Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Guest Rich Pope]

17 hours ago, Karl Hilliard said:

I have. There is a whole lot of unsupported speculation. However there was also a lot of CIA chicanery [LSD experiments and mind control stuff] that has been exposed. I can accept that there must have been a Lee Harvey Oswald imposter who participated in framing him and I believe that Kennedy's enemies in the CIA and Kennedy haters in the Dallas police were involved. Johnson and Hoover were pleased that Kennedy was gone and gladly supervised the cover up.

The CIA got into the mind-control business because it suspected the Soviets of having such a capability.  The CIA actually purchased the entire world's supply of LSD at the time, if I'm not mistaken for close to $250,000 with hopes it would provide a tool in the mind-control business.  The CIA unknowingly brought LSD to our country which ironically, became the foundation for the American  counter movement (hippies) during the 60's and 70's.  In fact, Mary Pinochet Meyers (JFK's mistress) experimented with LSD as a mind expanding drug and got JFK to try it because she honestly thought it would open the president's mind to world events.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Rich Pope

[Jim Hargrove]

All kinds of weird stuff happened under the rubric of National Security.  Soviet Intelligence, for example, apparently was quite willing to use children in one way or another.  From the Wikipedia page on Konan Molody (aka Gordon Lonsdale):
 

Molody's early life

Konon Molody was born in Moscow in 1922, the son of a scientist. His father died when he was a child. According to Konon's son, Trofim Molody, who authored the book about his father Мертвый сезон. Конец легенды ("The Dead Season. End of the Legend", 1998),^[2] the Soviet intelligence had their eyes on the young boy when the NKVD chief Genrikh Yagoda helped Konon's mother get a passport for him to go to the US in 1934 to live with an aunt in California (according to his official SVR biography,^[3] he left the USSR in 1932).^[4]

 

^{Schooled in the U.S., Molody (also Molodi) became so adept at English he eventually became a successful spy in England under the name Gordon Lonsdale, where he gained access to a British Naval base and studied the Royal Navy's underwater weapons facilities before being arrested in 1961.}

Edited September 20, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

On 9/15/2019 at 8:26 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Allow me to provide 5 examples showing evidence for two Oswalds over an extended period of time, all prior to the time Sylvia Meagher discussed in her analysis of two Oswalds.

1.  The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Lee HARVEY Oswald attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days during the fall 1953 semester, all the while Lee has good attendance for the very same period at PS 44 in New York City.

The New York City Board of Education record below shows that LEE Harvey Oswald attended Public School 44  starting 3/23/53 and extending through mid-January 1954.

In New Orleans, the 1953 Beauregard JHS record below shows that Lee HARVEY Oswald attended 89 days of school during the fall semester of 1953, at the same time LEE Oswald attended PS 44 in New York City.

Both the documents above were published in the Warren Volumes.

2.  The refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

------------------

For all the evidence on this, click here.

3. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.

HARVEY Oswald Departed for Taiwan Aboard the USS Skagit (AKA 105) on Sept. 14, 1958. Note "AKA 105" Under "Record of Events" near top left of this document:

The Unit Diary below shows that HARVEY Oswald was in Ping Tung, Taiwan, on Oct. 6, 1958.

Here’s a 1953 image of the ship Harvey Oswald took .  Note the “K.A. 105” lettering by the bow.

 

During this very same time Harvey was aboard the USS Skagit and stationed in Taiwan, LEE  Oswald was being treated for V.D in Atsugi, Japan.  From September 14 through October 6 HARVEY Oswald was in Taiwan. At the same time, from September 16 through October 6, LEE Oswald was in Japan. Medical records for NAS Navy 3835 (Naval Hospital), located in Atsugi, Japan, show numerous medical entries for LEE Oswald recorded on Sept 16, 20, 22, 23, 29, and Oct 6.. HARVEY Oswald's assignment in Taiwan, while LEE Oswald made numerous visits to the Naval Hospital in Japan, are an obvious "smoking gun."

4.  While Harvey Oswald was in Russia, Lee Oswald was working in Florida and Louisiana with anti-Castro Cubans and their handlers.  Perfect examples are the HSCA testimony of Marita Lorenz and the infamous Bolton Ford visit.

