EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

Jim,

This is an excellent summary of the Gardos communists.   There is a need to correct one slight error.  "Emil’s uncle Fred Blair wrote"  Fred Blair was Emil's brother in law and John Gardos' uncle.  I figure that's a typing error.

I have for some time tried to connect the Blairs with the Gardos without much luck.  That is until I looked up District 5 where Emil Gardos ran for office in 1932.  District 5 is in Milwaukee, WI and I figure this is where Emil met up with Fred and consequently Grace.  Grace was 21 in 1932.  More info on that is needed to tie that down.  At this point I am just to lazy to look.  (Sandy has looked into this and she can find no records for Fred Blair after 1920.  There is a Charles W. that has a son with a second name as Emil in the 1940 Census.)

Emil Gardos and Fred Blair became brother in laws through Grace A. Blair.  John Gardos' father and uncle were Emil and Fred.  Fred is also the brother in law of Emil and consequently his uncle.

This is what I believe the Tippit phone call is saying.  Fred Blair is the brother in law mentioned.  There is no other good candidate for the brother in law.  Using the old monk's razor, it is the simplest answer.  I have created a time of events for Fred Blair.  At no time did I find a reference for Fred Blair living in New York (Yorkville).  That doesn't mean he didn't live at 77th and 2nd Avenue in Yorkville at some time or another. 

"In his letter to the Milwaukee Sentinel published in the November 19, 1976 edition (p. 22), Emil’s uncle Fred Blair wrote “I have just received a postcard from my sister, Grace Blair Gardos, and her husband, Emil Gardos, who have lived in Budapest the past 28 years….”.  I don't find this statement by Fred Blair exactly trustworthy.  Emil and Amalia (Grace) were still living at their address in 1949 and possibly 1950. 

This document means that Hungary did not accept them in 1948 and they are applying for visas to Hungary as applicants for visas.

Fred may be covering up for what you suspect about Emil Gardos.  Since Fred is saying in this statement that they lived there for 28 years implying by that they live there since 1948.

"As John Kowalski pointed out,  if John Gardos was “Harvey, then there should be no evidence that he was alive after Harvey's murder by Jack Ruby on November 24 1963.” Just before Thanksgiving, I did a search on  a genealogy and newspaper database and found nothing for our “John Gardos” after 1963."

As far as that goes I can only speculate:

1.  Grace and Emil took John to Hungary in 1949 or 1950.

2.  They didn't take John because of the fighting between the Russians and the Germans/Hungarians resulted in massive damage to Hungary resulting in terrible economic conditions that lasted for years.

3.  Grace and Emil took John to Hungary, but sent him back with other immigrants at a later date. 

4.  Grace and Emil took John to Hungary, but sent him back because their lives were under a life and death shadow.  Why?  I believe they were sent to Hungary as US operatives.  I believe that earlier their lives as communists were coopted into lives as communist confidential informants and later as operatives.

Edited December 1, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

This may sound like it is off topic.  I have found a youtube video:

But, it is a riveting and fascinating look at the communist infiltration of the US, Soviet spy methods, and Spies before and during WWII.

The first part of this video the Soviet female spy, Elizaveta Zaprudin, reminds me of Marina Oswald.  This woman was ruthless.  This woman infiltrated the Manhattan Project and used Robert Oppenheimer and others as communist informers on the Atomic Bomb.  They had the plans for the bomb as soon as it was drafted.  Robert Oppenheimer's wife was a dedicated communist militant.  She helped Elizaveta with Robert. 

The connection to what we are talking about is communists in Yorkville, NY.  Robert Oppeheimer live at 155 West 88th Street, NY.  This is in the western edge of Yorkville, the communist capital of NY for Germans, Hungarians, and Russians) in the affluent area.

[John Butler]

Jim,

You are right.  The thing to do with John Gardos is try to eliminate him as a candidate for Harvey Oswald.  That's the best method. 

