EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Kowalski]

1 minute ago, David Josephs said:

Korth was Sec of the Navy....  one might think he'd be aware of ONI activity related to Oswald given how much he was involved with the Ekdahls and Oswalds...

"Played a part in LEE's Life"....

Maybe I'm just reaching....

 

David:

Did not know that Fred Korth was Secretary of the Navy. Having the secretary of the Navy involved in Harvey's life is very suspicious and more research may provide more evidence about the Oswald project.

[David Josephs]

Always good to learn new things....

I read all of Wilcott... and to me it just screams hearsay and idle chatter speculating about Oswald....

I get the impression the Oswald project is talking about LEE unless Harvey as CIA was also doing FBI infiltration work...

Looking closely at April-June 1963 it was almost all FPCC work via 544 Camp.  Bringuier and his 2 friends seem more CIA-connected... and they are anti-FPCC
and seem to be trying to out Oswald as a spy.... allegations of Oswald saying "throw a punch Carlos" or something like that kind of brings Oswald around to the CIA side
with a desire to pigeon hole the FBI... which I think they did with the BS trip to Mexico at the end of this "Project" albeit a few months late.

In the same vein as Newman's new work... placing blame at CIA's feet when it was ACIS/JCS and Military Intel who seems to have coordinated the assassination...

as I see it at least.... FWIW

[John Butler]

From Jim Hargrove:

“Geez, how many times did they deport this guy?  The Cleveland Plain Dealer and several other papers reported he was ordered out of the country in March 1936.  John B. finds the Congressional Record reporting him ordered to leave (again) in April 1948.  And yet in 1949 he apparently has an address on Eighty-sixth St. in New York.  This game of whack-a-commie mole seems weird!”

The story is stranger than that.  Emil Gardos was ordered out of the country in 1934 when his naturalization process was denied.  His naturalization process was started in 1927 and it would have taken another 7 years for his process to be confirmed or denied.  7 years was a mandatory length of time for a person to become a citizen.  Or, so I thought.  By 1934 the time for a citizenship naturalization was reduced to 5 years.  And, over time has been reduced further. 

Some records indicate that Grace A. (Amalia or Amelia) Blair Gardos left America for Hungary in 1948.

I am beginning to think none of that happened.  In 1949 and 1950 Emil and Amalia Gardos are living at their home at 217 East 86^th Street, in Yorkville, New York, NY.

I could be that Emil and Grace left in 1948 and then came back to New York in 1949.  Eventually, they will live in Hungary, but when did that begin?  After 1949 - 1950?

Emil and Amalia Gardos are on this list of names.

Yorkville is a neighborhood in the Upper East Side of Manhattan, New York City. Its southern boundary is East 79th Street, its northern East 96th Street, its western Third Avenue, and its eastern the East River. Yorkville is among the city's most affluent neighborhoods. The Yorkville area of New York has many Hungarian and Russian speaking people there.

79th Street was a hub for the Austro-Hungarian populace. Popular restaurants included the Viennese Lantern, Tokay, Hungarian Gardens, Robert Heller's Cafe Abazzia at 2nd Avenue, Budapest and the Debrechen.^[21] There were also a number of butcher stores and businesses that imported goods from Hungary. Churches included St. Stephen Catholic Church and the Hungarian Reformed Church on East 82nd Street. In addition, Czechs, Poles and Slovaks lived from 65th to 73rd Street. Besides Ruc, a Czech restaurant off Second Avenue, there were sokol halls on 67th and 71st Streets. There were other Czech and Slovak businesses, such as Czech butcher shops, poultry and grocery stores, and shops that sold imported goods such as Bohemian books, leather products and crystal.

Yorkville, NY is often called little Hungary.

Here is an interesting thought with little connection to reality at this point, but one that popped into my mind.  Assume John Gardos was Harvey Oswald.  Would he visit his old neighborhood when he stayed overnight in New York in the Spring of 1962.  This is idle speculation.

