Earl Warren on 1/21/64: “...trace every dollar that we can in possession of Oswald and every dollar that he spent, because we don’t know where his money came from.” AND, the WC considered burning Oswald's body to prevent exhumation.

[Jim Hargrove]

John and Paul,

I can’t keep up with you guys, but yeah, there is lots more about the bogus tax returns, but the obvious thing here is that “Oswald” was in the USMC for more than two months toward the end of 1956, but did not report any income from it.  And, as John B. points out, any Marine vet will tell you the Corps takes the IRS seriously and makes every effort to see that their soldiers complete their IRS forms accurately.

The reason “Oswald’s” 1956 USMC income was not reported on his Form 1040 is simple.    The Department of the Navy didn’t officially figure out how much Classic Oswald® was paid until Sept. 15, 1964, long after the FBI faked the documents and the WC completed its work.

If anyone is wondering, there are W-2 forms in the National Archives that precisely match the three employer entries in the 1956 Form 1040.  In the late 1990s, when I began working with John Armstrong, he sent me first generation blowups of the three 1956 W-2 forms from NARA and asked me to find a typography expert to examine them.  John asked me to carefully black out “Oswald’s” name because, as he put it, “when people learn they're checking into Lee Harvey Oswald, things always get weird.”

And so I blacked out Oswald’s name and sent the three W-2 forms to a woman named Dawn Stanford, an archivist at the IBM Corporation.  Dawn had thousands of examples of typewriter fonts and declared that, on close examination, the three W-2s had a very unusual font and, in her opinion, they were all typed on the same machine.  What are the chances of that?

Interestingly enough, Social Security Administration records report no income whatsoever for “Lee Harvey Oswald” prior to his USMC employment.

For more information from John Armstrong on this, see these two pages on my website:
 

1955 and 1956
 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

"NOTE: Frank and Gloria's memories of LEE Oswald, had they testified before the Warren Commission, could have exposed HARVEY and LEE. While LEE was working at Tujague's on the 3rd floor of the Sanlin Building, in January, 1956, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was working on the 2nd floor of the Sanlin Building for the J.R. Michels, Jr. freight forwarding company. The manager of J.R. Michels, Jr. was Nick Mazza, and was a close friend of Frank DiBenedetto. HARVEY and LEE worked in the same building, for freight forwarding companies, in January, 1956."

This furthers my notion that Harvey and Lee always worked the same areas.  They separated at times, but always came together in the same areas working the same jobs.  Work in N O, in the military in Japan, the summer of 1963 in N O again, and at the TSBD.

The business of the two being, if they were there at the same time, at the Sanlin Building could have been training in their role as a "double spy". 

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

For the readership, about the exhumation and cremation of "Oswald's" corpse issue":

When reading page 74 of Jim's original link, it is obvious that Acting Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach wrote to Earl Warren repeatedly ("letters") about the possibility of cremating "Oswald's" corpse. Katzenbach  voiced concern over the expense of cops guarding "Oswald's" grave. 

Such an absurd concern about a trivial amount of money in the latter part of January of 1964 is not worth discussing.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcexec/wcex0121/html/WcEx0121_0074a.htm

But something else is much more interesting to us:  namely just as we saw with the initial pressure on LBJ to create the Warren Commission (without which there could have been no cover-up), Katzenbach again was the chosen conduit from someone outside to pressure the Commission.

Remember, it was to Nicholas Katzenbach that Eugene Rostow made three (!!!) incredibly suspicious phone calls in mid-afternoon on Sunday, November 24, 1963 to pressure Katzenbach to relay Rostow's idea for the Warren Commission to LBJ. Yet Rostow was so concerned about Katzenbach's perceived inaction that Rostow then called LBJ's Press Secretary, Bill Moyers, a call that was taped. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/audio/LbjLib/Audio_lbjlib_WCC1A_Moyers-Rostow_24-Nov-1963_2_1.mp3

"Oswald" was not pronounced dead until 2:07, yet well before 4:00 pm, Rostow made no less than four calls to men close to LBJ to urge the creation of an oversight body composed in part of men from outside the government. These calls become even more intriguing when we realize that Rostow was speaking with (and on behalf of) some other, unnamed party in his office at that very moment!