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For much more on this, see an article I wrote on my website:

The Bolton Ford Incident

5.  The impossible answer(s) to the simple questions: Could “Lee Harvey Oswald” drive a car? Did he have a Texas drivers license?

 

OFFICE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY

STATE OF LOUISIANA

PARISH OF ORLEANS

S T A T E M E N T
 

DATE:               February 14, 1968
      
STATEMENT OF:       ALETHA FRAIR
      
RESIDING AT:        8001 Benson
                    New Orleans, LA
                    Phone - 242-2126

My name is ALETHA FRAIR (MRS. JOHN FRAIR). I live at:

8001 Benson
New Orleans, La.
Phone - 242-2126

I worked for the Department of Public Safety in Austin, Texas from the early part of October 1963, through the early part of December 1963. While I was employed at the Department of Public Safety I worked in the License Records Department. This Dept. Was responsible for the IBM computer records of all driver's licenses in the state of Texas.

My husband, JOHN, was working for the United Press International during November of 1963 and on November 22, 1963 he was in Uvalde, Texas, covering the birthday of ex-Vice President JOHN NANCE GARNER.

I did not go to work on the 22 of November, 1963, but the following event occured (sic) the week after the assassination of President KENNEDY.

During the week following the murder of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, on either Wednesday the 27th, or Thursday the 28th of November, 1963 the Texas driver's license issued to LEE HARVEY OSWALD came into my division.

The record (IBM card) on OSWALD was pulled from the files. Several other employees (5 or 6) of the Department saw the driver's license which was dirty and worn as though it had been carried in a billfold. The license was the talk of the office that day since everyone knew who OSWALD was, and the reason his driver's license records were being pulled from the active file was the fact that he had been killed.

In October of 1966 my husband and I moved to New Orleans and in June of 1967 my husband went to work for WWL-TV, Channel 4.

I, ALETHA FRAIR, hereby affirm that all of the above statement is true to the best of my knowledge.

Signed February 14, 1968.

(Signature of Aletha Frair)

(Signature of witness Gary Sanders)
(Signature of witness Jody Duek)

 

For much more on this, see:

The Man Who Could--and Couldn't--Drive

 

In a thread about two Oswalds at the Texas Theater, I’d just like to point out that there is a trainload of evidence indicating that there were always two "Lee Harvey Oswalds" from the mid-1950s until 11/22/1963!

[Karl Kinaski]

 

Quote, Douglass, James W.. JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters (kindle version) 

Quote

"Oswald. At 1:53 p.m., a man resembling Oswald is also arrested in the Texas Theater and taken out a different door. At 3:30 p.m., an Oswald double is flown out of Dallas on a CIA C-54 cargo plane ..."

I can't figure out the source of this cargo-plane claim ... can somebody enlighten me? Thx.

 

KK 

 

 

[John Butler]

38 minutes ago, Karl Kinaski said:

 

Quote, Douglass, James W.. JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters (kindle version) 

I can't figure out the source of this cargo-plane claim ... can somebody enlighten me? Thx.

 

KK 

 

 

Karl,

This should give you general information on Robert Vinson:

Is Robert Vinson's 'Oswald Double' Story Credible?

Summary

Vinson claimed to have been a passenger on a cargo plane which whisked an Oswald impostor away from Dallas three hours after the assassination. The plane landed close to downtown Dallas, but no-one seems to have noticed it.

22 November 1963: A Brief Guide to the JFK Assassination is the essential JFK assassination book.

It is available as a paperback and ebook from Amazon (USA, UK, Canada, Australia, and more) and Google Play.

A former US Air Force sergeant, Robert Vinson, claimed to have witnessed an interesting event on the afternoon of the JFK assassination.

Vinson’s story was first reported in James Johnston and Jon Roe, Flight from Dallas: New Evidence of CIA Involvement in the Murder of President John F. Kennedy, 1st Books, 2003. A later account placed Vinson’s story in the context of the events immediately after the assassination; see James Douglass, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters, Orbis Books, 2008, pp.298–304.

The popularity of JFK and the Unspeakable has prompted the following discussion of Vinson’s story.

