EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Kowalski]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Hi, Sandy,

Just got back from a vacation in Central America that cost more than I should have spent.  It will take a while for me to catch up, but I'm starting now.

The fellow from Budapest has sent me a dozen or so long letters, some of which I have difficulty following, but it is interesting.  It'll take a while to catch up to that as well.

Jim

Earlier in this thread some of us did some Weinstock research, it will be very interesting to know what is in these letters.

[Geo Kozma]

On 2/11/2024 at 1:38 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Hi, Sandy,

Just got back from a vacation in Central America that cost more than I should have spent.  It will take a while for me to catch up, but I'm starting now.

The fellow from Budapest has sent me a dozen or so long letters, some of which I have difficulty following, but it is interesting.  It'll take a while to catch up to that as well.

Jim

HI Jim,

here I am, the fellow from Budapest, a retired Rabbi Student - you may see my Bio Intro it is like this: 

I found just a few mentions of his (my great Uncle's )  simulation games of psychodramas at M.I.T  in Kissinger's Isaacson biography, but he worked as an advisor to the Oval Office from 1940 till 1965 and I cannot find him in official records. 

As for me, I was not told about him in my family as we have been living in a Russian Colony - and it was unsafe to mention an US advisor maybe having CIA contacts. When I was in London in 1974 (I was 20  and I had some health condition that has made my stay legal) he forgot to mention me that he was friends with Anna Freud  whose secretary was his sisteer in-law.

I am a retired lecturer at a Theology related University here in Budapest.  

 

i hope to find experts who may be interested in some unknown Professor  . a translator of the more famous Karl Mannheim - who was working with of the late Secretary of State when some of the classified material of his will be public hopefully. [ Quote from my BIO]

Xxxxx

I finished looking up th questions posed here in 2019 by th late John Burton - what is the truth in the Tippit Call, who ar thos Jewish families that might have had some cousin found in the 1940 Kindertransport?

it is public knowledge that many Jewish children (and adults) were rescued and that Allen Dulles and his translator Kissinger did help in this project. They wanted to keep it secret, because even benevolence can be made into material for demonizing the later national level leaders. 

I have no proof of my Professor Uncle being part of that endeavour but anecdotes of being related to the First Lady through being involved with the Freud family - and  so informally he might have been asked in the process of finding new names fit for the foster families. 

if anyone is interested, Jim, I would prefer to give personal infos about the family names only on a personal email basis first...and you decide or John Kowalski if it is okay ot not to publish it.  I sum it up: I did not find any intentional sinister stuff in this question - the Jewish family members and their foster kid issues.

These kids had to be helped. It was nice from the Fuhrman related  -but non Jewish - member of the Oswald clan to want to help someone - a possible relative or just anyone. So this may or may not) be intersting for those embracing (or rejecting)  the Two Oswald project idea.

 

The problem is that Jewish family names tend to change (fom German to other Eastern European languages...and it is frequently lost in the family memory which other family names they are related to.  Here my concrete knowledge is about some very frequent family name, the Roth. (Some of the Gardos people stem from Roths  according to official Magyarization Lists of the 1800s years when this movement was started by the authorities. ) But some of the Roths changed then to the Hungarian Osvat - which is a translation of the saxonian Oswald. 

I see that it sounds complicated. The only thing to see here is that the naming of Jewish families was a constant pressure - first it was obligatory to get German names and then it was  wise to hide behind a Hungarian name...there are minimum 20 different R-lettered Hungarian families stemming from Roth - and some chose other letters - like the Gardos/ Kardosh and Osvat families and many others. Practically only Rabbi families were not lost (as many Archives were intentionally burnt to let the people escape under other names.)

So to sum it up i am sorry to say that although there is a slight chance that a fugitive kid was adopted by the Fuhrman daddy and his non Jewish wife and they may have looked for suitable  Jewish foster parents (like the Weinstocks and Gardos families), but it does not ensure any subsequent  wierd or tragic event.

I am in  contact with someone who worked in the Editions Corvina - where the Gardos  couple worked whose descendants  the late EDU FORUM member John BURTON has found in Budapest and so their  Granpa being "Oswald" was  rejected by them... Except of course a Russian intel expert - like my grandparental CIA expert - would never tell state secrets to grandkids. who themslves work as spies - as diplomats.

I should be patient until the Kissinger  declassification will happen. i did write to their Institute but it may last months to find files of 1940...if this was not just a friendly pivate advice my gandparent twin has provided...without records...also he met Dulles later so in the Kindertransport he was no yet active maybe. But he could have met in 1940 either Dulles in the Oval Office - or his boss Wisner even more.

