EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

Does anyone know why Marguerite and Lee Oswald stayed about 2 years in the Bronx after leaving the John Pic / Margaret Pic place owned by Mary Fuhrman?

Has anyone one heard of a good reason why they stayed and did not return to Texas?

When they left the Pics the address they went to on the upper West Side was 155 Riverside Drive and West 88th Street.  If that address is correct this is what it looks like today.

John B,

Your work on this is VERY MUCH appreciated, but my understanding is that after leaving John Pic’s Manhattan apartment, Marguerite and Lee went to 1455 Sheridan in the Bronx.

Forgive me if I’ve missed something (very little free time lately), but I don’t know where you’re getting those additional NYC addresses.  Neither 155 Riverside Dr. nor an 88th St. address appears in John A’s book, although John Pic allegedly told the FBI that his brother (the kid born as Lee Harvey Oswald) attended a school on “East 88th, 89th, or 90th Street, between 2nd and 3rd Avenue, in New York City….” If so, these records have completely disappeared.

With help from David Joseph’s H&L-based timeline, here are the NYC addresses I can quickly compile for both Oswalds:

American-born Lee Oswald: 325 E. 92 St. in Manhattan (John Pic’s apartment) and 1455 Sheridan in the Bronx.

For Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald, we have: 825 E. 179th, just three or four block from the Bronx Zoo.  

I may have missed one or two, but can you say where you got the Riverside Dr. and 88th St. addresses? (BTW, for the first ten years of my life, I lived at 440 Riverside Dr. in Manhattan. Your picture above might be the back of the building at 155 Riverside Dr., but it certainly isn’t the front, which faced the very wide Hudson River and, I think, Riverside Park.  It was a nice area of the city.)

[John Butler]

Jim,

Thanks for the correction.  I have a stack of unrelated notes by the computer.  There is a note on Marguerite and Lee and just below that was this address without any other names.  If you look at what I wrote I wasn't sure this was the correct address.  I should have made sure.  I figured someone would correct me if not.  It is the address of Robert Oppenheimer.  These notes were in association with the atom bomb video and the female Soviet spy.

I think I got carried away being able to look at these places on Google Earth and being able map the addresses locations in relation to each other with Google. To make up I will do those locations from Google Earth.

You have my email address.  If possible could you send me David Joseph's timeline info.  More than likely that will keep me out of trouble.  Then again maybe not.  Septuagenarian Creeping Senility causes you to lose focus from time to time.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Jim,

"I may have missed one or two, but can you say where you got the Riverside Dr. and 88th St. addresses? (BTW, for the first ten years of my life, I lived at 440 Riverside Dr. in Manhattan. Your picture above might be the back of the building at 155 Riverside Dr., but it certainly isn’t the front, which faced the very wide Hudson River and, I think, Riverside Park.  It was a nice area of the city.)"

That is really interesting.  I was at Fort Dix, New Jersey for about a year and early on went to New York whenever possible.  I liked the place.  For various reasons in advanced training we were not allowed regular clothing so all those trips were made in uniform.  I was attacked a couple of times by groups of female hippies.  The males just stood back and watched.  Those events kind of ruined the idea of going to New York.    

I did street views with the intention of showing the general area in relation to the Hudson River (west side) and back towards Central Park (east side)  All the Google Earth scenes are done that way.  It was an effort to relate things to Emil Gardos' address, the address of Mary Fuhrman (John Pic's address), the alleged address of Fred Blair and Emil Gardos at 77th Street and 2nd Avenue.

One side of the 155 Riverside address would not form in the street view of Google Earth.  So, I did the other side.  That's not relevant now.  Once again thanks for the correction.

[John Butler]

Jim,

This is what the 1445 Sheridan Avenue, Bronx, New York address looks like today.  I'm not sure it would have looked like this in 1952.  Interestingly enough there appears to be what could be a school just across the street from 1445 Sheridan today.  There is a bus there and that doesn't necessarily make it a school.  Were these buildings there in 1952-1953?  That is 67 years ago.  In my experience school buildings don't last that long.  That's not to say they can't.