Unforunately, I don't speak Russian or Hungarian or any foreign language.  If you noticed my writing I barely have a command of the English language.  I take after my dear old Grandmom.  There are records available to be searched in the International section of ancestry.com.  I would buy access to these records if I knew they were translated into English.  Sandy could find no information on whether these records are translated or not.  An another search by me finds that you have to translate the documents.  They suggest using Google Translate or some program.  I'm not confident that it would be helpful.

Edited December 1, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

I used Google’s Translate app on my cell phone last year in Estonia, Finland and many times in Russia (where far fewer residents seemed to speak English). The back and forth instant voice translations often made all parties laugh, but the results usually seemed pretty comprehensible... and those were on-the-fly voice translations.  Using Google’s print translation service SHOULD be better, although I’ve used it only a few times.

If the international section of ancestry.com isn't too expensive, my vote is for you to give it a try.  If it is too expensive, we could try passing the hat or looking for an English speaking person who already had access to the international section.

Thanks for the correction on Uncle Fred (Blair).  

[John Butler]

Jim,

The fees are not significant.  They can be done on a montly basis.  I'm just not optimistic.  Let me do further research and I might give it a try.

[John Butler]

Looks like searching Hungarian records available on ancestry.com won't help.  These are the information categories:

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

To clarify:

The push to examine these records is to see if a trace of John Gardos turns up somewhere, correct? The assumption being that while it's unlikely that John Gardos grew up to become our "Oswald", we can't be 100% sure, and we'd like to nail it down, right?

Fair enough.

Might I point out, though, that faint hints of a second Oswald (and even a second "Marguerite")  began to appear by 1947, a year in which both Emil and Grace Gardos were apparently still living in New York - not yet "voluntarily" self-deported to Hungary? If these hints are real (and they merit serious consideration), then I find it extremely unlikely that little John Gardos grew up to become our "Oswald." (See the links excerpted at the bottom of this post.)

As I mentioned in a previous post, I can't conceive of a mother voluntarily abandoning her 8-year old to someone else to be raised under a false identity while she (and the father) then move to a different hemisphere, never to see their son again. Not to mention that after that son was scapegoated and killed in 1963, both mother and father remained completely silent for the rest of their lives.

Dedicated communists the Gardos parents may (or may not) have been, but the above defies human nature at its most basic, instinctual level. 

No, if these hints of two LHO's in 1947 are correct (discovered by John Armstrong and explored at length on Jim Hargrove's website), then I reject the notion that John Gardos later assumed "Oswald's" identity.

From John Armstrong's essay "Early Years":

"Tarrant County land records also confirm that Marguerite C. Ekdahl purchased 101 San Saba on July 7, 1947. Shortly after purchasing this property, the short, heavy-set Marguerite Oswald impostor and young HARVEY moved in and stayed until Thanksgiving. According to Otis Carleton, who later purchased this house, young Oswald (HARVEY) attended  first grade at the Benbrook Common School (located at the intersection of Old Benbrook Rd. and Winscott Rd.) where Carleton's daughter taught the 5th and 6th grades. At the same time LEE Oswald was enrolled in the second grade at the Lilly Clayton Elementary in Ft. Worth. Carleton said the Oswald's moved in either 1946 or 1947. Mr. Cartwright, a supervisor with the Benbrook Water Department, recalled that the Oswald's lived in the house next door to where the water department eventually located . . . "