Robert Vinson and the JFK Assassination

According to Robert Vinson, he travelled by bus on the morning of 22 November 1963 from Washington, DC, to the nearby Andrews Air Force Base, with the intention of hitching a ride on an Air Force plane to Ent Air Force Base in Colorado Springs.

He was told that the only available flight was on a cargo plane heading to Lowry Air Force Base in Denver, about 50 miles north of Colorado Springs. He and two pilots were the only people on the plane, which lacked the usual Air Force markings.

Two Mysterious Passengers in Dallas

At some point during the flight, the pilot announced over the intercom that “the president was shot at 12:29.” The plane immediately turned and headed south. At about 3:30, Vinson recognised the city of Dallas. The plane landed on a rough patch of land close to the Trinity River, between downtown Dallas and Oak Cliff.

With the plane’s engines still running, two men in beige overalls got on board, not speaking to each other or acknowledging Vinson’s presence. The plane quickly took off again, and landed shortly after dusk on a proper runway. The two passengers and the two pilots all rapidly left the plane. Vinson, alone, made his way to a building, where he was told to his surprise that he had landed not in Denver but at Roswell Air Force Base in New Mexico.

He made his way to Colorado Springs the next day. Watching the television coverage of the assassination, he was struck by a resemblance between Lee Oswald and one of the two men who had got on the plane in Dallas.

Robert Vinson Works for the CIA

About a year later, Robert Vinson was summoned back to Washington, DC, and from there to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. He spent five days there, undergoing psychological and physical tests, after which he was formally invited to join the CIA. He declined the offer.

Early in 1965, the Air Force informed Vinson that he would be working in an administrative role for the CIA at a secret base north of Las Vegas. At the base, he discovered other planes which contained the same unusual markings as the plane he had taken on the day of the assassination.

Robert Vinson Tells His Story

After a year and a half working for the CIA, Robert Vinson retired. For nearly thirty years, he told very few people about his experiences on the day of the JFK assassination. After the passage of the JFK Records Act in 1992, Vinson consulted his Congressional representative, who informed him that he was now free from any restrictions imposed by his former employment.

Vinson gave an interview to a local television station. The ensuing publicity brought him to the attention of a local lawyer, James Johnston, who collaborated with a journalist, Jon Roe, on the book, Flight from Dallas.

The Context of the JFK Assassination

James Douglass takes Robert Vinson’s account and places it next to those of several other witnesses to form a consistent narrative of events immediately after the assassination.

[Karl Kinaski]

@John Butler. Thx for the info .. ... ... It is my understanding, that there were several Oswald doubles around that days in Dallas, and nobody can say if the Cargo plane double was the Texas Theater double ... . it is therefore one of those interesting story's surroundings the assassination where one can see the fingerprints of intelligence, leading to nowhere ... as intended by the plotters, I guess ... 

KK

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

Mr. B writes endless essays about ... how horrible I am

Mr B does not think Jim is horrible. Mr B does, however, think that Jim seems to be getting a little paranoid (a 'Harvey and Lee' believer being paranoid? The very thought!).

Jim also writes:

Quote

the evidence we have is that Classic Oswald® was arrested on the main floor of the theater and brought out the front door and someone who looked like him was arrested in the balcony and brought out the back door.

At last! Jim has stated clearly that he believes that only one fake Oswald was arrested, and that this fake Oswald was arrested in the balcony, not on the ground floor. Hallelujah!

But how does he reconcile this with Butch Burroughs' account of seeing someone who looked like Oswald actually being arrested on the ground floor? And how does he deal with the obvious weakness of the evidence for an arrest in the balcony?

Burroughs never stated that he saw a fake Oswald being taken down the stairs under arrest, although he was well positioned to have seen such an event, and he had noticed a woman going up the stairs earlier, an event which he thought was significant.

What Burroughs did state, according to Douglass, is that a fake Oswald was "placed under arrest and handcuffed". This must have happened on the ground floor, for reasons I've already given several times (Burroughs never went up to the balcony, and could not have seen into the balcony). If Jim thinks my reasons are mistaken, and that the arrest Burroughs saw happened in the balcony, perhaps he could explain how the evidence leads him to that conclusion. If he's unable to do so, we must conclude either that the arrest Burroughs saw was a separate event to the arrest in the balcony that is mentioned in the police reports, or that Burroughs misinterpreted George Applin's ground-floor encounter with the police as an arrest.

