The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[W. Niederhut]

40 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

William, Sorry I'm new to this format, please go back to my Prior Post and Open it up I responded back to your.. letter. 

 

"As for the casualties, do you have any idea how many Afghans we killed since Rumsfeld started carpet bombing that country in 2001?" For a second tim, can't answer the question, huh.. 

Mathew,

     I found your previous post.  No, I'm not a Boulder guy.  Never was.  I have lived in Denver for 65 years, other than eight years in New England in college and med school (Brown and Harvard.)  Graduated from Denver East HS in '75.

    And, no, I don't think or speak in cliches.  Nor do I repeat other people's "talking points."  Not my style.

    I have always been in the habit of formulating and expressing my own thoughts.  When I quote other people, I say so.

    As for Douglas County, your area, I have noticed that it typically votes about 70% Republican 30% Democrat (e.g., Bush, McCain, Romney, Trump, etc.)  Denver County is the diametric opposite politically-- 70% Democrat 30% Republican (Gore, Kerry, Obama, Hillary, etc.)

[Matthew Koch]

Willam did you listen to the song its pretty good! 
Btw I used to live in Capital Hill Denver from 2003-2014 before it was gentrified by Hillary Clinton Voters.
Too bad everyone moved here, because had they stayed in the Midwest and Rust Belt Trump would not have won. I wonder what here foreign policy would have been towards Russia, probably similar to Victoria Nuland and Joe Biden ; )

BTW, You seem to be doing the same thing you accuse Ben of, Which is not answering damaging questions...

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Hi Ben,

I am a new member here and I wanted to comment on your pipeline who did it thread, but the Mods didn't like it, so I'm picking the topic up here.

The same crowd that was responsible for the creating the Sniper Attack and Coup de Tat in Ukraine in '14, seems to be emerging as prime suspects in the sabotage aka Victoria Newland and President Brandon. Nuland and Biden both made statements similar to Obama's redline speech where a prediction was made, and later happened.

  Take it with a grain of salt until it is confirmed. But people in the "Dark Web" noticed that around the same time of the pipeline sabotage an unmarked plane was flying in the area and refueled in Germany. People suspect that it was Boeing P-8 Poseidon.

-I will add There is a picture of Putin in a mini sub, so he obviously can't be ruled out!

-In before Kirk, Matt, Steve or Doug point out that fact..

Matthew Koch:

Welcome to the EF, and a forum is place for various viewpoints, and should not be a cocooned echo chamber, or a place for denigrating those with a different points of view. 

Well, given that President Biden (in public, on camera) vowed to wreck the Nordstream 2 pipeline if Russia invaded Ukraine...and Russia has now invaded...yes, it is odds-on that the US sabotaged the pipeline. Also, the upside for Russia in destroying its own pipeline...well, not really in the zone. 

BTW, I am not Putin-fan, and hope he is removed from office, although the odds of that appear rather slim.  To me, even if there is context, Putin's war in Ukraine was and is volitional, and cruel. One could just as well justify Bush's wars in the Mideast. 

It may turn out that Putin's war, like Bush's wars, will turn out to be fantastically expensive and counterproductive for Russia.

I suspect there will not be a quick and easy war in the Ukraine, for either side. 

It is curious that Putin invaded Crimea when Obama was president, and Ukraine when Biden was president. 

It may be that Trump's quirky, unconventional brand of personal diplomacy (meetings as equals with Kim Jong-un, Putin, Saudis, Xi) was effective in a sense. Those leaders felt they had been paid homage to.

Some say it was actually Trump who got the US out of Afcrapistan. If true, kudos for Trump. 

I agree, Biden's approval of drone-strike that killed an innocent family of ten in Kabul was horrible. Trump approved similar drone strikes in Yemen early in his presidency, that killed bunches of Yemeni women (14, I think).

Keep posting. I look forward to your views. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

Willam did you listen to the song its pretty good! 
Btw I used to live in Capital Hill Denver from 2003-2014 before it was gentrified by Hillary Clinton Voters.
Too bad everyone moved here, because had they stayed in the Midwest and Rust Belt Trump would not have won. I wonder what here foreign policy would have been towards Russia, probably similar to Victoria Nuland and Joe Biden ; )

BTW, You seem to be doing the same thing you accuse Ben of, Which is not answering damaging questions...

False equivalence. 

I never dodge relevant, meaningful questions around here.