According to Spa Raikin it took two hours of travel from Hoboken, New Jersey to get to a cheap Hotel on Times Square.  The Times Square Hotel was a cheap hotel in those days.  I spent nights there several times during late 1966 to 1967.  I cost about $5.00 per night.  I guess you can get cheaper than that in those days.

Anyway, Harvey and Marina are staying in a cheap hotel on Times Square.  If Harvey was in reality John Gardos would he be tempted to return to his old neighborhood.  How far away would be his old home at 217 East 86 Street in Yorkville, NY?  The distance from Times Square to 217 East 86 Street is 2.6 miles.  The distance could be covered in a short period of time by cab or bus.

This is simply an idle speculation at this point. 

Spas Raikens two hour trip to from Hoboken to Times Square must have involved heavy traffic to take that much time.

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

Nice work John....

You got me excited about maybe finding the real Harvey...

I'll need to start over and reread the thread...  Here is an image from John's CD... Harvey.. NYC?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FWrxNBDwucVObPJwFAgOmfm4XuZA6p6X

 

[John Butler]

Thanks David,

I'm not certain, but that does look like Harvey.  I won't argue that it isn't.  The resemblance is to close.

I'm beginning to have problems with John Pic's testimony.  I have always believed that John Pic was an honest fellow.  I'll comment on that momentarily.

[John Butler]

One of the problems with John Gardos as Harvey Oswald is his language heritage.  Grace, his mother, spoke Americn English.  So, you would expect his primary language would be English.  Emil his father may have spoken both Hungarian and Russian since many Hungarian immigrants did.

Harvey and Lee speculates this:

“But she could have known HARVEY Oswald's father, who she said was from Hungary and lived near 77th& 2nd Avenue in Yorkville, where many eastern European refugees were then living. We should remember Dr. Renatus Hartog's description of HARVEY Oswald while at the Youth House. Hartogs said "he (13 year old HARVEY Oswald) had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps at the end of WWII."  

If HARVEY Oswald's father and uncle were from Hungary, it is likely that HARVEY Oswald's native language was Hungarian and/or Russian (after the Soviet Union annexed Eastern Block countries, those countries were required to teach the Russian language in all schools). This would explain HARVEY Oswald's proficiency in the Russian language, his ability to pass a Russian language exam at age 19, and his familiarity with communism.”

Emil and Grace Gardos were married in 1936.  John comes along in 1939.  I suppose that Grace could have learned Hungarian and Russian to more easily communicate with her husband.  Maybe John grew up in a household that spoke Hungarian, Russian, and English.  And, he definitely grew up in a area filled with Russian and Hungarian speakers.  Friends and early school children would all be dealing with language problems. 

Another problem is Marina said that Harvey’s accent was sort of Polish or Baltic state.  Would Hungarian sound that way?  Could it, a Hungarian accent, be confused with a Polish accent?

Another speculative condition might be did Emil and Grace take John to Hungary and because of the poor economic conditions and war time damage there send him back to America after a year of so in about 1952 into the loving arms of Margarite?  Could he have been the Hungarian waif that David Joseph's picture shows?  That's still a stretch.  There is still not enough evidence to say so.  But, wouldn't that be nice.

The mystery of Harvey Oswald background leads to speculation and that might be the best way to look for things to fill in that background.  Whether Little Hungary and the Gardos communists have anything to do with Harvey Oswald’s background is a big question.

Edited November 29, 2019 by John Butler

[Jake Hammond]

A little late to the topic I’m sorry, I have skimmed through so apologies if this has been mentioned already... 
 I am not familiar with the accents of 1950’s New Orleans residents but ... in his radio interview on the fair play for Cuba LHO has moments where his accent and sentence structure sound VERY much like that of German or Eastern European’s . Having a brother in Germany, Russian wife and having lived in London for ten years I have some experience here. 

 

[Steve Thomas]

5 hours ago, Jake Hammond said:

 I am not familiar with the accents of 1950’s New Orleans residents but ... in his radio interview on the fair play for Cuba LHO has moments where his accent and sentence structure sound VERY much like that of German or Eastern European’s . Having a brother in Germany, Russian wife and having lived in London for ten years I have some experience here. 