Rostow used Katzenbach on 11/24/63 to raise an issue which should have been the last thing on anyone's mind at that moment - the prime suspect had just been murdered! - yet Rostow's overriding concern was the creation of a body to oversee (control, limit the damage, censor, etc.) any FBI report!

OK. With that background in mind, I ask:

Who persuaded Katzenbach to write "letters" (PLURAL!) in January to Earl Warren voicing concern about an equally implausible (specious) issue?

We don't know, but I'd bet serious money that it was someone like Eugene Rostow. Rostow was no rube, worried about a few dollars. The pressure to exhume and cremate "Oswald's" mortal remains could only have been to serve some other purpose: to destroy the forensic evidence that the "Oswald" buried in Rose Hill Park Cemetery was NOT the historical Lee Harvey Oswald.

Katzenbach's letters to Earl Warren may yet contain clues about the source of the ludicrous "expense" concern.

We need those letters.

Malcolm Blunt, is there any way to dig Katzenbach's letters to Earl Warren out of the bowels of the Archives?

Indeed!  Deputy Attorney General Katzenbach was all over this cover-up.  If Malcolm or anyone else can get copies of his letters to Warren out of the Archives, let’s urge them to do so!

On the following day, November 25, Belmont sent a memo to FBI Assistant Director William Sullivan indicating again that conclusions on the assassination had already been arrived at, and that the primary problem was one of convincing others of their validity. Belmont begins this memo by saying that the Director [Hoover] had been talking to Katzenbach, who in turn had been speaking with "the White House." Katzenbach reportedly felt that the FBI's report should include everything which may raise a question in the mind of the public or the press regarding this matter, including information on Oswald's military record, his return from Russia, and his trip to Mexico.

Belmont went on to state that "In other words, this report is to settle the dust in so far as Oswald and his activities are concerned....

From “The First 72 Hours” by Donald Gibson
Probe Magazine, Nov-Dec 1999 (excerpted
from Gibson’s book, The Kennedy Assassination
Cover-up.

[Ron Bulman]

Interesting choice of words.  If I remember right John J McCloy said he wanted to settle the dust, as quickly as possible.

[Paul Jolliffe]

18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Interesting choice of words.  If I remember right John J McCloy said he wanted to settle the dust, as quickly as possible.

Oh yeah, you're absolutely right, Ron!

Read this FBI memo about David Wise's 1968 book in which he noted that McCloy subtly reshaped the purpose of the Commission as originally stated by Earl Warren:

"He noted that when the Warren Commission first assembled, Chief Justice Warren urged his six associates to rely on the FBI and other existing Federal agencies in gathering the facts but that John J. McCloy warned his fellow panel members "This Commission is set up to lay the dust...not only ,.. in the United States but all over the world...there is a potential culpability here on the part of the Secret Service and even the FBI," and that their reports might be "self-serving."

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/M Disk/McCloy John J/Item 27.pdf

 

Now this other link (below) implies that the "settle the dust" phrase in Belmont's memo of 11/26/63 originated with Nicholas Katzenbach and was relayed to J. Edgar Hoover, who then repeated it to Belmont. 

As Donald Gibson noted the curious similarity in phrasing more than 20 years ago, I have to ask: isn't it plausible that the concern with "dust" came from a common origin? That both McCloy and Katzenbach used very similar phrases to describe the purpose of the Warren Commission after a conversation with some unknown decision - maker (pronounced "conspirator") who must have used that phrase (or a variation thereof) is  . . . probable/certain?

"The pressure to issue a. report, that would establish Oswald as the lone assassin is reflected in internal Bureau memoranda. On Kovember 24, 1963, Assistant FBI Director Alan Belmont informed Sssociate FBI Director Clyde Tolson that he was sending two Headquarters supervisors to Dallas to review the written interview and investigative findings of our agents on the Oswald matter, so that we can prepare a memorandum to the Attorney General . . . [setting] out the evidence showing that Oswald is responsible for t,he shooting that killed the President.66 On November 26, 1963, J. Edgar Hoover spoke with Deputy Attorney General Katzenbach. According to Alan Belmont, Hoover relayed : Katzenbach’s feeling that this [FBI] report should include everything which may raise a question in the mind of the public or press regarding this matter. In other words, this report is to settle the dust, insofar as Oswald and his activities are concerned. both from the standpoint that ‘he is the man who assassinated the President, and relative to Oswald himself and his activities and background.67"

(See page 33 of this next attachment.)