And your silly question about the last few days of our 20 year war in Afghanistan is only damaging to you-- displaying your myopic understanding of that 20 year U.S. foreign policy debacle-- as covered by Fox News at the war's end.

The surrender of the Afghan Army began after Trump and Pompeo surrendered to the Taliban at Doha in February of 2020.  The writing was on the wall.  Then Trump withdrew all but 2,500 troops from a country of 40 million people prior to Biden's Inauguration.  Biden shares some of the blame for not realizing that Trump had set the Afghan government and army up for a major collapse, but I would place the lion's share of the blame on the Joint Chiefs and military intelligence-- that perennial oxymoron.

And let's not forget that Trump, Tillerson, and Pompeo had gutted the U.S. State Department after 2016.  Qualified diplomats left in droves.

As for Russia, hopefully, you, Tucker Carlson, and Ben can eventually clarify whether you believe that Biden has been a spineless Neville Chamberlain or an overly belligerent Winston Churchill in responding to Putin's brutal invasion of Ukraine this year.  

Ben has argued both, contrary, positions this year, and I notice that many Trumplicons from the MAGA-verse, including you, now seem to believe that Trump would have been a highly "effective" Neville Chamberlain in this Ukrainian crisis-- presumably giving us "peace in our day" by allowing Putin to invade and annex a sovereign nation without resistance.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Mark Knight]

40 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

False equivalence. 

I never dodge relevant, meaningful questions around here.

And your silly question about the last few days of our 20 year war in Afghanistan is only damaging to you-- displaying your myopic understanding of that 20 year U.S. foreign policy debacle-- as covered by Fox News at the war's end.

The surrender of the Afghan Army began after Trump and Pompeo surrendered to the Taliban at Doha in February of 2020.  The writing was on the wall.  Then Trump withdrew all but 2,500 troops from a country of 40 million people prior to Biden's Inauguration.  Biden shares some of the blame for not realizing that Trump had set the Afghan government and army up for a major collapse, but I would place the lion's share of the blame on the Joint Chiefs and military intelligence-- that perennial oxymoron.

And let's not forget that Trump, Tillerson, and Pompeo had gutted the U.S. State Department after 2016.  Qualified diplomats left in droves.

As for Russia, hopefully, you, Tucker Carlson, and Ben can eventually clarify whether you believe that Biden has been a spineless Neville Chamberlain or an overly belligerent Winston Churchill in responding to Putin's brutal invasion of Ukraine this year.  

Ben has argued both, contrary, positions this year, and I notice that many Trumplicons from the MAGA-verse, including you, now seem to believe that Trump would have been a highly "effective" Neville Chamberlain in this Ukrainian crisis-- presumably giving us "peace in our day" by allowing Putin to invade and annex a sovereign nation without resistance.

 

 

Well said.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Yes well done W.!

Wow!, I just came in here as if entering Matthew's space ship!

Matthew I can tell by your self portrait that you fathom yourself as an illuminating presence, and were probably a big childhood fan of ET, the movie?

Is this indicative of your social skills at introducing yourself to everyone you meet?

[Matthew Koch]

William was Trump President for 20years?  (I'm currently making the Tucker Carlson question face)
Or was most of that war managed under Obama and Biden. And also Bush and Cheney who are NeoCon Never Trumpers? 
You are right about False Equivalence.. in that sense for sure! 

Trump made the right decision to get out, if people had fallen off of airplanes under his watch, allowed troops to be killed and responded by killing an aid worker and his family. I would be as critical as you guys with your TDS bias would be. But it happened under Biden and like JFK said "The President  is the responsible officer of the government."

I think Biden is compromised by his son and I don't think anyone would have invaded Ukraine if we didn't impeached Trump over the CIA whistle blower and instead investigated Hunter Biden. I think a lot less people would have died and a lot more of our tax dollars would still be here. 

[Matt Allison]

5 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

William, Sorry I'm new to this format,

New to a format of pushback when posting stale and asinine MAGA tropes?

Free advice: Move on with your life.

[Matthew Koch]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Matthew Koch:

Welcome to the EF, and a forum is place for various viewpoints, and should not be a cocooned echo chamber, or a place for denigrating those with a different points of view. 

Well, given that President Biden (in public, on camera) vowed to wreck the Nordstream 2 pipeline if Russia invaded Ukraine...and Russia has now invaded...yes, it is odds-on that the US sabotaged the pipeline. Also, the upside for Russia in destroying its own pipeline...well, not really in the zone. 