 

 

Edited February 14 by Geo Kozma
Shortening simplifying

[Geo Kozma]

On 2/11/2024 at 3:54 PM, John Kowalski said:

Earlier in this thread some of us did some Weinstock research, it will be very interesting to know what is in these letters.

Hi John

I am here now...But I cannot be sure if my findings of family connections of the Weinstock - Gardos and Oswald family can be just made public. I think that I can share it with a few fellow researcher...who, like you, did follow the ideas of the late John Butler or even inspired him. 

I do not think my Archive research on Jewishgen has been in any way conclusive...because as you may know and I did write it in my first letter, the Jewish names do change frequently and randomly...some of them are given very frequently [ Weiss Schwartz Blum Green Roth the basic colours and Gross and Klein they all do have then Magyarizationd and Czechizations etc.]

Here in Budapest I have cca 6 Gardos families - I asked some of them and they had Gold and Gruen and Goldberger ancestors [ some I forgot but have a list] and the earliest Gardos family was Roth. In the 1850s years

So I looked up the Roth families [ because there are 8 of them in a Child Refugee List of hundreds related to the Kindertransport - and I found an Osvat family that was very prestiogious in the 1920s and in-laws with the Blum/ Balint family [ also famous for artists...but of course there are other Osvats - from Opman - and other Balints from Berger etc.

I must mention that there are 16000 [ self reported]  Blums on Jewishgen and they have 12 parents related to the Loeb-clan and 20 spouses.

The Prague Rabbinic originated Loebs or Löws are one of the biggest Family Name List with cca 10 thousand families and it is free at www.loebtree.com to peruse.

I did look up the NARA list of  some District Courts and found that most names were present 10 times or 20 times...but Weiss are listed 60 times and Rubin + Rosen are 80 times...

I can imagine that a more experienced expert may have methods to clarify these patterns [ by locations maybe]. 

 

We should set up a Kickstarter as archive search has fees and i am working as the pensions are too low in our ex Russian colony.

But I am a beginner in family tree research [ although I finished a the Cantor and Rabbi school and a History Ph D is under processing] so I can just tell you that I did find Blums who are related to Diamants  [ and Gross which is Mrs Weinstock  and Weiss which are linked sometimes with Roth and Klein and both to Gardos] who are related to Fuhrmans...But as there exist hundreds or thousands  of each...I cannot make a claim that they are the Oswald-related Fuhrman father. 

Anyone who just starts to look for these names of the Tippit Call will find a Wall of Kleins-Cohens and Roth-Weiss-Blums...which is exactly as hopeless to find a special orphan fugitive fostered by the Fuhrman-Oswald family as if they were called White or Smith.

I only started this a few weeks ago.

I can only hope that the Kissinger declassification will yield some clarification. But these fleeing kids paired  to volunteer families are n o t documented as groomed to become Twin Spies...

I can n o t - and I am afraid no one can - find anything in names that could verify the  intriguing claim of H&L researchers.

But I am sure that as the Ellis Island name changes are legendary...here too there was a need to improvise.

So if I wrote a fiction on it my protagonist the young Dulles would ask the Rabbi-son Professor of History of his translator Kissinger * hey listen we have foster family called Oswald...do you see someone who has a rhyming pafent ln the Children List?* And his answer would be that we have several Roth kids...some of them Magyarized to Oswald [ Osvat in Hungarian] and some to Gardos. *

But if we imagine this possible - it still does not make this a proof of later mischiefs...

But this false-naming was obligatory/ unavoidable and benevolent...except later the young Rescue  Helpers became National Leaders who had been demonized because they dared to enter into deciscions that were not liked by the enemies of the individualist freetrade West. So they had to hide this rescue mission and the extra-legal naming problems of it.

 

So this is my twocents.

I think another question arising from your dialogues with John Butler is if we can be sure that the Gardos family was in Hungary in 1963. They worked as translators for the Editions Corvina and I was promised by a previous director to get me in contact with an ex-colleague there from 63. It is surprising that Oswald had a book - and that the Carrtoonist was a Klein with a Roth/Osvat wife...and that the Gardos couple translated a 1000 page thick book on AmericanJews in Ukraine/ Hungary...as if go secure an alibi...[ says my fiction writer part].

If i do find witnesses - as in those days transllators had to go into the Office rooms to effect preprint last changes...it may be that the Gardos couple translated the Cartoon captions too. [ English and German].