 

There is another school nearby and perhaps a better candidate for a school of the 1950s.

Location: 1340 Sheridan Avenue, Bronx, NY 10456(
P.S. X088 - S. Silverstein Little Sparrow School

If I am looking at this correctly both schools are shown here.

Edited December 8, 2019 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

18 hours ago, John Butler said:

Paul,

The school records for John Gardos would solve this problem.  What is need is records from the 1st and 2nd grade from a school in Yorkville such as the Ramaz school or some other.  If you could find any other school record that would be important.  If you found 3rd and 4th grade records there in Yorkville, then that would pretty much end the research.

The Ramaz school is intriguing.  Somewhere, Harvey Oswald got the notion he should be an intellectual reading books that people don't normally read.  Going to the opera, etc.  He could have gotten this mind set from his original parents or from a school.  You say the Ramaz school was known for academic excellence.  It was close by. 

 

Does Ramaz have a yearbook that would be available for public viewing? Yearbooks have pictures and names of students who went there.

[John Butler]

Paul,

That would be nice if one could obtain such a yearbook as the one showing Oswald in a classroom in New Orleans.

 

It's a bit strange.  Everything seems to be 7 / 10 of a mile from another related address.  Is this a good walking distance in NYC?

Edited December 8, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Ramaz School.  There are two.  This is the closest to John Gardos.

Another view.

The Ramaz School has a Contact Us section on their website.  I don't know whether asking them anything about John Gardos would result in them saying anything.

Edited December 8, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

This scene is of today's general area at 825 East 179th Street, NYC.  This was an address for Harvey.

And,

I don't know how useful this information is, but it should give one perspective when reading through information about H & L in NYC in the early 1950s.

Edited December 8, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John

Ramaz School, at least today, is some sort of Jewish-oriented private school.  If it was essentially the same 70 or 80 years ago, I doubt John Gardos would have attended it.  My bet is that from both his parents’ economic standing and their communist beliefs, he would have attended a public school

In NYC, public schools are most commonly called by their PS #s.  I walked from the back entrance (on Claremont Ave (sp?) of 440 Riverside Drive to PS 165, a few blocks away.  I think the schools usually have a secondary name from a politician or someone, but I always thought of my school as PS 165.  If John Gardos was still alive and in NYC, my bet is he started going to one of those Public Schools in 1945 or 1946, probably close to 217 E. 86th St. (Congrats on that discovery of the address for Grace.)

Also, I’ll send a note to DJ and ask him if I can send you a copy of his timeline.  I’m sure he’ll have no objection, and it is an invaluable resource.  Would you prefer the spreadsheet or pdf version?  (For some reason, I like the spreadsheet format much better.)

[Jim Hargrove]

On 12/6/2019 at 8:59 AM, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim H.,

You and I both have tremendous respect for the amazing digging John A. has done on the issue of the two LHO's. But I do wonder if his belief that Marina knew nothing of a second Oswald has been shaped in large part because of his repeated personal contact with her - he believes her because he wants to believe her.

Yet, the evidence has been in plain sight for 55 years that Marina is and has been untruthful on crucial matters!

Her prime concern was ensuring that she would not be deported or face criminal charges herself (no matter how unfounded those charges would have been!) No, that was clear from the historical record - and readily apparent to even the junior WC lawyers themselves!

From Norman Redlich's February 28, 1964 memo to J. Lee Rankin:

" . . . there is in fact a strong probability that Marina Oswald is in fact a very different person - cold, calculating, avaricious, scornful of generosity, and capable of an extreme lack of sympathy in personal relationships. "

Further on:

"Neither you nor I have any desire to smear the reputation of any individual. We cannot ignore, however, that Marina Oswald has repeatedly lied to the Service, the FBI and this Commission on matters which are of vital concern to the people of this country and the world."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83#relPageId=132

Harold Weisberg called her "Scheherazade", referring to her own willingness to say whatever was required to save her own skin.