 

Jake,

 

Is it possible that Oswald may have been a by-the-Baltic Russian?

 

Steve Thomas

Edited November 30, 2019 by Steve Thomas

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Jake Hammond said:

A little late to the topic I’m sorry, I have skimmed through so apologies if this has been mentioned already... 
 I am not familiar with the accents of 1950’s New Orleans residents but ... in his radio interview on the fair play for Cuba LHO has moments where his accent and sentence structure sound VERY much like that of German or Eastern European’s . Having a brother in Germany, Russian wife and having lived in London for ten years I have some experience here. 

 

Jake,

A lot of people hear something in Harvey's voice other than a deep southern accent from Texas or Louisiana.  I guess he could have lost some of his accent when he was in New York for almost 2 years.  Oh, sorry, that was Lee.  I ask for forgiveness for that poor attempt at a joke. 

I had never paid attention to Marquerite's accents until someone pointed that out recently.  In the comments I just posted I speculated about languages and what could possibly be the source of Harvey's underlying accents.  I think I read in either pysch texts or some magazine that we are closest to our mothers and learn are language from are mothers.

That's why I mentioned John Gardos' primary language should have been English with no underlying accent.  However, he was reared in a household that may have spoken 3 languages.  He grew up in an multi-lingual area with Hungarian and Russian dominating.  If he learned 3 languages growing up then at times the other languages or accents should be noticeable from time to time.

I will give you an example from my family history.  My father's people were Scotch-Irish and have been in this country since at least the 1770s.  My mother's parents were immigrants and came to this country in the early 1900s.  If you met my mother you would have heard a strong, central KY, southern rural voice.  English was not her primary language.  Nor, was a southern accent was something she learned as a child.  My mother grew up just outside of Chicago in an immigrant family and had at one time a regional accent from that area.  You would not have known this by speaking to her in her later years.  My grandfather is reputed to speak 7 languages, but I don't think my grandmother ever learned to speak English.  That's why she was an alien immigrant all of her life with no naturalization papers.

I mention this to suggest there is a wide spectrum of language abilities and depending on one's ability to handle other languages.  Harvey's accents do not rule out that he was a native born citizen.  At, the same time it doesn't rule out that he was an immigrant brought to this country.      

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

John Pic and the mysterious Hungarian Parents

John Pic, the half-brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, joined the Coast Guard and was stationed in New York City in the early 1950s.  While there he, met and married Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman.  John Pic’s WC testimony has to say this when questioned by WC interrogator Albert Jenner:

“Mr. JENNER - Give the full name of your wife including her married name, children, if any, ages and names and where born.
Mr. PIC - My wife's maiden name is Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. My eldest is John Edward Pic, Jr., 14 May, 1952. My daughter, Janet Ann Pic, 18 October 1954; James Michael Pic, 22 February 1960.
Mr. JENNER - Your wife Margaret is--she was born where?
Mr. PIC - New York City, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Her parents are native Americans as well as she?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; they are not.
Mr. JENNER - What do you know of them?
Mr. PIC - Her father died; I never met the man while we were going together. Her mother and father were separated. Her mother was born in Hungary, I think. Her father was also, sir.
Mr. JENNER - What do you understand as to when they came to, this country?
Mr. PIC - I have never inquired. It has probably been mentioned but I have forgotten.
Mr. JENNER - Was it your impression they had been here a good many years?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; they have seven children. The eldest being in her forties, I am pretty sure.
Mr. JENNER - I see. When you met your wife she was living with her mother?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Where?
Mr. PIC - 325 East 92d Street, New York City.
Mr. JENNER - And you were at that time in the service?”

The address 325 East 92^nd Street will become interesting in a moment. 

I have read through John Pic’s testimony several times and have come away with the notion that John Pic was an honest fellow.  However, if you read the above testimony the names of the parents of Margaret Fuhrman Pic are not mentioned.  Did Jenner fail to ask what their names were by omission or commission?  And, is this important?  Later on, I ran across a few brief statements by John Pic that made me think Pic and Jenner were working off of a script.

“Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't make that statement. I make the statement that it is my definite recollection I was in the Infant Jesus College School while we lived in this house on Alvez. What months these were, sir, I don't know.”

“Mr. PIC - That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I able to communicate with him in any way."
Mr. JENNER - Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then give in your own words the facts.
Mr. PIC - Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider us the best of friends as far as older brother- younger brother relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite a bit of me.”

Jenner has a very detailed knowledge of John Pic and the Oswalds that he must have gotten from someone.  This has led me to question the credibility of John Pic and Albert Jenner.

Doing research on Margaret Pic, I ran across several family histories that mention Margaret Pic, but not her parents.  They were listed as unknown or private.  The only other information on Margaret’s parents come from her Social Security application.  This application lists her parents as Alexander S. Fuhrman and Mary Rieprecht.  This is verified by another daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish lists on her Social Security application as having the same parents.

Mrs. Emma Parrish is listed in John Pic’s WC testimony as living in Norfolk, VA.  And, Margaret’s mother is staying with her other daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish, when the Oswalds moved in on John Pic and wife in 1952.

There is a 1920 census record for Alexander and Mary Fuhrman.  It identifies them as being Magyar or Hungarian.  At the time, 1920, they are living in Kentucky and Fuhrman is working as time keeper at a coal mine.  This was probably in Harlan, KY.

There are no other records available for the parents of Margaret Fuhrman Pic. 

Of course, this kind of information leads to speculation if her parents were communists and folks were hiding that fact.  They lived in Little Hungary in Yorkville, NY.  Yorkville, NY had the largest concentration of Hungarian people living there outside of Hungary.  Many of these were communists. New York during he 1930s was the capital of the communist movement in the US.

 

And, I did the distance between Emil Gardo’s address and Mary Fuhrman’s address and came up with this:

.07 miles in a big area when considering New York.  I don’t know if this would constitute a neighborhood.  325 East 92 Street is at the upper end of Little Hungary in Yorkville, NY. 

If not a neighborhood then this would be a cultural area.  Still it would be hard to associate Gardos and Fuhrmans.  If the Fuhrmans had been communist an association might be easier to suggest through local events, organizations, and establishments.  Being communist might be what folks were hiding.

However, I found no evidence of the Fuhrman’s having any associations with communism.  In fact I have very little facts to report about the Fuhrmans.

Margaret’s missing Hungarian, or better information, on Margaret’s Hungarian parents leads one to question John Pic and Albert Jenner.  As detailed as the John Pic testimony was it suggests a practiced rehearsal for a public performance.   The name of Margaret’s parents should have been made known. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by John Butler

[Jake Hammond]

58 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Jake,

A lot of people hear something in Harvey's voice other than a deep southern accent from Texas or Louisiana.  I guess he could have lost some of his accent when he was in New York for almost 2 years.  Oh, sorry, that was Lee.  I ask for forgiveness for that poor attempt at a joke. 

I had never paid attention to Marquerite's accents until someone pointed that out recently.  In the comments I just posted I speculated about languages and what could possibly be the source of Harvey's underlying accents.  I think I read in either pysch texts or some magazine that we are closest to our mothers and learn are language from are mothers.

That's why I mentioned John Gardos' primary language should have been English with no underlying accent.  However, he was reared in a household that may have spoken 3 languages.  He grew up in an multi-lingual area with Hungarian and Russian dominating.  If he learned 3 languages growing up then at times the other languages or accents should be noticeable from time to time.

I will give you an example from my family history.  My father's people were Scotch-Irish and have been in this country since at least the 1770s.  My mother's parents were immigrants and came to this country in the early 1900s.  If you met my mother you would have heard a strong, central KY, southern rural voice.  English was not her primary language.  Nor, was a southern accent was something she learned as a child.  My mother grew up just outside of Chicago in an immigrant family and had at one time a regional accent from that area.  You would not have known this by speaking to her in her later years.  My grandfather is reputed to speak 7 languages, but I don't think my grandmother ever learned to speak English.  That's why she was an alien immigrant all of her life with no naturalization papers.