BTW, I am not Putin-fan, and hope he is removed from office, although the odds of that appear rather slim.  To me, even if there is context, Putin's war in Ukraine was and is volitional, and cruel. One could just as well justify Bush's wars in the Mideast. 

 

 

 

Ben, I am a reluctant Putin fan.

I understand he's not a good guy. I am anti NWO and it is pretty obvious the NWO Deep State is very anti Russia. So, I like how he stands up to them. Also, I really enjoyed how Putin was out played Obama in Syria when he sent the Russian Army to blow up the Al Queda and Isis terrorists "Rebels" the CIA was arming in Syria. I thought that was pretty hilarious to do that and because W Bush declared war on Al Queada and Terrorism they couldn't do anything about it. And then they took John Kerry's gaffe about destroying the Chemical Weapons arsenal and got the US to agree to not invade if the outdated chemical weapons were destroyed. And they did it to basically show that the rocket in the chemical attack came from the rebels, that was also pretty awesome also!  Also Knowing the history in Ukraine in real time during the sniper attack that cause the coup de tat of the Russian back Ukrainian president. I have supported the Russians in the conflict since then. Remember there was a passenger plane that was shot down in an attempt to create an international incident and make war with Russia.

Then the Zelensky regime took over and backed the Azov Nazis in the war against the Dombas region of ethnic Russians. Fast forward to present day conflict where Zelensky was making provocative moves against Russia national security by saying they were wiling to host Nuclear missiles that would be too close to intercept thus making Russia susceptible to a first strike.Russia responded similar to what America did in the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Like Chris Rock famously said about OJ " Now I'm not saying he should have killed her.. but, I understand." and in this case I understand Russia. I wouldn't let someone point a gun at me I would stop them.  I wish there was not war. But from the Russian viewpoint this is a righteous war and Putin has like 85% approval in Russia. My friends wife is from Russia and she confirmed for me.

 Biden should have told Zelensky to behave but probably can't, do to Hunter. Had Biden not intervened by sending aid, the way Russia ran the beginning of the war with surgical strikes on the military. Knocking out the Air force day one sparing civilian infrastructure. Ukraine could have Surrendered and negotiated they probably would have ceded the Dombas region and the conflict would have ended. Now they will lose a lot more land and people and may end up starting WWIII. Which oddly seems to be okay with people who believe that Putin stole the 2016 election via memes on Facebook. lol 

[Matthew Koch]

1 minute ago, Matt Allison said:

New to a format of pushback when posting stale and asinine MAGA tropes?

Free advice: Move on with your life.

Thanks for the advise Matt! I like Ben, so I think I'll hang out a while longer. 
Matt Do you believe like William stated he does that Putin actually colluded with Trump and Stole the 2016 election? 

[Benjamin Cole]

53 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

Ben, I am a reluctant Putin fan.

I understand he's not a good guy. I am anti NWO and it is pretty obvious the NWO Deep State is very anti Russia. So, I like how he stands up to them. Also, I really enjoyed how Putin was out played Obama in Syria when he sent the Russian Army to blow up the Al Queda and Isis terrorists "Rebels" the CIA was arming in Syria. I thought that was pretty hilarious to do that and because W Bush declared war on Al Queada and Terrorism they couldn't do anything about it. And then they took John Kerry's gaffe about destroying the Chemical Weapons arsenal and got the US to agree to not invade if the outdated chemical weapons were destroyed. And they did it to basically show that the rocket in the chemical attack came from the rebels, that was also pretty awesome also!  Also Knowing the history in Ukraine in real time during the sniper attack that cause the coup de tat of the Russian back Ukrainian president. I have supported the Russians in the conflict since then. Remember there was a passenger plane that was shot down in an attempt to create an international incident and make war with Russia.

Then the Zelensky regime took over and backed the Azov Nazis in the war against the Dombas region of ethnic Russians. Fast forward to present day conflict where Zelensky was making provocative moves against Russia national security by saying they were wiling to host Nuclear missiles that would be too close to intercept thus making Russia susceptible to a first strike.Russia responded similar to what America did in the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Like Chris Rock famously said about OJ " Now I'm not saying he should have killed her.. but, I understand." and in this case I understand Russia. I wouldn't let someone point a gun at me I would stop them.  I wish there was not war. But from the Russian viewpoint this is a righteous war and Putin has like 85% approval in Russia. My friends wife is from Russia and she confirmed for me.

