opportunity to get him in a way that guaranteed that no proper investigation into the crime would happen afterwards).

Mr. Robert Kennedy, racked by grief, rage and guilt, had no choice but to back the cover-up---------------revenge on those who had exploited his gung-ho false-flag initiative and murdered his beloved brother would have to wait.

Pres. Kennedy arrived in Dealey Plaza expecting to hear gunfire. The poor man had of course no idea he, or anyone else, would actually be made a genuine target.

Mr. Robert Kennedy knew there would be a big incident in Dealey Plaza. Why, he himself had been a driving force in putting the reckless plan together. But he had of course no idea of the bloody horror that was in the works. The story of his life in the years between 11/22/63 and his own ghastly murder in 1968 was the story of a man who went through agonies of the soul, and emerged as the finest President America would never have.

Alan,

Can you summarize what was suspicious about Billy Lovelady's movements at the moment the motorcade went by?