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/book5/pdf/ChurchB5_3_Response.pdf

[Jim Hargrove]

On 6/10/2019 at 10:26 AM, John Butler said:

"NOTE: Frank and Gloria's memories of LEE Oswald, had they testified before the Warren Commission, could have exposed HARVEY and LEE. While LEE was working at Tujague's on the 3rd floor of the Sanlin Building, in January, 1956, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was working on the 2nd floor of the Sanlin Building for the J.R. Michels, Jr. freight forwarding company. The manager of J.R. Michels, Jr. was Nick Mazza, and was a close friend of Frank DiBenedetto. HARVEY and LEE worked in the same building, for freight forwarding companies, in January, 1956."

This furthers my notion that Harvey and Lee always worked the same areas.  They separated at times, but always came together in the same areas working the same jobs.  Work in N O, in the military in Japan, the summer of 1963 in N O again, and at the TSBD.

The business of the two being, if they were there at the same time, at the Sanlin Building could have been training in their role as a "double spy". 

John,

The way I explain this is that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was just given a “taste” of American-born Lee Oswald’s life, starting in elementary and middle schools.  There, for example, while Lee Oswald attended school regularly, Harvey’s attendance was sporadic, sometimes part-time, and he was often truant.  The whole idea of this was so Harvey, posing as Lee, could answer specific questions from Soviet interrogators about Lee’s life.

I don’t think Lee was ever employed at the TSBD, although he probably appeared there to help set up Harvey as the patsy.

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

The way I explain this is that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was just given a “taste” of American-born Lee Oswald’s life, starting in elementary and middle schools.  There, for example, while Lee Oswald attended school regularly, Harvey’s attendance was sporadic, sometimes part-time, and he was often truant.  The whole idea of this was so Harvey, posing as Lee, could answer specific questions from Soviet interrogators about Lee’s life.

I don’t think Lee was ever employed at the TSBD, although he probably appeared there to help set up Harvey as the patsy.

Jim,

I generally bow to your opinions based on your long years researching this topic, better resources, long years of thinking about the Oswalds, and others who are of help.  I can see why you are saying what you said.  It is evidence and fact based.  I like the idea that Harvey was around Lee to learn things about his life in preparation for the defection.  I agree with your statement that Lee was not employed at the TSBD.

I generally like to push the boundaries.  Sometimes, that pays off and you find a different way to look at things and a greater understanding.  Other times, that might result in a blunder and making a big mistake in your thinking.  I done a few of those. 

I offer this for your consideration.  I think Harvey and Lee had a closer relationship than most think.  I base this on a picture in Russia of an Oswald and Marina hugging.  The Oswald's face is hidden from view.  But, his left ear was not.  The Oswald in the photo did not have the characteristic 2-bend crook in his upper left ear rim.  This is a characteristic of Harvey.  So, the conclusion is Lee was in Russia.  They shared Marina.  Being a spy, that was her role.  And, that sharing continued on the return to the U.S.  It explains some of the odd things about the Oswald pair. 

I believe the surly, uncommunicative, and distant Oswald at the TSBD was Lee.  They may have looked alike enough to pass, but I would bet they didn't sound alike. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

The way I explain this is that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was just given a “taste” of American-born Lee Oswald’s life, starting in elementary and middle schools.  There, for example, while Lee Oswald attended school regularly, Harvey’s attendance was sporadic, sometimes part-time, and he was often truant.  The whole idea of this was so Harvey, posing as Lee, could answer specific questions from Soviet interrogators about Lee’s life.

I don’t think Lee was ever employed at the TSBD, although he probably appeared there to help set up Harvey as the patsy.

Jim,

Do you think it was Lee who visited Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth at the Furniture Mart on a weekday in early November of 1963? Peter Dale Scott thinks it is an impostor. 

I go back and forth on this one.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m2.htm

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

Do you think it was Lee who visited Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth at the Furniture Mart on a weekday in early November of 1963? Peter Dale Scott thinks it is an impostor. 

I go back and forth on this one.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m2.htm

My bet is that it was the American-born Oswald

To point out the obvious, SOMEONE was running around Dallas and environs setting up the Russian-speaking Oswald for the hit, not only at the Furniture Mart but also during all those Sports Drome rifle range appearances, at the Southland Hotel, the Downtown Lincoln-Mercury dealership, the Yates hitch-hiking drama, and so on.  Every new person cast into those “impersonations” was another person who had to be silenced.  How many people would you want involved if you were a conspirator, or even a low-level mechanic?