 Biden should have told Zelensky to behave but probably can't, do to Hunter. Had Biden not intervened by sending aid, the way Russia ran the beginning of the war with surgical strikes on the military. Knocking out the Air force day one sparing civilian infrastructure. Ukraine could have Surrendered and negotiated they probably would have ceded the Dombas region and the conflict would have ended. Now they will lose a lot more land and people and may end up starting WWIII. Which oddly seems to be okay with people who believe that Putin stole the 2016 election via memes on Facebook. lol 

Matt--

Well, we certainly disagree on Putin, and so be it. A volitional war, whether by Bush jr. or Putin, is a crime against humanity. 

I am not surprised that there might be a lot of popular support for Putin inside Russia. Wars do that, and the Russians are fighting a war on their own border.  Russia is a nation invaded from the East a few times, with horrific consequences. 

If I had to bet, I would bet Putin will lose in Ukraine, but only after thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands have been killed or maimed, and ocean cargo carriers of money wasted. 

A fantastically expensive, counterproductive war, in other words. As an American, I have become expert at watching such wars. But maybe an armistice can be reached, and Putin will keep the eastern Ukrainian borderlands. 

All along, Biden has seemed adrift, behind the curve, unable to counter Putin.  Maybe NATO will wake up. The Poles seem tough. Contrary to what you have read, I have consistently opposed the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Asking whether Biden or the CIA is running the show is a legitimate question. Also, concern abut mission creep is legitimate. Is this war to preserve Ukraine, or has it morphed into a regime change operation on Moscow? Biden was waffled on that. 

Keep posting. Some people take proprietary posture regarding this forum, but I regard it as open to all. In general, dogmatic partisan sentiments can become hardened beyond reason. 

PS--Yes, it is a crime to say the 2020 election was stolen, but OK to say Putin stole the 2016 election, and the 2004 election was stolen by Bushie absentee ballots in Ohio (the latter charge probably true, btw). 

Also, in 2018 the NYT ran a cover story on their magazine that due to vulnerable voting machines, the mid-terms faced a "security crisis." 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/26/magazine/election-security-crisis-midterms.html

By 2020, poof! Crisis solved! 

In truth, the US lacks the forensic resources to monitor elections.

It is like asking detectives to again visit the apartment where a guy was murdered, but the detectives have no fingerprint kits, magnifying glasses, DNA testers, cannot conduct an autopsy, and so on.

The guy is dead in his apartment but maybe nothing happened. 

[Kirk Gallaway]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Matt--

Well, we certainly disagree on Putin, and so be it. A volitional war, whether by Bush jr. or Putin, is a crime against humanity. 

I am not surprised that there might be a lot of popular support for Putin inside Russia. Wars do that, and the Russians are fighting a war on their own border.  Russia is a nation invaded from the East a few times, with horrific consequences. 

If I had to bet, I would bet Putin will lose in Ukraine, but only after thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands have been killed or maimed, and ocean cargo carriers of money wasted. 

A fantastically expensive, counterproductive war, in other words. As an American, I have become expert at watching such wars. But maybe an armistice can be reached, and Putin will keep the eastern Ukrainian borderlands. 

All along, Biden has seemed adrift, behind the curve, unable to counter Putin.  Maybe NATO will wake up. The Poles seem tough. Contrary to what you have read, I have consistently opposed the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Asking whether Biden or the CIA is running the show is a legitimate question. Also, concern abut mission creep is legitimate. Is this war to preserve Ukraine, or has it morphed into a regime change operation on Moscow? Biden was waffled on that. 

Keep posting. Some people take proprietary posture regarding this forum, but I regard it as open to all. In general, dogmatic partisan sentiments can become hardened beyond reason. 

PS--Yes, it is a crime to say the 2020 election was stolen, but OK to say Putin stole the 2016 election, and the 2004 election was stolen by Bushie absentee ballots in Ohio (the latter charge probably true, btw). 

Also, in 2018 the NYT ran a cover story on their magazine that due to vulnerable voting machines, the mid-terms faced a "security crisis." 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/26/magazine/election-security-crisis-midterms.html

By 2020, poof! Crisis solved! 

In truth, the US lacks the forensic resources to monitor elections.

It is like asking detectives to again visit the apartment where a guy was murdered, but the detectives have no fingerprint kits, magnifying glasses, DNA testers, cannot conduct an autopsy, and so on.