"The tall, nice-looking Marguerite C. Ekdahl purchased 101 San Saba in July, 1947, but she may have never lived at this address. I (John Armstrong) showed Georgia a photo of the "Marguerite Oswald" impostor standing in front of a kitchen sink. Georgia said, "That's her, short and fat just like I remember her. She was not a very nice person." I (John Armstrong) then showed Georgia a photo of tall, nice-looking Marguerite Oswald standing next to Edwin Ekdahl on their wedding day, taken only two years earlier. She replied, "I don't know who that is." Georgia remembered buying groceries for the short, fat, Mrs. Oswald, taking her to the store, and remembered that the young boy played with neighborhood children. She remembered that a neighbor, Lucille Hubbard, drove Mrs. Oswald to pick up some clothes from another house when she got a job as a nurse. Mrs. Hubbard confided to Georgia that Marguerite had furniture and lots of clothes stored at this house which was located "across from Stripling School." We shall soon see that this may be the same house in which 15 year old HARVEY and Marguerite were living in the fall of 1954, while HARVEY was attending Stripling Junior High. This was also the house where the short, fat Marguerite Oswald impostor was living on November 22, 1963."

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

John and Paul,

I was also thinking of John A’s 1947 evidence for the second Oswald, but I’m not so sure this totally disqualifies young Gardos, although I’ve always thought it was a long shot. From what we can determine, Emil began getting deportation rulings dating back to the 1930s.  The March 7, 1936 Cleveland Plain Dealer indicated that the “immigration and naturalization service of the Department of Labor” ordered that Emil Gardos “must be deported to Roumania, whose territories include Gardos’ birthplace, formerly in Hungary,” or “to any country of his choice” if he “wishes to depart voluntarily….” 

However unlikely it might seem, could these Communist organizers clearly targeted by the Feds have been desperate enough to make some sort of deal to keep their son in America?

I’m going to keep trying to see if there some way to disqualify John Gardos as Harvey Oswald using online resources.  John Butler’s discovery about ancestry.com’s coverage was a disappointment, but a big database called familysearch.org may turn out to be useful, although surely not definitive.

I set up a free account there (all you need is a username, password, and a legitimate email address).  A search instantly produced the 1940 U.S. census record for John Gardos, and there’s even an icon to click to see the handwritten census form.

Even better, familysearch.org has international databases also, including what appears to be a whole lot of data from Hungary.   Selecting Hungarian records, I searched for surname Gardos born in 1939 and found… nada.  But the results produced a number of Hungarian Gardos born around 1939, including a Peter Gardos born in 1940, Maria Gardos born in 1941, Mor Gardos born in 1935 Edit Gardos born in 1935, and an Istvanne Gardos who died in 1911.

My search technique may have precluded getting results for people born in 1939 outside of Hungary, but I don’t know.  I’m just getting started with this database.  It seems to me its worth taking a look at for anyone interested in searching for John Gardos in Hungary or anywhere else.  I *THINK* all the databases can be searched simultaneously.  It took me just a few minutes to set up an account and do my first searches. This appears to be a powerful database provider for a freebie.  I’ll keep working with it.

[John Butler]

Jim,

Paul Jolliffe makes a number of good points.  However, I am not as firmly convinced that human nature in all cases is as described by Paul.  There are cases where a mother's love would keep her child out of the situation she was about to enter.  War torn, economically depressed Hungary, with food shortages would/could be such a case.  And, if I am correct about Emil and Grace Gardos they may have been entering a life and death situation.  And, even if I am not correct there was plenty of risk and danger to go around for all concerned in post war Hungary.

There are no records for little John Gardos, born 1939, other than that one census record.  I made a number of speculations.  I'll add another.  If I remember my population study statistics from oh so long ago, there is something called a J shaped curve for infant mortality that applies to males during the first year.  More boys die during the first year than girls. John Gardos may have died in his first year.  That's speculation since there are no records of any kind.

Paul did answer one question I had.  That was how far back do traces of Harvey and Lee go. 

I think there is real meaning to the Tippit call.  Someone wanted this information out and known for whatever reasons.  The FBI's reaction to this call is a good reason to do as much research as possible.  They wanted that information hidden and buried it for as long as they could with a Top Secret classification and marking it not for declassification. 