It’s mostly hearsay, but there’s really a lot of evidence that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was hanging around with Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club during the very period “Lee Harvey Oswald” was sheep-dipping himself in New Orleans as a Castro-loving commie.  The summer of ‘63 Dallas Oswald, according to quite a few accounts, could drive a car.

There’s something that always amazed me about the incident you linked above, in which the WC brought together Marina and Edith Whitworth and Gertrude Hunter ostensibly to figure out what happened that day at the Furniture Mart.  Although Marina and others clearly testified “Lee Harvey Oswald” didn’t drive and didn’t have a driver’s license, Whitworth and Hunter both said he drove a two-toned blue car to the store. 

Faced with that wildly conflicting testimony, not one of the high-paid WC attorneys apparently thought of calling the Texas Department of Public Safety to ask if “Lee Harvey Oswald” had a Texas driver’s license.  Not one!  

Perhaps none of them knew how to place a call to Austin. 

Or perhaps they were all afraid of finding what Jim Garrison had no difficulty finding.  The Oswald with the valid Texas driver’s license is my pick as the man who towed his “family” into Whitworth’s Furniture Mart that day.  And made the other appearances in and around Dallas appearing to be a presidential assassin.  And paraded around on the sixth floor of the TSBD on 11/22/63, and murdered J.D. Tippit, and led the cops to the Texas Theater where he sat in the balcony until he was led out by the cops soon after the patsy was arrested on the main floor. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

My bet is that it was the American-born Oswald

To point out the obvious, SOMEONE was running around Dallas and environs setting up the Russian-speaking Oswald for the hit, not only at the Furniture Mart but also during all those Sports Drome rifle range appearances, at the Southland Hotel, the Downtown Lincoln-Mercury dealership, the Yates hitch-hiking drama, and so on.  Every new person cast into those “impersonations” was another person who had to be silenced.  How many people would you want involved if you were a conspirator, or even a low-level mechanic?

It’s mostly hearsay, but there’s really a lot of evidence that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was hanging around with Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club during the very period “Lee Harvey Oswald” was sheep-dipping himself in New Orleans as a Castro-loving commie.  The summer of ‘63 Dallas Oswald, according to quite a few accounts, could drive a car.

There’s something that always amazed me about the incident you linked above, in which the WC brought together Marina and Edith Whitworth and Gertrude Hunter ostensibly to figure out what happened that day at the Furniture Mart.  Although Marina and others clearly testified “Lee Harvey Oswald” didn’t drive and didn’t have a driver’s license, Whitworth and Hunter both said he drove a two-toned blue car to the store. 

Faced with that wildly conflicting testimony, not one of the high-paid WC attorneys apparently thought of calling the Texas Department of Public Safety to ask if “Lee Harvey Oswald” had a Texas driver’s license.  Not one!  

Perhaps none of them knew how to place a call to Austin. 

Or perhaps they were all afraid of finding what Jim Garrison had no difficulty finding.  The Oswald with the valid Texas driver’s license is my pick as the man who towed his “family” into Whitworth’s Furniture Mart that day.  And made the other appearances in and around Dallas appearing to be a presidential assassin.  And paraded around on the sixth floor of the TSBD on 11/22/63, and murdered J.D. Tippit, and led the cops to the Texas Theater where he sat in the balcony until he was led out by the cops soon after the patsy was arrested on the main floor. 

Jim,

It certainly seems plausible to me that the LHO who visited the Furniture Mart and who met Whitworth and Hunter was the real Lee Oswald.

But then if it was one giant impersonation, how (and why) did Lee get June Oswald to accompany him to the Furniture Mart? Whitworth and Hunter were adamant that the little girl with Lee was indeed June!

Further, the two older women both identified Marina - with a two week old baby, as indeed Rachel Oswald was -  as the woman who accompanied Lee into the Furniture Mart. While Marina refused to admit that she remembered that incident, Hunter made it quite clear that she had seen (and briefly spoken to!) Marina at least twice before! (At a gas station in September or October, just before Rachel was born, and at Minyard's Grocery Store.)

Marina almost admitted that she did recognize Gertrude Hunter! 

