Curtain rods revisited

[Mark Knight]

The curtain rods to which I refer have a rounded 90-degree bend at each end, to provide a 2" "standoff" from the window facing for the curtain. They hook into a bracket on the window facing. That would make a 5"-6" wide bag make sense. When i was a youngster, before the days of Wal-Mart, dime stores and hardware stores carred these narrow brown paper bags in various lengths. Think of the brown paper bag a liquor store might place a single bottle of wine into, only longer.

Now, I'm NOT trying to say whether Oswald did or did not carry such a bag to Wes Frazier's car or into the TSBD.  I really haven't decided what's true about that. I simply want to show that it's indeed POSSIBLE for the story that Frazier told to be true. Of course, it's also possibly a fabrication meant to get Frazier "off the hook" with the police.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Whatever type of alleged curtain rods were in the package carried by Lee Oswald in the style described by Buell Wesley Frazier, the package could not be longer than 21 inches. The mannequin has body proportions of Lee Harvey Oswald and carried a package 21'' x 5 '' with one end stuck in the arm pit and the other end in the cupped hand. Lee Oswald wore a blue jacket over his shirt on Friday morning which could reduce the length of the package even more. Thus, 21'' appears to be the longest possible length for the curtain rods package.

 

Why would anyone call this package long? "Elongated" could be a fair description but "long" would hardly be appropriate.  

This package would could not contain a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle as stipulated by the Warren Commission. This package could not reach almost to the ground if carried by grasping it below the top of the package as claimed by Mrs Linnie Mae Randle. This package, albeit oversized, could hold a lunch (sandwiches and an apple) and could still be carried  as described by Mr Frazier if  the paper would be heavy and stiff.

 

 

 

[Tony Rose]

I'd like to throw Ralph Leon Yates' hitchhiker into this mix.

[Ron Bulman]

On 12/17/2019 at 2:24 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

Curtain rods became a mantra in JFK assassination research. Mr Frazier claimed he had witnessed Lee Oswald bringing a paper bag 27-28 inches tall and 5-6 inches wide and made from a brown paper, allegedly a grocery type of bag (were those bags only 5-6 inches wide?). Let us examine the details.

If Lee planned to bring curtain rods for his rooming house, they needed to be of particular length and number. The pictures below show that Lee Oswald's room had three windows of equal widths. There would be three curtain rods, each for one window, and a very long rod spanning the whole length of the room. Lee Oswald supposedly brought only the short curtain rods, and there would then be three of them. Curtain rods are made of light materials (although there can be vintage, old-fashion rods made from solid metal, e.g., bronze). Three rods, this is what Lee needed to bring.

Let us examine the length of the rods. Of course, a curtain rod needs to be long enough to cover the whole width of a window. Curtain rods are of the same length as the window width or an inch or two longer. Using the photographs of Lee Oswald's room and the bed as a meter, it is possible to estimate the window width without measuring it directly. Two windows and one vertical frame panel and one edge were of the same length as the bed in Lee Oswald's room. A standard length of a bed in the USA is 75 inches (190 cm). After subtracting 20 cm (vertical frame panel) and 10 cm (wooden edge) would give the width of two windows of 160 cm and one window 80 cm = 31.5 inches. Thus, if Lee needed curtain rods, the rods would need to be about 32 inches long to fit his windows. 

A curtain rod has a diameter of about 2 cm (4/5 of an inch) and Lee needed only 3 curtain rods. It is not clear why would Lee use a bag which would be shorter that the curtain rods, from which the curtain rods would stick out and which would be too wide for three curtain rods. Lee would have to wrap the paper bag around the three rods but then the bag would not be 5-6 inches wide, it would be less that 3 inches wide, and it would be a light package.

How credible is the curtain rod story in the light of this simple analysis?

 

With all due respect for your work Andrej Imho the curtain rods story is horse crap.  I think it was made up to provide cover.  By who I don't know.  The first picture shows the curtain rod to the left does need replacing.  But it's a tiny room with a bed and a dresser, a place to sleep.  Occupied for a month, likely not intended as a long term residence.  Who would make that effort, take that time?  An itinerant ex marine who went to Russia now separated from the Russian wife he brought home?  

Did he really while visiting Marina mention the bent curtain rod in his room and Ruth Paine mention I have some extra curtain rods in the garage?  Where the gun she didn't remember transporting from New Orleans was supposedly hidden?  

I personally don't think the gun was hidden there, nor did he wrap up curtain rods in the dark of the night unbeknownst  to Ruth or Marina.

Further I don't think young Wesley made up or dreamed up the story on his own.  So who did, and who fed it to him?  After the fact.

Why would he need curtain rodS to fix the problem in the picture?  The one to the right looks fine.  The one on the right likely at a maximum or 36 - 48" would telescope down to 18-24".  Why on earth would someone wrap in paper one 18-24" curtain rod?  For a 10 mile trip on a back seat.  In an older car with a bad battery?  If it's important in assassinating the president?