There are some problems with the call.  I have not been able to connect Emil Gardos or Fred Blair to the address mentioned, 77th and 2nd Avenue.  The address is in Yorkville, NY and is reasonably close to the Gardos' home address.  Fred Blair's papers at the University of Wisconsin, Madison says that during the McCarthy era he had to go underground and returned to Milwaukee in 1955.  It's possible that at this time Fred is hiding out at the communist capital of Yorkville at the address mentioned.

Good luck on your searches.  I will keep trying on this end.

[Paul Jolliffe]

John and Jim,

We agree on the basics: namely that our "Oswald" almost certainly had some connection to Yorkville and Emil Gardos.

None of us know whether "Oswald" really was indeed the biological son of Emil Gardos (and the nephew of Gardos's brother-in-law, Fred Blair) or perhaps instead an Eastern refugee somehow placed with Gardos/Blair/Weinstock, but we all agree that the FBI/Warren Commission suppression of the mysterious call to Mrs. Jack Tippit is very significant. 

Further, we all agree (I hope) that the FBI's colossal failure to investigate this lead in November of 1963 was NOT because the FBI had no idea who these men were. No, to the contrary, the FBI knew exactly who the mysterious woman caller meant: the Federal Government had been engaged in deportation proceedings against these men for decades! No, the FBI didn't follow up on this tip because they didn't want the American public to look into any connection between "Oswald" and the (apparent) communists in Yorkville. So they buried this phone call for three decades.

 

Meanwhile, in 2013, Marina put "Oswald's" copy of the Hungarian cartoonist Tibor Kajan's "Circus Maximus" (published in 1962 in Berlin!) (plus "Oswald's" copy of the Communist Manifesto) up for sale. No idea what (if anything) she got for these, but I find it mighty interesting that our man "Oswald" took the time and effort in 1963 to buy a collection of cartoons by a Hungarian Jew, one considered by many Hungarians to be a national hero (a multiple Kossuth award nominee.)

https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/social-sciences/-john-f-kennedy-lee-harvey-oswald-s-personal-books-total-2-items-/a/6106-38424.s

https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibor_Kaján

Edited December 3, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[John Butler]

Paul,

"Further, we all agree (I hope) that the FBI's colossal failure to investigate this lead in November of 1963 was NOT because the FBI had no idea who these men were. No, to the contrary, the FBI knew exactly who the mysterious woman caller meant: the Federal Government had been engaged in deportation proceedings against these men for decades! No, the FBI didn't follow up on this tip because they didn't want the American public to look into any connection between "Oswald" and the (apparent) communists in Yorkville. So they buried this phone call for three decades."

I wish I could have said something like that as well as you have.  I agree. 

There are many different peoples around the world that do not believe in coincidental events.  This research as we are going through it is way to coincidental.  I think another dodge on Hungarians and Hungarian communists was done at the Warren Commission by Albert Jenner.  He did not ask John Pic the names of his wife's parents.  He was very detailed in his asking on a whole lot of other things.  Margaret's parents, the Fuhrmans, were Hungarian.  John Pic was living there with his wife and mother in law.  The mother in law heads south and conveniently opens up room for Marguerite and Lee.  John Pic and Jenner appeared to be working through a prepared and rehearsed testimony. 

This address is in the heart of Yorkville .07 miles from the Gardos' old address.  Supposedly, the Gardos are in Hungary.  We don't know whether John went with them or not.

Like other players in these events it is very difficult to get info on the Fuhrmans.  It shouldn't be.

"Meanwhile, in 2013, Marina put "Oswald's" copy of the Hungarian cartoonist Tibor Kajan's "Circus Maximus" (published in 1962 in Berlin!) (plus "Oswald's" copy of the Communist Manifesto) up for sale. No idea what (if anything) she got for these, but I find it mighty interesting that our man "Oswald" took the time and effort in 1963 to buy a collection of cartoons by a Hungarian Jew, one considered by many Hungarians to be a national hero (a multiple Kossuth award nominee.) "

This is another Hungarian link to Harvey.  I don't quite know its significance, but it is certainly interesting.