The only realistic way to reconcile Jim's single arrest in the balcony and Burroughs' account of an arrest on the ground floor is to claim that Burroughs was mistaken in some way. Unless the police decided to arrest the fake Oswald twice, first in the balcony and then on the ground floor, Burroughs' (or Douglass's) phrase, "placed under arrest and handcuffed", must be mistaken. Does Jim think Burroughs (and presumably Douglass, too) was mistaken, or does he think that the police actually arrested this particular suspect twice?

Perhaps the best way to resolve this confusion is to look at the evidence for a balcony arrest and at Burroughs' accounts, and see how reliable each of them is.

The Arrest in the Balcony

The evidence comprises two Dallas police reports which include an identical phrase (with a marginal difference in spelling):

- According to C.E. Talbert's report into the death of Officer Tippit, typed at 5pm on 22 November, "Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theatre".

- According to an internal memo from L.D. Stringfellow to W.P. Gannaway on 23 November, "Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater".

Problems with the Police Reports

Are there any reasons to doubt the accuracy of these statements? Jim will probably be able to think of three, any one of which would be sufficient to force us to dispose of the "balcony" element of the reports:

1 - The police officers who wrote the reports wouldn't have been concerned about exactly where in the building Oswald was arrested. Not only was the precise location of no significance, but the report writers may not actually have been aware of what the precise location was. Talbert was in the alley at the back of the Texas Theater for some of the time and may well not have been inside the building when Oswald was arrested. Stringfellow probably wasn't at the Texas Theater at all. Evidently, Stringfellow and Talbert remembered the radio alert which told them that the suspect may have gone up to the balcony, and that's what they put in their reports. There's nothing suspicious or conspiratorial about this. It's just a trivial bureaucratic mistake.

2 - If the reports are accurate, the man arrested in the balcony told the police his name was Oswald, thereby giving the game away. Is there any credible reason why he would have done that?

3 - If the reports are accurate, the police arrested two men in the same building at the same time, and each man had the same name. This strange and unlikely coincidence would surely have become common knowledge among most of those officers who participated in the Texas Theater incident. Yet, in the 50-plus years since the assassination, no-one in the Dallas police force seems to have said anything about it.

There's also the notion (whether it's official 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine, I don't know) that the 'Oswald double' was arrested in order to get him out of the Texas Theater without raising suspicion. But arresting him was probably the worst way to do this. It would have been far better for him to keep his head down, watch the film, and leave quietly along with the rest of the audience, never to be seen again.

The Arrest on the Ground Floor

The only source for the arrest of a fake Oswald on the ground floor is Butch Burroughs. The way his story evolved over the years should give us an accurate guide to his credibility.

Burroughs' earliest published account is his testimony to the Warren Commission (Hearings, vol.7, pp.14-17). Burroughs failed to mention that he saw the arrest of anyone other than the real-life, historical, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald, who was taken out of the front door of the building. There was no mention of any fake Oswald being arrested or being taken out of the rear door.

Burroughs' next account was his interview with Jim Marrs in 1987 (Crossfire, p.353). Burroughs again failed to mention that he saw the arrest of anyone other than the real-life, historical, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald. According to Marrs, the only thing Burroughs said about anyone who might have been a fake Oswald is that he heard a possible intruder enter the building at around 1.35. Burroughs didn't actually see this intruder enter the building, or go up to the balcony, or descend from the balcony, or get arrested in the balcony, or get arrested on the ground floor, or get taken away by the police via the front door, or get taken away by the police via the rear door. If Burroughs had told Marrs about any of these things, Marrs would surely have reported it, but he didn't.

Burroughs' third account, and his earliest account of seeing a fake Oswald being arrested, dates from 1993, 30 years after the event. Jim Glover wrote in a letter to the Director of the FBI in 1993:

Quote

Burroughs also saw Oswald's double being arrested and taken out the back door of the theatre at about the same time that Oswald was being taken out the front door.