No one thinks she was a witting part of the assassination conspiracy. But she was (and I believe, as in the case of her white lies to John A. about a second Oswald, still is) willing to smear her late husband in any way necessary to get what she wanted - to stay and live in America. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=8FuCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT29&dq=harold+weisberg+marina+oswald+scheherazade&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi87uX3n6HmAhWRwFkKHYhXANsQ6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=harold weisberg marina oswald scheherazade&f=false

Sorry to be so slow responding, Paul.

Even when he was meeting with her in the 1990s, John A. has told me that he couldn’t help but notice that Marina was still a very attractive woman.  And I agree with you entirely about her credibility on many matters, although its impossible not to feel sympathy for her plight after 11/22/63.

Still, I respectfully disagree that it was likely she knew the other LHO.  As indicated earlier, despite the Furniture Mart interviews, I don’t think the two women would have necessarily seen through a sophisticated and deliberate impersonation.  One of the women did say Marina didn't appear as attractive at the store as she did later.

More significantly, my bet is that at least some of people who ran and/or knew about the Oswald Project and the false defection of 1959 were the same people who set up “Oswald” as the patsy for the Kennedy assassination.  There was only a relatively short time between Marina’s arrival in the U.S. with her husband and the time when the assassination plans were clearly in the works.

These plotters, like us, surely thought of the possibility that Marina was a Soviet intel asset of some sort.  From purely a sources and methods perspective, wouldn’t these handlers want to keep Marina completely unaware of the other half of the project?  Same thing for the assassination, which even people who don’t believe H&L mostly concede included an obvious and continuing “Oswald” impersonation.

If you’re plotting another false defection in 1963, or plotting to set up a patsy for the hit, or both, would you want Marina to know your secret?  The plotters had to know that Marina would be placed under a legal microscope following the patsification of her husband.  Would you not make every effort to keep her unaware of the other LHO?
 

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John

Ramaz School, at least today, is some sort of Jewish-oriented private school.  If it was essentially the same 70 or 80 years ago, I doubt John Gardos would have attended it.  My bet is that from both his parents’ economic standing and their communist beliefs, he would have attended a public school

In NYC, public schools are most commonly called by their PS #s.  I walked from the back entrance (on Claremont Ave (sp?) of 440 Riverside Drive to PS 165, a few blocks away.  I think the schools usually have a secondary name from a politician or someone, but I always thought of my school as PS 165.  If John Gardos was still alive and in NYC, my bet is he started going to one of those Public Schools in 1945 or 1946, probably close to 217 E. 86th St. (Congrats on that discovery of the address for Grace.)

Also, I’ll send a note to DJ and ask him if I can send you a copy of his timeline.  I’m sure he’ll have no objection, and it is an invaluable resource.  Would you prefer the spreadsheet or pdf version?  (For some reason, I like the spreadsheet format much better.)

That's pretty much my opinion on the Ramaz school.  Just trying to help Paul J. and John K.

I haven't checked for schools close 217 East 86th Street.  Living out in the country schools are widely separated by miles.  In NYC because of the population schools would not be to far from where one lived.

As far as David's notes, an Excel spreadsheet would be easier to work with.

Thanks for the help.

[Jim Hargrove]

Here, from Google Maps, are the public schools currently nearest to Grace Gardos’ apparent address at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan.  

Google says it is just a four minute walk from the apartment house to PS 37, but for some reason I can’t pull up an image of the school building.  PS 290 and PS 151M also seem like possibilities for young John Gardos, if he was living with his mother at 217 E. 86th.

[Paul Jolliffe]

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sorry to be so slow responding, Paul.

Even when he was meeting with her in the 1990s, John A. has told me that he couldn’t help but notice that Marina was still a very attractive woman.  And I agree with you entirely about her credibility on many matters, although its impossible not to feel sympathy for her plight after 11/22/63.

Still, I respectfully disagree that it was likely she knew the other LHO.  As indicated earlier, despite the Furniture Mart interviews, I don’t think the two women would have necessarily seen through a sophisticated and deliberate impersonation.  One of the women did say Marina didn't appear as attractive at the store as she did later.