I think that the Weinstock wife Rose Gross may have been a cousin of the Gardos Roths [ and Osvats who could be translated as Oswald so even a small  Roth kid accepted his foster parents as Uncles.] But this is my fiction writer fantasy.

 

I am sorry if I am  saying disappointing news...namely that sure Oswald had some Jewish family connections yes...but it will n o t  lead us to the proof or solution in our dilemmas. We will still not read the minds of any of these people in the childhood of the protagonist. Or of one among them.

Geo

 

 

Edited February 14 by Geo Kozma
Simplifying

[Jim Hargrove]

Welcome to the forum, Mr. Kozma.  Hope you’re able to straighten out your password problem.  (Btw, I am always happy to share information with John Kowalski, who has worked on this issue for some time.  Why would you say otherwise? )

You have sent me a lot of material to go through, and after my recent vacation, I’ll need a few days more to get up to speed on this topic.  A couple of quick questions.

Do you agree with our assumptions that the FBI report on the anonymous phone call to the Tippits of Connecticut corrupted the name “Emil Gardos” to “Emile Kardos” and the Louis Weinstock periodical “Worker’s World” to “Woman’s World”?

In your search for the Hungarian roots of the Russian-speaking Oswald, are you trying to locate someone with a surname such as “Osvalt,” or something similar?  I had always assumed the European immigrant’s original name would have been immaterial and probably unrelated to Oswald. Do you have reason to assume otherwise?

Some years ago, forum member John Butler corresponded with Russ Geck (married to the granddaughter of Emil Gárdos and Grace Blair)  and pretty much established that Emil and Grace’s son John Gardos did not become “Lee Harvey Oswald.”  Forum member Paul Jolliffe nicely summed up the multiple reasons that is true.

We’ve concluded that if there is any truth to this potential light on the earliest years of the boy who became the Russian-speaking Oswald, he most likely was an immigrant (probably a WWII war orphan) who stayed with the Gardos family at some point in the mid- to late 1940s?  Emil Gardos was deported for Communist activities in 1949.  Do you agree with this analysis?
 

[Geo Kozma]

Jim, or dear Mr Hargrove... I never said you wd not help me to contact Mr Kowalski . or Joh simply - on email.

By the way I suppose I am older than you (I am 709 so we can stay on firt name evel, i am called Geo and you re Jim for me, okay.

I will not go into any substantial political issue like why would the FBI mix ap two Commie pamphlet or two simiar soundig name...It is none of my business and I think that we cannot pretend to be naive - we all do know that it is not wise to mention that Jewish kids were rescued and with fals names redistributed in voluntary patriotic anti-Tyrant families in the Us and that Dulles and Kissinger had some role as German speakers in it as young lawyer and intrpreter- and that thyasked some History profs (on Harvard). 

 

I did read  - as I sent it to you with my answers - all what Mr kowalsky and the late Mr Butler have said and agree with the conclusion  that some link to the Gardos family may have existed.  BUT I cannot accept the grandchild in-law as a conclusive witness. I know too many important things (like my Uncle working for Presidential Adviors or him being in the closest family circle of Freud - and in-law was the Secretary of the Freuds, that is what propekked him to the Roosevelts.) But grandparents and parents under Soviet Russian rule n e v e r said anything about their past. Or present. This Gardos great grandpa has been an NKVD officer - what a naive mistake to accept his grandchild's husbands claims on him working as a translator for Ed. Corvina...day in day out - and even publishing two books that year...(If they did the cartoon translations as I suppose it can be found out soon. A huge other novel was translatd too that year by the couple. I do not want to conclude that "the Russians" all knew about their involvement with anti-Kennedy  interest groups. i think that all the actors were improvising - because we will never be able to prove otherwise.  but I am here fantasizing - you are right that any other non-Oswald/Osvat  non Roth related child could also have been given into fostering to the Fuhrman Pic family or the Oswalds as a cousin... Due to the name patterns  all Jewish families do have Black and Blue-blum and Red-ooth and Green-Gross relatives and Kleins too. Except that here  we have this flimsy evidence - I think first put up by Mr. P. Joliffe and maybe commented first by Mr. Kowalsky  - in 2019 - and  the late Mr. Butler (may his memory become a  blessing as we say here)  that the Cartoonist was a member of the Gardos clan. (maybe without knowing it)