Glover wrote something similar on this forum in 2007:

Quote

I talked to Butch Burrows [sic] who was the usher at the Texas Theater where Oswald was arrested and Butch told me and Later [sic] our concert at the Theater in 93 that the police were taking a taller looking Oswald out of the side door at the same time that Oswald was being taken out the front door and Butch showed me the side door.

The fourth and final account is the interview Burroughs gave to James Douglass in 2007. Burroughs repeated what he told Glover, with one further embellishment: "he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater ... Burroughs saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed. The Oswald look-alike, however, was taken by police not out the front but out the back of the theater" (Unspeakable, pp.292-3).

Problems with Burroughs' Accounts

Here is the evolution of Burroughs' story of the arrest of the fake Oswald:

1 - In 1964: no arrest.
2 - In 1987: no arrest.
3 - In 1993: arrest, and taken out of the side door.
4 - In 2007: arrest, handcuffed, and taken out of the rear door.

Obviously, by "side door" Glover meant the rear door; people make mistakes sometimes. The final embellishment, from 2007, has Oswald being placed in handcuffs. Perhaps Burroughs actually remembered this detail but forgot to mention it until 44 years after the event; perhaps he unconsciously invented it at some point during those 44 years, as people often do when recalling past events; or perhaps Douglass unconsciously embellished Burroughs' account.

When recalling past events, people often add imaginary details or forget real details. It is now 2019. Those of you who are old enough, cast your minds back 30 years, to 1989, or 44 years, to 1975. How many events from 1989, let alone 1975, can you remember in detail? Imagine that you have been recounting an event over and over for 30 or 44 years, a world-famous event in which you had a fleeting role. How many details might you have added unwittingly? It isn't difficult to see that Burroughs' accounts from decades after the event may well have been wholly or partly mistaken.

The most striking thing about Burroughs' evolving story is that he neglected to tell Jim Marrs anything at all about an Oswald double being arrested. Marrs was keen to find evidence of strange goings-on in the Texas Theater, and he would surely have asked Burroughs whether he had seen anything unusual. Marrs would surely have reported the extra arrest if Burroughs had recounted it, and Burroughs would surely have recounted it if he had remembered it, as he did with the unseen intruder. So we can be certain that whatever it was Burroughs saw in 1963, he didn't intrepret it as an arrest in 1987. The arrest of an 'Oswald double' sprang into life some time between 1987 (24 years after the assassination) and 1993 (30 years after the assassination).

If Burroughs was mistaken about seeing an Oswald double being arrested, was the episode a complete invention? Did he pluck it out of thin air? Or was there a real event that Burroughs might plausibly have mistaken for an arrest on the ground floor? Why, there was, and it is none other than George Applin's encounter with the police. Applin spoke to the police on the ground floor. He agreed to go with them so that he could give a signed and witnessed statement. He was escorted by them out of the building, most likely by the rear door and into the alley, since that is where the police had parked their cars. Applin was almost certainly the person who was escorted by the police from the rear door, put into a police car, and driven away, as observed by Bernard Haire in the alley.

Conclusions

(a) The police reports were mistaken. No-one was arrested in the balcony.

(b) Burroughs was mistaken. No-one apart from the real-life, historical, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested on the ground floor.

(c) George Applin was the man whom Burroughs and Haire saw being led by the police out of the rear door and driven away in a police car.

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

What Burroughs did state, according to Douglass, is that a fake Oswald was "placed under arrest and handcuffed". This must have happened on the ground floor, for reasons I've already given several times (Burroughs never went up to the balcony, and could not have seen into the balcony).

Not necessarily.  Because Burroughs said he saw someone arrested does not mean he saw the entire arrest process.  As Douglass stated and I have repeated perhaps a dozen times now, the cops may have taken the second Oswald down from the balcony where he was then seen by Burroughs.  Burroughs would describe that, as would almost anyone, as seeing a guy who looked like Oswald arrested. Bernard Haire also saw the second Oswald arrested, although he clearly saw him only after he was brought outside into the alley--he didn't see the entire arrest process.