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Hungarians and Hungarian communists are associated with Oswald.

[John Butler]

And,  the books below are more of Oswald's prized possessions:

Two books owned by Lee Harvey Oswald. Most telling is a paperback copy of the "Communist Manifesto" (5" x 7", Chicago, Charles H. Kerr& Company, 60 pp., 1946). The other is a copy of Tibor Kajan's "Circus Maximus" (5" x 7.5", colored boards, Budapest, Corvina Press, 1963). Wear to corners of spine. A delightful and whimsical book of cartoons directed toward juveniles. These were included in a cleanout of personal papers requested by Marina Oswald following the assassination and given to her personal lawyer. Accompanied by a letter of provenance.

It seems that Circus Maximus is on par with the Communist Manifesto.  A communist writer that Oswald was aware of, perhaps from his youth, and had obtained this 1963 copy of Tibor Kajan's book.  A question to ask here is how did a southern born American know about a Hungarian cartoonist and communist mainly popular only amongst Hungarians in this country and in Hungary.

I have just noticed the price on this book.  15 cents.  35 cents was the cost of a paper back fiction novel in the 1960s.  I wonder how old this manifesto is?

The Charles H. Kerr & Company's was an older compay established in the late 1800s.  As Kerr's personal interests moved from religion to populism to Marxism and he became interested in the labor movement, the company's publications took a similar turn. During the 1920s Kerr ceded control of the firm to the Proletarian Party of America, which continued the imprint as its official publishing house throughout its four decades of organized existence.

1940s pocket book cost 25 cents.  So, 15 cents is definitely cheap maybe due to age or lowered price to get the manifesto into as many hands as possible.  At 15 cents it maybe a hand-me-down.

Edited December 3, 2019 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

Has anyone found any immigration documents showing them leaving the country or being resident in Hungary or any other country?

Jim: can John contact Marina about DNA testing? If she could arrange for one of her kids to do a DNA test with a company like 23 and me or ancestry or both, it might provide some leads about relatives. If the test shows that they have a relative in their database, they can arrange for them to contact each other. A previously unknown relative who has donated their DNA to a database will be interested in genealogy and will have family information. These companies also provide info about your ethnicity. Given that Marina is East European and Harvey is supposed to be East European, the test should reflect this.

I did my own family genealogy and for the past 200 years and confirmed that they were all in Poland and this was reflected in 2 tests; one I did with National Geographic genome which showed a high level of East European ancestry and another test done by a family member with another company that also showed a high level of East European ancestry.

 

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

59 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Has anyone found any immigration documents showing them leaving the country or being resident in Hungary or any other country?

Jim: can John contact Marina about DNA testing? If she could arrange for one of her kids to do a DNA test with a company like 23 and me or ancestry or both, it might provide some leads about relatives. If the test shows that they have a relative in their database, they can arrange for them to contact each other. A previously unknown relative who has donated their DNA to a database will be interested in genealogy and will have family information. These companies also provide info about your ethnicity. Given that Marina is East European and Harvey is supposed to be East European, the test should reflect this.

I did my own family genealogy and for the past 200 years and confirmed that they were all in Poland and this was reflected in 2 tests; one I did with National Geographic genome which showed a high level of East European ancestry and another test done by a family member with another company that also showed a high level of East European ancestry.

 

 

 

John,

To me, a much more interesting and simple DNA test would prove devastating to the conventional narrative: compare the DNA from either June or Rachel Oswald ("Oswald's" biological children) with DNA from any of Robert Oswald's biological children (his daughter Cathy or his son, Robert Jr.)

According to the implied mainstream narrative, Robert Oswald and our "Oswald" were biological brothers and therefore, their children ought to be first cousins. If Robert and "Oswald" were not biological brothers (as we all suspect), then their children will not be related.

A simple DNA test may yet completely unravel the cover-up.

(John Armstrong first proposed this in a phone conversation with me many years ago.)