I mention this to suggest there is a wide spectrum of language abilities and depending on one's ability to handle other languages.  Harvey's accents do not rule out that he was a native born citizen.  At, the same time it doesn't rule out that he was an immigrant brought to this country.      

 

The YouTube video ‘ Lee Harvey Oswald on the radio / august 1963’ . There are lots of examples but 15m - 15.20 is a good one . This guy sounds like he is from a Eastern European country, or German. I know New Orleans have a strong accent but this doesn’t sound like that . He sounds eastern/ Baltic European 

[Jake Hammond]

9 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jake,

 

Is it possible that Oswald may have been a by-the=Baltic Russian?

 

Steve Thomas

To be honest from experience a true Russian is fairly easy to spot if they’re fresh off the boat but if they speak English well and are from anywhere in Eastern Europe it can be tricky. In addition the fact he had moved around and been abroad with Americans from all over would have twisted the accent too. In England we have always had players from all round the world come to play soccer and they end up with the most ridiculous accents ...  I must add too that I have lived and worked with many Eastern European’s and germans . And my brothers wife is Russian , I’m not an expert but probably have more experience than most . I do not have a good knowledge of 1950’s American accents however but have travelled America a fair bit and been to New Orleans . 

 For emphasis though, there are parts of his speech that I can’t believe are American born . 17m to 17.20 on the 'fairplay for cuba radio interview ' on YT is another passage of non American ness . I wouldn’t focus on the ‘ Baltic accent ‘ too much . I don’t trust Marina's input into LHO’s history myself. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Jake Hammond

[Steve Thomas]

19 minutes ago, Jake Hammond said:

The YouTube video ‘ Lee Harvey Oswald on the radio / august 1963’ . There are lots of examples but 15m - 15.20 is a good one . This guy sounds like he is from a Eastern European country, or German. I know New Orleans have a strong accent but this doesn’t sound like that . He sounds eastern/ Baltic European 

I jotted down some notes about the Baltic angle a while back. I haven't reached a conclusion, but the clues, to me, are tantalizing.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

WC testimony February 3, 1964

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first met him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

HSCA testimony 1977?

Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't. When he asked to dance, we just talked very little.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he tell you he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at that--not during the dancing, no.
Mr. McDONALD. At this time you were speaking in Russian together?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages.
Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States, you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they probably changed it to S-c-h-i- l-d-t. And it can also be written in Russian, at the same time.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, interchangeably.

 

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of the Baltic nobility.
Mr. JENNER. Through what source?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of Queen Christina

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

Mr. BOUHE - I never discussed a membership in any organization or hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."
And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of "duckys-duckys".
Mr. LIEBELER - He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to describe duck?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time to time?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you form an impression as to his command of that language?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was that impression?
Mr. BOUHE - A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language.

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?
Mr. BOUHE - I would say very good.
Mr. LIEBELER - You think he had a good command of the language, considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE - Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/raigorod.htm

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans.
Mr. JENNER. What is--by-the-Baltic Germans?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans and they were in the service of the Czar for generations and generations and were considered Russians. Most of them were barons, you know, and I don't know whether George's family were or not, but the "de" Mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title.
Mr. JENNER. That's the "de"?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The "de"---yes; it signifies that.

 

Etymology

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states

The term "Baltic" stems from the name of the Baltic Sea – a hydronym dating back to the 11th century (Adam of Bremen mentioned Latin: Mare Balticum) and earlier. Although there are several theories about its origin, most ultimately trace it to Indo-European root *bhel[4] meaning white, fair. This meaning is retained in modern Baltic languages, where baltas (in Lithuanian) and balts (in Latvian) mean "white".[5] However the modern names of the region and the sea, that originate from this root, were not used in either of the two languages prior to the 19th century.[6]