Mr. B. has already conceded the likelihood of what he calls an Oswald “decoy” entering the theater after Classic Oswald® arrived.  This accounts for one Oswald being seen in the theater by Jack Davis and Warren Burroughs before the official WC time for the murder of Tippit  (1:15), and for the arrival some minutes later of the second Oswald as described in the Brewer/Postal saga.  This is probably the reason the list of theater patrons assembled by three cops had to disappear. These cops reportedly locked down the theater and interviewed every patron inside before several accompanied George Applin to the police station.

Mr. B. writes above that Applin was “led by police out the rear door” even though he knows there is no evidence indicating which door Applin used to exit the theater, and even though he knows Applin  left only after all those police interviews, and even though he has no idea if Applin looked anything at all like Classic Oswald.

The arrest of an Oswald lookalike in the theater is made all the more likely by the sheer volume of evidence that an Oswald lookalike was active that whole day. The closest witness to the Tippit shooting said the shooter looked like “Oswald” except for his hair; Roger Craig and several others said  Oswald left Dealey Plaza in a Nash Rambler station wagon while the WC concluded (and by his photographs Stuart Reed predicted) another Oswald left by bus and taxi.  And on and on. The evidence for two Oswalds in this whole affair is simply enormous.

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said:

@John Butler. Thx for the info .. ... ... It is my understanding, that there were several Oswald doubles around that days in Dallas, and nobody can say if the Cargo plane double was the Texas Theater double ... . it is therefore one of those interesting story's surroundings the assassination where one can see the fingerprints of intelligence, leading to nowhere ... as intended by the plotters, I guess ... 

KK

Karl,

If you were a conspirator, how many different "Oswald doubles" would you want to employ? Each would be a potential loose end who would somehow have to be silenced.

By the way, you can hear Robert Vinson describe this whole event in his own words on YouTube.  There are two parts to his interview, but the second is the most germane.

Robert Vinson YouTube Interview, part 2

 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Karl,

If you were a conspirator, how many different "Oswald doubles" would you want to employ? Each would be a potential loose end who would somehow have to be silenced.

By the way, you can hear Robert Vinson describe this whole event in his own words on YouTube.  There are two parts to his interview, but the second is the most germane.

Robert Vinson YouTube Interview, part 2

 

Karl,

I believe he Oswald double seen by Robert Vinson was the original Lee Harvey Oswald known by the Harvey and Lee folks as Lee Oswald.  Why?  Depending on one's facial recognition abilities one could actually distinguish the two.  Most could not.  They would be seen as the same person based on memory, or a very similar person.

The second thing is where they went.  This is the reason for this speculation that who Vinson saw was the original Lee Harvey Oswald. They went to Roswell Air Force Base, formerly Walker Air Force base. This was a important and high level clearance secret military base.  It was a Strategic Air Command base.  Lee Oswald was no stranger to secret military installations.  He was stationed at several and visited others.  Oswald was not a wannabe spy or a low level intelligence agent.  The Oswald Project was involved in high level government secret operations since the two, Harvey and Lee, entered the Marine Corps.  Lee Oswald was trained to be a defector by the CIA with high level information on the U2 spy plane and other military secrets.  He was exposed to more secrets than most.

If Oswald, either one, was a wannabe spy then how did he come into contact with so many intelligence people and why was he at so many super secret military bases with advance knowledge of spy planes and nuclear secrets.  How did he find spies to associate with? 

Think about it for a moment.  A secret CIA C-54 cargo plane diverts from its original destination to pick up two men in Dallas, Tx directly after the assassination of a president.  The diversion of the plane says these two men were very important.  The place they landed was south of the Trinity River.  This has to be Houston Street down by the Trinity River.  That particular street was under construction on its north end south of the Trinity.  (Which makes me wonder was the construction part of the cover-up plan to have a rapid get away plan handy if needed.  That is a bit too speculative.)

The original Lee Harvey Oswald vanishes from history never to be heard from again after this incident.  As Jim Hargrove says just how many doubles would you want hanging around after the assassination?

A good question to ask is did Lee Oswald know his destiny after Harvey Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby? 

Edited September 21, 2019 by John Butler

[Cory Santos]

The reality is the Burrogh's story has greatly changed.   Had it changed in the 70's it could be chalked up to fear but when Postal's testimony is considered it tends to call his credibility into question.  If his accounts were verified by other sources it would help.  