The guy is dead in his apartment but maybe nothing happened. 

OK, Just to show  we don't always disagree.In your first 4 paragraphs (or sentences) I'm largely in agreement.

Ben:All along, Biden has seemed adrift, behind the curve, unable to counter Putin.  Maybe NATO will wake up.

No he just doesn't mouth off like you, and why should he? I assume you're not much of a poker player.

Ben: Maybe NATO will wake up.      No, just the opposite,it's nato that would crack.

Ben:Also, concern abut mission creep is legitimate. Is this war to preserve Ukraine, or has it morphed into a regime change operation on Moscow? Biden was waffled on that. 

Is that Biden "was" waffled or "has" waffled on that? To use the correct term, I assume you mean "has". And Biden hasn't. Since he hasn't committed American troops, he's under no obligation to state any goals, than for Russia to get out of Ukraine.And publicly stating a goal of regime change would be stupid and self defeating, and ensure the opposite! .

Obviously Putin being forced out of power would be a great thing for his Presidency. Despite what you hear that's probably not realistic at this juncture and he knows that. He's playing a waiting game.Nothing mysterious. That's just politics.

Now you're commentary on the "free speech" of this thread.

Ben:dogmatic partisan sentiments can become hardened beyond reason. 

-Yes, it is a crime to say the 2020 election was stolen,

It's not a crime, its completely inaccurate and wacko. This was the most successful election we ever had. In 2016 there was around 123 million people voting and in 2020 there was 155 million!. That's an increase of 25% and the greatest increase in participation in American history! That's why the hysteria about this is so stupid and slavish! For both the increase and the hysteria, you can  credit Trump. There's no way the election was thrown by 7 million votes!

Ben: but OK to say Putin stole the 2016 election-- I haven't heard anybody say that here, but he did try to influence the election, but I personally don't think it altered the result.

Ben: and the 2004 election was stolen by Bushie absentee ballots in Ohio (the latter charge probably true, btw). 

I've heard that a few times here. Including you right now, but I think you're wrong. Don't assume something because you read it in the NYT,  but it is a good article, and I do think the 2000 election ended up being stolen. But one side was very gracious about that, while now the other side lost by a  margin that wasn't even close and are causing a lot of trouble.

But the reason we don't get a better election system is for the same reason that the IRS is using 40 year old computer systems and is manned by mostly near retirees, and the same reason the SEC is undermanned in regulators and Wall Street can get away with murder. it's because the Republicans have chose  for the last 40 years to defund the government, and strip it of regulators,  and there are too many other things on the Democrats plates to make it a priority. The election problem they are talking about in the NYT article is agreed upon by both parties. Period!

[Benjamin Cole]

25 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

OK, Just to show  we don't always disagree.In your first 4 paragraphs (or sentences) I'm largely in agreement.

Ben:All along, Biden has seemed adrift, behind the curve, unable to counter Putin.  Maybe NATO will wake up.

No he just doesn't mouth off like you, and why should he? I assume you're not much of a poker player.

Ben: Maybe NATO will wake up.      No, just the opposite,it's nato that would crack.

Ben:Also, concern abut mission creep is legitimate. Is this war to preserve Ukraine, or has it morphed into a regime change operation on Moscow? Biden was waffled on that. 

Is that Biden "was" waffled or "has" waffled on that? To use the correct term, I assume you mean "has". And Biden hasn't. Since he hasn't committed American troops, he's under no obligation to state any goals, than for Russia to get out of Ukraine.And publicly stating a goal of regime change would be stupid and self defeating, and ensure the opposite! .

Obviously Putin being forced out of power would be a great thing for his Presidency. Despite what you hear that's probably not realistic at this juncture and he knows that. He's playing a waiting game.Nothing mysterious. That's just politics.

Now you're commentary on the "free speech" of this thread.

Ben:dogmatic partisan sentiments can become hardened beyond reason. 

-Yes, it is a crime to say the 2020 election was stolen,

It's not a crime, its completely inaccurate and wacko. This was the most successful election we ever had. In 2016 there was around 123 million people voting and in 2020 there was 155 million!. That's an increase of 25% and the greatest increase in participation in American history! That's why the hysteria about this is so stupid and slavish! For both the increase and the hysteria, you can  credit Trump. There's no way the election was thrown by 7 million votes!

Ben: but OK to say Putin stole the 2016 election-- I haven't heard anybody say that here, but he did try to influence the election, but I personally don't think it altered the result.