More significantly, my bet is that at least some of people who ran and/or knew about the Oswald Project and the false defection of 1959 were the same people who set up “Oswald” as the patsy for the Kennedy assassination.  There was only a relatively short time between Marina’s arrival in the U.S. with her husband and the time when the assassination plans were clearly in the works.

These plotters, like us, surely thought of the possibility that Marina was a Soviet intel asset of some sort.  From purely a sources and methods perspective, wouldn’t these handlers want to keep Marina completely unaware of the other half of the project?  Same thing for the assassination, which even people who don’t believe H&L mostly concede included an obvious and continuing “Oswald” impersonation.

If you’re plotting another false defection in 1963, or plotting to set up a patsy for the hit, or both, would you want Marina to know your secret?  The plotters had to know that Marina would be placed under a legal microscope following the patsification of her husband.  Would you not make every effort to keep her unaware of the other LHO?
 

Jim,

You and I agree that whatever Marina thought she knew about "Oswald", she sure did not know about an assassination plot against JFK. We agree that the plotters would have kept her out of the loop for that. I agree that the plotters either knew or suspected that Marina was NOT an ordinary Soviet girl, marrying an American on a lark. No, she was almost certainly a Soviet intelligence asset (undoubtedly a dangle or "honeytrap", used by the Soviets to tease out further information from men - in this case, "Oswald" -  susceptible to the wiles and charms of attractive young women.) Any reasonable observer would conclude exactly that.

I think it boils down to just how loyal was Marina to a murdered "Oswald" - once he was dead, was there any advantage to her at all in spilling whatever tidbits she might know about this other LHO? After all, if the Furniture Mart impersonation was a one-time thing, and it may well have been, then Marina may have met Lee only once. Remember, she - a terrified young widow with two tiny daughters - was threatened with deportation at her very first interview! She had nowhere to go . . . unless she told the authorities exactly what they wanted to hear. 

But after re-reading the combined testimony of Marina, Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth, I am afraid that you and I are going to have to disagree. I don't believe there is any way to attribute the very specific details in that lengthy encounter (not to mention the previous occasions on which Hunter saw and conversed with Marina!) to a deception. Clearly more work is needed on this.

But for now, I would be very, very hesitant to rule out the possibility/probability that Marina did indeed have at least some knowledge of the other Oswald (Lee.)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m2.htm

Edited December 9, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[John Kowalski]

On 11/27/2019 at 12:30 PM, John Kowalski said:

David:

Did not know that Fred Korth was Secretary of the Navy. Having the secretary of the Navy involved in Harvey's life is very suspicious and more research may provide more evidence about the Oswald project.

David:

Eckdahl's company, Ebasco did a report on the Coast Guard in 1948. Study of the United States Coast Guard, New York, Ebasco Services 1948: managing a federal agency the hidden stimulus, Louis K. Bradgaw. Another possible Navy-ONI-Oswald connection.

[John Kowalski]

On 11/30/2019 at 3:12 AM, Jake Hammond said:

A little late to the topic I’m sorry, I have skimmed through so apologies if this has been mentioned already... 
 I am not familiar with the accents of 1950’s New Orleans residents but ... in his radio interview on the fair play for Cuba LHO has moments where his accent and sentence structure sound VERY much like that of German or Eastern European’s . Having a brother in Germany, Russian wife and having lived in London for ten years I have some experience here. 

 

Jake:

Interesting comment about his accent. I posted about Marguerite's accent, citing Jean Stafford who interviewed Marguerite for a book. She said that she sounded like she had taken elocution lessons that suggests that she was trying to change how she spoke.

What we need is a linguistic profiler to listen to both Harvey's and Marguerite's voices because a profiler may be able to determine where they are from.

Netflix has a series called Manhunt: Unabomber that tells the story of the FBI's hunt for the Unabomber. One of the things they did was to bring in a linguistic profiler who analyzed the language he used in his manifesto to see if they can find out where he came from. It was really fascinating to see what they could learn about him just by reading what he wrote. The FBI finally caught him by publishing his manifesto that Ted Kacyynski's brother recognized as his brother's writings.