Simply, Jim Marrs would have thoroughly interviewed him.  The "no one asked" argument fails at this point because Marrs would have asked.

 I do not think Burrough's account is critical to the two Oswalds theory because we have the multiple other sightings, testimony, and Hoover memo confirming same 

[Guest Rich Pope]

19 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

In a thread about two Oswalds at the Texas Theater, I’d just like to point out that there is a trainload of evidence indicating that there were always two "Lee Harvey Oswalds" from the mid-1950s until 11/22/1963!

And I'd like to point out that under the CIA's Project Oswald, there were more than two people who used the name Lee Harvey Oswald.  It's called disinformation meant to lead people to wrong conclusions or to simply to confuse them.  If you want to keep a secret, you simply have to keep your mouth shut.  If you want to protect a secret, you have to lie.  And we all know how truthful the CIA has been in the past.

[Jim Hargrove]

Rich,

I’m certainly open to information about more than two people using the name “Lee Harvey Oswald” as part of the CIA’s “Oswald project,” but how about some evidence for that?  The “Oswald” sightings in and around Alice, Texas in early October 1963 are the only examples I can conjure that may require more than two Oswalds to explain.  Do you have other, specific examples?

Cory,

I wouldn’t bet the farm on your analysis of the Marrs interview with Burroughs.  By 1993, just six years after the Marrs interview, Burroughs clearly told Jim Glover privately that he “also saw Oswald’s double being arrested and taken out the back door of the theatre...”  This was five years or so before interest in two Oswalds began to be revived by John Armstrong.

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, John Butler said:

Karl,

I believe he Oswald double seen by Robert Vinson was the original Lee Harvey Oswald known by the Harvey and Lee folks as Lee Oswald.  Why?  Depending on one's facial recognition abilities one could actually distinguish the two.  Most could not.  They would be seen as the same person based on memory, or a very similar person.

The second thing is where they went.  This is the reason for this speculation that who Vinson saw was the original Lee Harvey Oswald. They went to Roswell Air Force Base, formerly Walker Air Force base. This was a important and high level clearance secret military base.  It was a Strategic Air Command base.  Lee Oswald was no stranger to secret military installations.  He was stationed at several and visited others.  Oswald was not a wannabe spy or a low level intelligence agent.  The Oswald Project was involved in high level government secret operations since the two, Harvey and Lee, entered the Marine Corps.  Lee Oswald was trained to be a defector by the CIA with high level information on the U2 spy plane and other military secrets.  He was exposed to more secrets than most.

If Oswald, either one, was a wannabe spy then how did he come into contact with so many intelligence people and why was he at so many super secret military bases with advance knowledge of spy planes and nuclear secrets.  How did he find spies to associate with? 

Think about it for a moment.  A secret CIA C-54 cargo plane diverts from its original destination to pick up two men in Dallas, Tx directly after the assassination of a president.  The diversion of the plane says these two men were very important.  The place they landed was south of the Trinity River.  This has to be Houston Street down by the Trinity River.  That particular street was under construction on its north end south of the Trinity.  (Which makes me wonder was the construction part of the cover-up plan to have a rapid get away plan handy if needed.  That is a bit too speculative.)

The original Lee Harvey Oswald vanishes from history never to be heard from again after this incident.  As Jim Hargrove says just how many doubles would you want hanging around after the assassination?

A good question to ask is did Lee Oswald know his destiny after Harvey Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby? 

John,

I remember almost chuckling when Vinson mentioned Roswell.  Is that the same thing as Area 51?  You seem to know a lot about these military bases.  Is there anything more you can tell us about Roswell Air Force Base that would be germane to this discussion?

The hardest part of Vinson's story for me to accept is that a big C-54 cargo plane could land by the Trinity River near Dallas and not attract widespread attention.  

[Cory Santos]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I remember almost chuckling when Vinson mentioned Roswell.  Is that the same thing as Area 51?  You seem to know a lot about these military bases.  Is there anything more you can tell us about Roswell Air Force Base that would be germane to this discussion?

The hardest part of Vinson's story for me to accept is that a big C-54 cargo plane could land by the Trinity River near Dallas and not attract widespread attention.  

No Roswell is no where near the Nevada testing range.