And my Kissinger related Uncle was approached on his deathbed by an old "relative " (also claiming to having had an Osvat granpa - but I did not know earlier there were several ancestral Osvats ) and persuaded him to NOT send his inheritance in his Will directly to his twin's kids  in the russian Colony  (to put it shortly they came from the State department  and Kissinger wantd to avoid any contact with Russians around an inheritance of his former prof.  So  she has  become then intermediary - a Curator- herself ... And despite the Will clearly assigning her task - with my Mom's and Aunt's etc name in it - she-  later dying in 2018 as an old 98 ys old Jewish woman - has  donated the income of that near-Washington flat to the Charity of the Pope. It is impossible that he would willingly pass his estate to a  (okay friendly) stranger. But this stranger worked for the State Department (his husband also).  I doubt Kissinger was asking them to hurt this old Prof's family. I  only  contacted his Secretary - explaining my problem with the inheritance  in letters - and  HK was willing to see me (but I had my few days budget limit  only to stay  shortly in NYC with my family so we could not meet.

So my answer  to your question why I chose this Osvat Oswald coincidental rhyme - is  that I am a fiction writer    It is quite possible that the kid WAS a Roth with Osvat relatives. That he was a cousin  of the similarly Roth descendant Gaspar - correctly Gáspár - as Mr Burton imagined. The fact is that they may have kept in touch...if not by the cartoons...than in many other ways... My presidential Advisor - for 25 yeas  from 40 till 65  who first got a Visa to viit us in 80 in his last life year -  Grand Uncle had to have contacts from behind the Iron Curtain and there were lots of secret codes...(like card game reports and Hungarian Folk Songs Initial letters etc..I should maybe  send my findings to the Kissinger Institute - and the University Archives - Brandeis, Berkeley besides Harvard -  of my Uncle's and the Rand site -  in the hope that they will be more  helpful. Because they sure are intelligent enough  and abl to see that my inquiry is completely neutral from the vista of the main dilemmas in this  very talented H  and L  conondrum. It is now not sure what was the name of the fugitive foster kid assumed by some - but I think my idea of the names given benevolently by asking an expert who I can trust (my grandfather's twin brother who worked in the oval office and could be asked) 

 

But due to the Jewish names being random  and some names link each family to each others  this search will never lead us to any satisfying solution of the many other dilemmas  of the later adult weird actions of our heroes. 

 

Edited February 13 by Geo Kozma

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 2/11/2024 at 9:54 AM, John Kowalski said:

Earlier in this thread some of us did some Weinstock research, it will be very interesting to know what is in these letters.

John,

On a different note, can you link me to your research on the alias "John Howard Bowen" which was apparently shared by both the mysterious elderly "Osborne" on the infamous/nonexistent Mexican bus trip, and also by John Caesar Grossi (of Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall fame)?

Thanks.

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

On a different note, can you link me to your research on the alias "John Howard Bowen" which was apparently shared by both the mysterious elderly "Osborne" on the infamous/nonexistent Mexican bus trip, and also by John Caesar Grossi (of Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall fame)?

Thanks.

John,

 

Never mind - I found it at "Kennedys and King."

[John Kowalski]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Never mind - I found it at "Kennedys and King."

Hi Paul:

Let me know if you have any questions about Osborne or Bowen.

Also have info about Grossi that is not published, including an interview with his son.

[John Kowalski]

8 hours ago, Geo Kozma said:

Jim, or dear Mr Hargrove... I never said you wd not help me to contact Mr Kowalski . or Joh simply - on email.

Hi Geo:

Sent you a personal message with my email address.

[Jim Hargrove]

In another thread, Sandy Larsen suggested that we start a new topic on the anonymous phone call since the posts are so scattered here and elsewhere.  I've started one called The Anonymous Phone Call to the Tippits of Connecticut.  Hopefully, people here will add to the information I've posted, which is just barely an introduction.

Paul-- I quoted extensively from you in the second post in that topic, and so I hope you'll take a look and see if I copied anything incorrectly.

[Geo Kozma]

17 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Hi Geo:

Sent you a personal message with my email address.

Yeah I  made a mistake. Now i could resend it.

[John Kowalski]

Jim:

Does John Armstrong know about these 2 MK-Ultra sub-projects?

MK-Ultra sub-project # 89 Hungarian repatriation?

MK-Ultra sub-project # 103 was created to study European children to see if they could be used in future CIA operations.

https://www.newspapers.com/article/abilene-reporter-news-mkultra-and-childr/7536363/

https://humansbefree.com/2017/06/cia-using-mk-ultra-mind-control-on-children.html

[John Kowalski]

On 2/13/2024 at 8:58 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Paul-- I quoted extensively from you in the second post in that topic, and so I hope you'll take a look and see if I copied anything incorrectly

Jim:

Can you provide me a link to Paul's post.