Since the Middle Ages, the Baltic Sea has appeared on maps in Germanic languages as the equivalent of "East Sea": German: Ostsee, Danish: Østersøen, Dutch: Oostzee, Swedish: Östersjön, etc. Indeed, the Baltic Sea mostly lies to the east of Germany, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. The term was historically also used to refer to Baltic Dominions of the Swedish Empire (Swedish: Östersjöprovinserna) and, subsequently, the Baltic governorates of the Russian Empire (Russian: Остзейские губернии, romanized: Ostzejskie gubernii).[6] The terms related to modern name "Baltic" appear in ancient texts, but had fallen in disuse until reappearing as the adjective "Baltisch" in German, from which it was adopted in other languages.[7] During the 19th century, "Baltic" started to supersede "Ostsee" as the name for the region. Officially, its Russian equivalent "Прибалтийский" ("Pribaltiyskiy") was first used in 1859.[6] This change was a result of the Baltic German elite adopting terms derived from the stem "Baltic" to refer to themselves.[7][8]

The term "Baltic states" was, until the early 20th century, used in the context of countries neighboring the Baltic Sea: Sweden and Denmark, sometimes also Germany and the Russian Empire. With the advent of Foreningen Norden (the Nordic Associations), the term was no longer used for Sweden and Denmark.[9][10] After World War I, the new sovereign states that emerged on the east coast of the Baltic Sea – Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and during the Interwar period, Finland – became known as the "Baltic states".[7]

 

Posted in the Education Forum by Jack White April 2, 2010

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/15686-did-harvey-return-from-russia/page/3/

 

“I am still doing comparisons of the Russian LHO with the Dallas LHO. Some depict the same person, some do not. The point is...we do not really know what the variety of LHOs in Russia represents...a substitute or doctored photos, or both. But the photos show something suspicious was going on. This leaves us to wonder...did the fake defector Harvey return to the US, or was a Russian impostor substituted for the US impostor?

Jack”

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

HSCA testimony 1977?

Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't. When he asked to dance, we just talked very little.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he tell you he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at that--not during the dancing, no.
Mr. McDONALD. At this time you were speaking in Russian together?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages.
Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.

 

Remember, though, that Marina may have been trying to hide her fluency in English at around the time she met "Oswald" in the USSR.  Robert Wesbster, the Rand Corporation worker who "defected" to Russia about the same time as "Oswald," told Dick Russell in a 1997 interview that when he (Webster) met Marina in Russia, they spoke together in English for hours.  Webster said Marina spoke English well but had a heavy accent.  I can't prove it, but my bet is that Marina and "Oswald" spoke English, at least during their earliest meetings.  Harvey Oswald tried to hide his command of Russian from most of the people he met in Moscow and Minsk. 

What convoluted tales our protagonists told!

[Jim Hargrove]

On 11/25/2019 at 8:27 AM, Paul Jolliffe said:

However, there are two powerful counterarguments, and they both involve the behavior of the FBI:

1. In 1963, when Mrs. Jack Tippit reported her mysterious conversation with the unknown woman to the FBI, the FBI would have known instantly to whom the woman referred!

By 1963, Emil Gardos and Fred Bassett Blair had "commie" files a mile thick at the FBI! The FBI knew damn well exactly who the woman meant!

Instead, the FBI deliberately garbled the names - Emil Gardos became "Emile Kardos" (with a very suspicious and prominent handwritten asterisk right over the name!), the longtime FBI target Fred Blair was reduced to anonymity, and the longtime editor of the "Worker's World" (Louis Weinstock, another FBI target) became the more nebulous FNU Weinstock of a nonexistent publication, "Woman's World".

(The FBI's outrageous history of purposely obscuring sensitive names and information has a long, fine tradition, so much so that Harold Weisberg insisted 50 years ago that one needed a special dictionary to translate "FBI-ese.")

Therefore, I find it impossible to believe the FBI's seeming incompetence about identifying the two men mentioned the in phone call was genuine. They pretended they did not know to whom the woman referred.