Ben: and the 2004 election was stolen by Bushie absentee ballots in Ohio (the latter charge probably true, btw). 

I've heard that a few times here. Including you right now, but I think you're wrong. Don't assume something because you read it in the NYT,  but it is a good article, and I do think the 2000 election ended up being stolen. But one side was very gracious about that, while now the other side lost by a  margin that wasn't even close and are causing a lot of trouble.

But the reason we don't get a better election system is for the same reason that the IRS is using 40 year old computer systems and is manned by mostly near retirees, and the same reason the SEC is undermanned in regulators and Wall Street can get away with murder. it's because the Republicans have chose  for the last 40 years to defund the government, and strip it of regulators,  and there are too many other things on the Democrats plates to make it a priority. The election problem they are talking about in the NYT article is agreed upon by both parties. Period!

It was Rolling Stone that published a pretty solid article (as I recall) that the GOP swiped Ohio in 2004, and thus the national election. Here is reference The original article seems to be behind a paywall.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/open-thread-was-the-2004-election-stolen-81730/

---30---

Very few of the problems concerning the hacking or manipulation of voting machines and counts, detailed in the 2018 NYT cover-story article, have been fixed. 

The popular vote, in the national election, does not count. Gaming a few key close states is what counts. 

---30---

Yes, Biden has waffled on Putin.

Biden says Putin 'cannot remain in power' in sweeping speech ...

https://www.cnbc.com › 2022/03/26 › biden-says-putin...

Mar 26, 2565 BE — President Joe Biden said Russian leader Vladimir Putin “cannot remain in power” over his invasion of Ukraine. In a sweeping speech in Poland ...

---30---

Biden's handlers walked that back, although Biden himself was stubborn about the statement. 

At any time it is legitimate to ponder if policy is being made by the elected President, or the CIA-intel state. Was the Nord Stream bombing a CIA rogue action? 

It is also fair for any citizen to ask, "What is the goal of this war?"  Is it regime change, or a stable peace, an armistice, or complete elimination of Russia troops from Ukraine, including Crimea? 

Or, a stalemate, on the plan that will drain Russia down? 

The US spent 20 years in Afcrapitsan, and never had a goal. Some say it was only the unorthodox, mercurial Trump who got the US out of Afcrapistan. 

 

[Matthew Koch]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Matt--

Well, we certainly disagree on Putin, and so be it. A volitional war, whether by Bush jr. or Putin, is a crime against humanity. 

I am not surprised that there might be a lot of popular support for Putin inside Russia. Wars do that, and the Russians are fighting a war on their own border.  Russia is a nation invaded from the East a few times, with horrific consequences. 

If I had to bet, I would bet Putin will lose in Ukraine, but only after thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands have been killed or maimed, and ocean cargo carriers of money wasted. 

A fantastically expensive, counterproductive war, in other words. As an American, I have become expert at watching such wars. But maybe an armistice can be reached, and Putin will keep the eastern Ukrainian borderlands. 

All along, Biden has seemed adrift, behind the curve, unable to counter Putin.  Maybe NATO will wake up. The Poles seem tough. Contrary to what you have read, I have consistently opposed the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

 

I agree Ben, War is hell, but have you seen some of the stuff that the Azof Holol poopoo Brigade has been doing?!? It's on par with what the Cartels are doing to one another and they're doing to civilians.
I come from a family that fought in WWII, I've never looked at myself as German growing up I looked at myself as American. So when the liberals started accusing me of Huhite Privilege and if I didn't agree with the character assessment.  I was considered a poopoo!! They lost me as an alley! I now look at that woke behavior as Marxism and that cancer is currently killing America from the inside. Marxism needs an enemy to distract their minions and The Capitalist Donald is now their 1984 Goldstein for the two minute hate. Now that there are people who are acting like non playing characters in video games are now just supporting the current thing the media wants. We've entered a dangerous time in America, which is why I am living in Mexico and working on expatriating, because USA no longer feels like a safe place to live especially since President BRANDON started getting people on the world markets to trade in currency other than dollars!!! Pandora's box is open now...
So, We went from NPC's participating in and allowing Black Lives Matter riots because it's on the opposite side of Orange Man, to supporting the War in Ukraine because evil Putin meddled in our Democracy? Has MK/Ultra gotten so good that people can just do a bunch a drugs, watch a bunch of Hollywood movies, and listen to a lot of music and Brain Wash Ourselves in the Echo Chamber? The left is showing this may be the case, LOL! Which is why I left the left. 
When people on Reddit started a subReddit were showing pictures of themselves with guns saying that they were flying out to Ukraine. That showed a new dangerous level to the virtue signaling Lefties started exhibiting over the past 6 years. It's similar behavior to what people are doing in the gangster DRILL scene in Chicago.  If I hadn't read so much about MK/Ultra and Artichoke/BlueBird etc. I'd think people were possessed... 
I'll be totally honest. I thought it was pretty funny when the Ruskies Cruise missiled the Volunteer Baracks on the Polish Ukraine border, because the stoopaloop mercenary troops there turned their cell phones on! So much for posting pics on the front line! Of course that didn't stop MSNBC Correspondent Malcolm Blunt going there and pretending he is fighting on the front lines. When people started turning it into sports and if you don't have blue and yellow I support Ukraine group think or you're a rEpUbLiCaN poopoo! SO..now I support the Russians in putting down this threat. Ironic when you see the left is supporting actual nazis in Ukraine.