Marina did admit that she had been in stores around Irving and had conversed with women (such as Hunter and Whitworth) about pregnancy and babies!

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy some clothes for June; do you remember ever seeing these ladies before, Marina? 
*Mrs. OSWALD. Just this one [indicating Mrs. Hunter]. Perhaps, now, I saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like this out in Richardson--I may have seen a lady like this in Richardson. 

The two ladies knew the details of Marina's hair, her correct coat color (rose), that her face was fuller in early November of '63 than it was in July of 1964, the fact that the car was a two-toned blue and white 1957 Ford, that Marina was completely indifferent to the furniture selection in the store, that she had a cold haughty persona,  that the man started to drive the wrong way down a one-way street until they yelled to him,  etc. 

Jim, I could go on and on with the details from Whitworth and Hunter's testimony, but I don't think there can be any reasonable doubt that they saw Marina Oswald with June and Rachel in the Furniture Mart on a weekday in early November of 1963.

Wesley Liebler was so concerned with this obvious discrepancy that he arranged for Marina to visit the storefront of 149 East Irving Blvd (the Furniture Mart) where he got Marina to deny that she had ever been there. 

But just as Liebler had it all wrapped up - that Hunter and Whitworth must be mistaken - then Marina backtracked!  If she was there, she didn't remember it! (I think she was lying!)

Liebler had no choice but to cut it off at that moment:

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at 149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you? 
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. 
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before? 
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before. 
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie? 
Mr. McKENZIE. No. 
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't recall it now. 
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever been before? 
*Mrs. OSWALD. No. 
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the deposition.

So, who was the man who accompanied Marina and the kids into the Furniture Mart in mid - afternoon on a weekday in early November?

Well, this man - Lee -  came in looking for a gun repair shop. We know "Oswald" (Classic Oswald, Harvey, etc.) was at work at that very moment at the TSBD. We also know this man - Lee - was directed to the Irving Sports Shop where Dial Ryder worked, and where a repair tag in the name of "Oswald"  would later be discovered! This man - Lee - claimed to be living in an "apartment", not a rooming house. This man - Lee - knew that "Oswald" had hoped for a baby boy. Marina even admitted that was indeed what Harvey had hoped! This man - Lee - made a specific time reference to "two weeks" until he would need furniture. That coincided with the week of JFK's visit!

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, he said he was going to need some furniture in approximately 2 weeks? 
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. 
Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did you ask him where he was living? 
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him if he was living at an apartment and he said, "Yes." 
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where? 
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. 
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where he was moving to? 
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he hadn't got that place yet. 

Jim,

We know Ruth Paine knew Lee - he drove her car to Cliff Shasteen's barber shop. We know Ruth Paine knew Marina. I believe the evidence above shows that Marina knew Lee, and that she accompanied him on at least one occasion (the purpose of which was probably unknown to her) as he framed Harvey, two weeks before the assassination.

 

 

[B. A. Copeland]

On 6/9/2019 at 5:39 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

In the same meeting, as Len Osanic has pointed out, “the WC talks about how they want to exhume Oswald's body, and burn it! At that meeting, Earl Warren says, ‘The question might arise as to something on that body.

Now why in the absolute and living world would anyone care to burn his body to questions arising (and concerning) "...something on that body"?! There might be so much in that statement of Warren's that its shocking. What would cause him to be so concerned about anything "on that body" so much that you'd essentially want to eliminate the body or proof of something on it?? This is just absolutely insane unless I'm truly missing something. 

[Jim Hargrove]

Funny you should mention that.  Just today, Paul J. was emailing around this 9/16/64 memo to Rankin in which Liebeler talked about “dramatic changes in Oswald” that took place between the Bronx Zoo photo and the arrest photos.  Sounds like he knew something was weird about “Oswald’s” identity.

 

Paul also came up with the following addresses for the photos mentioned by Liebeler.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_2963.pdf

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_2891.pdf

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_2788.pdf

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0241a.htm

 

[Jim Hargrove]

9 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

It certainly seems plausible to me that the LHO who visited the Furniture Mart and who met Whitworth and Hunter was the real Lee Oswald.

But then if it was one giant impersonation, how (and why) did Lee get June Oswald to accompany him to the Furniture Mart? Whitworth and Hunter were adamant that the little girl with Lee was indeed June!