2. The FBI report about Mrs. Jack Tippit's conversation with the mysterious woman caller was suppressed until 1993 - the HSCA in the 1970's had it, but it was not until the ARRB released it that we got to see it.

http://harveyandlee.net/Harvey Who/Tippit-FBI_Graphical.htm

If this was really a simple case of mistaken identity in 1963, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD BOTH THE WARREN COMMISSION AND THE HSCA HAVE HIDDEN IT FOR DECADES?

No, the fact this report was suppressed tells us there is something sensitive here. It does not tell us that "Oswald" was truly the biological son of either Gardos or Blair, merely that the woman caller apparently thought so. 

But it does tell us that young "Oswald" probably had some kind of Yorkville connection to these men, however brief, a connection that was noted and remembered by this mysterious caller. 

Now that the break between holidays is giving us a little free time again, I was just wondering if we had done everything possible to eliminate John Gardos, son of the Communist activists Emil and Grace Gardos, as a candidate for the Russian-speaking “Oswald.”

John B. points out that John Gardos is not listed as a resident of the Ironwood (Michigan) household of Emil and Grace Gardos in the 1940 Census, and he should have been.  However, I have found a separate listing in the same census for John:

Here’s the full 1940 census data on John Gardos:

John Gardos
United States Federal Census, 1940

Name: John Gardos
Census Year: 1940
Gender: Male
Age: 1
Marital Status: Single
Race: White
Relationship: Son
Father: Emil Gardos
Mother: Grace Gardos
Residence: Ironwood, Ironwood City, Gogebic, Michigan, United States
Birthplace: Michigan
Birth Year: 1939

Gogebic County is the westernmost county in the Upper Peninsula in the U.S. state of Michigan. As of the 2010 census, the population was 16,427. Ironwood is a city in Gogebic County in the U.S. state of Michigan, about 18 miles south of Lake Superior. The population was 5,387 at the 2010 census. It is the westernmost city in Michigan.

For a fellow like Emil Gardos, active in places like New York City, Chicago and Milwaukee, tiny Ironwood, MI must have seemed remarkably rural.

Just for convenient reference, here are excerpts from the 11/30/1963 FBI internal teletype describing the report from Mr. and Mrs. Jack D. Tippit about the phone call they received from the anonymous woman caller who they believed spoke with a foreign accent:

THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.

THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW.

According to the Milwaukee Journal, Mar 20, 1949, p. 3: John’s father Emil was “Born in Hungary… had come to the United States in 1922.  He had lived for a time in New York and in New Jersey before moving to the midwest…. He was naturalized in New York June 28, 1928….  When Gardos was first cited for denaturalization in 1932, he was educational director of the Communist party in Chicago.  He had previously been an organizer in Milwaukee and had run in the 1932 elections, claiming Milwaukee as his legal residence.”

A number of newspaper articles, including the March 7, 1936 Cleveland Plain Dealer, indicate that the “immigration and naturalization service of the Department of Labor” ordered that Emil Gardos “must be deported to Roumania, whose territories include Gardos’ birthplace, formerly in Hungary,” or “to any country of his choice” if he “wishes to depart voluntarily….” 

The Cleveland Plain Dealer and several other papers reported he was ordered out of the country in March 1936.  John B. found a Congressional Record reporting him ordered to leave (again) in April 1948.  And yet in 1949 he apparently had an address on Eighty-sixth St. in New York. Was there more to Emil Gardos than meets the eye?

In his letter to the Milwaukee Sentinel published in the November 19, 1976 edition (p. 22), Emil’s uncle Fred Blair wrote “I have just received a postcard from my sister, Grace Blair Gardos, and her husband, Emil Gardos, who have lived in Budapest the past 28 years….” 

As John Kowalski pointed out,  if John Gardos was “Harvey, then there should be no evidence that he was alive after Harvey's murder by Jack Ruby on November 24 1963.” Just before Thanksgiving, I did a search on  a genealogy and newspaper database and found nothing for our “John Gardos” after 1963.

The most likely explanation for all this is that John followed his parents Emile and Grace to Budapest or thereabouts, probably in the late 1940s, but to study this  more would require access to European databases.  Anyone have any ideas about where to go from here?