Edited December 31, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Andrej Stancak]

Ron:

while I tend to leave a grain of uncertainty in my posts (unfortunately, almost nothing is certain in JFK assassination case), this thread leads to the refuting of the curtain rods story. I wanted to know whether it was physically possible to carry a package 27-28'' long in the style described by Buell Wesley Frazier and whether such package could contain curtain rods. As far as the former question is concerned, the length of the package could not exceed 21'' (possibly 22'' if the hand posture would change to resting the rifle but on extended fingers). This length is much shorter than the length indicated by both Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Mrs Randle even initially described the package as 3' long , then 27-28.5''. The package was allegedly long enough to almost touch the ground if held a few inches below the top of the package. It had allegedly a bulky end, similar to a rifle butt. Mrs Randle wanted to pin a long package shaped as a rifle to Lee Oswald. Her brother, however, did not mention a long package with a bulky end. It would be a thin package (21-22'') which would rest on the palm or fingers of his right hand and fit the space between his extended arm and his trunk. Such a package could contain three thin curtain rods; especially the telescoping curtain rods are thin and hollow. I agree that such curtain rods would not necessitate any bag made from a heavy brown paper but we cannot exclude this possibility either. A thin package carried under the extended arm and covered by a blue jacket would likely escape attention of any observer and it is therefore would not be surprising that no one had seen Lee Oswald carrying a bag on that morning. Only, such a bag could not contain a rifle.

I am not sure if I have cast any light on the subject and certainly would not like to contribute to the overall mess surrounding the curtain rods story. It is unlikely that Lee's rented room required any curtain rods - why would he suddenly felt curtain rods are needed of he lived in that room for some 6-7 weeks already and had a chance to fix the problem much earlier. It is unlikely that the room would be offered for renting without  having the curtain rods in place. However, here I can only speculate; the physical aspects of the package are much more important than speculations.

If I may phrase my conjecture, it is possible that Buell Wesley Frazier witnessed Lee Oswald's carrying a rifle to the Depository on a different day than November 22. These two lads may have even discussed the rifle and the purpose of  bringing the rifle to the building. When the shots rang out, Buell Wesley Frazier while standing on the top step, realised that the rifle could have been used in the shooting and that he (Frazier) could be associated with the shooting. To avoid any possibility of being accused, he started to think how to dissociate himself from the rifle. He went to the basement to gain some time and to hide himself but he said he has wanted to have his lunch. Buell Wesley Frazier was a young boy, a teenager, and not having many life experiences. However, he worked in a department store and knew how curtain rods could be packed and how long they could be. He travelled to Irving to meet his sister as soon as possible to discuss the curtain rods story and to unify their testimonies. Mrs Randle did not follow the script correctly and mentioned a long package with a bulky end, not the package which Buell Wesley Frazier had described.

I am not sure why Buell Wesley Frazier claimed the package being carried on November 22 if he saw a package with a rifle in Lee's possession on a different day. They could have denied ever seeing a package on Lee Oswald and it would be difficult to disprove their lack of memories. Many questions still remain to be answers and it feels a bit disappointing that Mr Frazier did not find the courage to speak truth. As per package itself, I believe that Lee carried a slightly oversized grocery bag in which he had his lunch. He could carry it cupped in the palm of his right hand. Thus, Mr Frazier only extended the length of the package to reach the armpit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

Postal Inspector Holmes took part in the last interrogation of Lee Oswald and this is how he had recalled Lee's rebuttal of the curtain rods story:

 

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone question him about curtain rods, that you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What was that about curtain rods?

Mr. HOLMES. Asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the ear with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, “Yes.” “What was in the sack?” “Well, my lunch.”

“What size sack did you have?” He said, “Oh, I don’t know what size sack. You don’t always get a sack that fits your sandwiches. It might be a big sack.”

“Was it a long sack?” “Well, it could have been.”

“What did you do with it?” “Carried it in my lap.”

“You didn’t put it over in the back seat?” “No.”

He said he wouldn’t have done that.

“Well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at work and you laid it over on the back seat.”

He said, “Well, they was just mistaken. That must have been some other time he picked me up.” That is all he said about it.

The statement "That must have been some other time he picked me up" jibes with what Buell Wesley Frazier told the HSCA, namely that he (Frazier) knew that Lee Oswald had brought the rifle to the Depository on a different day. If I remember correctly, Pat Speer also heard Mr Frazier saying that Lee Oswald could have brought the rifle on a different day.  Thus, there is a reasonable substantiation for the possibility that Lee Oswald brought a rifle to the Depository at some point before November 22. Mr Frazier could have even asked about the content of the package which clearly contained a rifle and Lee could jokingly say that there ain't any rifle in the package, just curtain rods for his rented room. 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Ron Ecker]

One thing we know for sure is that whoever handled Ruby ordered curtains for Oswald.

 

 

[David Andrews]

7 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

One thing we know for sure is that whoever handled Ruby ordered curtains for Oswald.

 

 

"The stakes were never higher!"  -- Vlad the Impaler

HAPPY NEW YEAR, ALL