You have to remember the press in America is not reporting the War accurately or else the NPC's wouldn't want to send that much tax money to a losing cause. It's going to be as big a waste as Khruschev's Missile Gambit that failed. I recommend not measuring the war by American standards. America blows up the infrastructure before hand. Leaves people without electricity or water and basically makes the civilian population surrender or die. Russia was attempting to kick out the Zelensky Regime and destroy terrorist paramilitary Azov battalion (which is why they sent in the Chechyans) and win over the population, but failed when the West started supporting the people who had dug in. Russia being wary of a NATO attack held the veteran Russian Army back and conscripted new troops and used old equipment. They did Phase 1 with rookies and old gear and still BTFO'd the Ukrainian forces until the HIMARS arrived. 

 In War there is a thing called terraforming the battlefield. America did it in the first Gulf Conflict before making final attack on Baghdad. I suspect Russia is doing the same thing just a lot more carefully. In this latest mobilization Putin is looking to move the people on the supply lines up to the brigade that will take Kiev. The new conscripts will take over the supply lines and production for the next Phase II. Which I think will go from using the Z moniker to using the V.
This is very serious to people in Russia! The West trying to ruin their economy and cut them off and treat them as lesser thans have created unity in the country and people originally skeptical of Putin now believe the West hates them and is Racist towards Russians. Our media is doing the same thing they did with that stupid band PussyRIOT that got arrested for protesting in a Church. American media made them into political prisoners in the press meanwhile because of the Soviets messing with the Orthodox Church there are very strict laws surrounding protesting religious institutions in Russia and like 95% of the population supported putting those women in jail, lol.

 So if people in the west think that this conflict is going to go their way, I highly doubt it. The Soil is already irradiated, I think there is a very high probability that Putin will use tactical nukes if things escalate. This will be similar to Khrushchev restarting the Nuke testing to make Kennedy look weak, it will make Biden look even weaker than he is already doing himself. They Ruskies used their very expensive Hypersonic missile against the Officers Barracks killing 30 very high level people in the Ukrainian military. The Barracks was completely destroyed which would have staged NATO troops had they entered the conflict. This was a very big shot across the bow and it was not reported in Western Media. The media has not reported on the big gains and big losses. The winter is when Russia makes their money on gas exports and they will easily be able to afford the war effort for the next 6 months. Sanctions was a big Fubar. I also suspect Russia is waiting for the ground to freeze so they can that they tanks off road for the final push. Guess we'll find out soon.. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Matthew Koch
Changed Their to there

[W. Niederhut]

Well, it's a shame to see this interesting thread suddenly covered with Fox/GOP elephant dung.

Cleaning up the Fox/GOP elephant dung in the U.S. mainstream and social media is an onerous, never-ending job.

There's too much to shovel.

Not something that I really want to waste time on, although I have spent a lot of time during the past year pointing out the errors and contradictions in Ben's Fox/GOP narratives-- e.g., "Patriot Purge," J6 "scrum," Biden as Neville Chamberlain, etc.

Regarding responsibility for our multi-trillion dollar Afghan War debacle, here is my brief take.

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR AFGHAN WAR DEBACLE?

In Reality

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld: 80%

Obama/Gates: 10%

Trump: 8%

Biden: 2%

According to Fox News

Biden:  90%

Trump:  0%

Obama: 10%

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld: 0%