Further, the two older women both identified Marina - with a two week old baby, as indeed Rachel Oswald was -  as the woman who accompanied Lee into the Furniture Mart. While Marina refused to admit that she remembered that incident, Hunter made it quite clear that she had seen (and briefly spoken to!) Marina at least twice before! (At a gas station in September or October, just before Rachel was born, and at Minyard's Grocery Store.)

Marina almost admitted that she did recognize Gertrude Hunter! 

Marina did admit that she had been in stores around Irving and had conversed with women (such as Hunter and Whitworth) about pregnancy and babies!

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy some clothes for June; do you remember ever seeing these ladies before, Marina? 
*Mrs. OSWALD. Just this one [indicating Mrs. Hunter]. Perhaps, now, I saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like this out in Richardson--I may have seen a lady like this in Richardson. 

The two ladies knew the details of Marina's hair, her correct coat color (rose), that her face was fuller in early November of '63 than it was in July of 1964, the fact that the car was a two-toned blue and white 1957 Ford, that Marina was completely indifferent to the furniture selection in the store, that she had a cold haughty persona,  that the man started to drive the wrong way down a one-way street until they yelled to him,  etc. 

Jim, I could go on and on with the details from Whitworth and Hunter's testimony, but I don't think there can be any reasonable doubt that they saw Marina Oswald with June and Rachel in the Furniture Mart on a weekday in early November of 1963.

Wesley Liebler was so concerned with this obvious discrepancy that he arranged for Marina to visit the storefront of 149 East Irving Blvd (the Furniture Mart) where he got Marina to deny that she had ever been there. 

But just as Liebler had it all wrapped up - that Hunter and Whitworth must be mistaken - then Marina backtracked!  If she was there, she didn't remember it! (I think she was lying!)

Liebler had no choice but to cut it off at that moment:

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at 149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you? 
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. 
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before? 
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before. 
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie? 
Mr. McKENZIE. No. 
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't recall it now. 
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever been before? 
*Mrs. OSWALD. No. 
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the deposition.

So, who was the man who accompanied Marina and the kids into the Furniture Mart in mid - afternoon on a weekday in early November?

Well, this man - Lee -  came in looking for a gun repair shop. We know "Oswald" (Classic Oswald, Harvey, etc.) was at work at that very moment at the TSBD. We also know this man - Lee - was directed to the Irving Sports Shop where Dial Ryder worked, and where a repair tag in the name of "Oswald"  would later be discovered! This man - Lee - claimed to be living in an "apartment", not a rooming house. This man - Lee - knew that "Oswald" had hoped for a baby boy. Marina even admitted that was indeed what Harvey had hoped! This man - Lee - made a specific time reference to "two weeks" until he would need furniture. That coincided with the week of JFK's visit!

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, he said he was going to need some furniture in approximately 2 weeks? 
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. 
Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did you ask him where he was living? 
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him if he was living at an apartment and he said, "Yes." 
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where? 
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. 
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where he was moving to? 
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he hadn't got that place yet. 

Jim,

We know Ruth Paine knew Lee - he drove her car to Cliff Shasteen's barber shop. We know Ruth Paine knew Marina. I believe the evidence above shows that Marina knew Lee, and that she accompanied him on at least one occasion (the purpose of which was probably unknown to her) as he framed Harvey, two weeks before the assassination.

 

That’s interesting, Paul.  I’d forgotten how closely the two women described Marina and her children.  A couple of things come to mind....

This is kind of reminiscent of all those witnesses from the towns of Alice and Pleasanton and Freer who saw “Oswald” and his family on October 3 and 4.  A good write-up is here.

WC apologists would like us to believe those many witnesses were mistaken, or publicity seekers, or whatever, but they’ll never convince me.  As Chris Courtwright suggested, you can plot the “Oswalds” movements on a map from the observers descriptions.  What escapes me is why this pantomime was done.  My best guess is to simply create confusion over Oswald sightings, the smoke and mirrors of intelligence operations.

As for the Furniture Mart women, let’s remember that, by the time they testified, the family of “Lee Harvey Oswald” had been in the news for months and Marina had famously already testified.  Since it surely didn’t occur to Whitworth and Hunter that a false family could be created to implicate Oswald in the assassination, perhaps they both conflated their memories of the Furniture Mart business with what they saw in the news.  Stranger things have happened.

But now you’ve got me wondering....