H&L - Stripling

[Tony Krome]

18 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Tony... this has to do with the other house next to Stripling where Marge lived at some point...  if she was at 2220 Thomas on 11/22/63... it was not long until she is moved to the other side of Stripling... 4029 Byers... and was there for at least 10 years.

Wait ..... I have something, let me get my head around this

[David Josephs]

On 7/30/2020 at 3:32 PM, Tony Krome said:

Update #1

In May 1954, Apartment "B" was occupied by Jessie Mae Scarbrough (born Hoggard) b.1914 - d.1998. She had divorced her husband Leo Jackson Scarbrough in 1947.

On September 8th, 1954, a refrigerator for sale ad at 2220 Thomas Place was placed in the Fort Worth Star Telegram.

On September 14th 1954, a week later, rental ads first started appearing in the same paper like the one in the above picture.

Prior to 1954, rental ads show up for the same apartment in October 1952, nothing can be found so far between these dates.

Occupant Apt "B" decides to move out and sell her fridge

Apr "B" goes up for rent Sept 14th....   (are there ads each week thru the 30th? and ads after the 30th of Sept?)

Marge and Harvey arrive saying they will rent Apt "B".... yet within a couple weeks she is telling Jessie Mae that she'll be leaving (where did you get "thru Dec 1954")?

On 7/30/2020 at 3:32 PM, Tony Krome said:

H&L have the Marguerite Imposter and Harvey Oswald living in Apartment "B" for the months of September to December 1954

H&L: The 1st school Harvey returned to was Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth
( 1954) where he dropped out after two months.

I haven't seen anything which suggests they stayed into Nov...  So Marge says they'd leave before the end of Oct...  the ads for Apt B continue yet obviously if the ads were still running in Nov they bought 3 months worth... or the room had not rented...  does not exclude Marge and Harvey from spending 6 weeks there...

Isn't that what you're saying?

[Tony Krome]

DJ

The H&L site has those strips showing where they were for each month. (you can see the Sept strip in my original picture collage)

So the months of Sept through to Dec 54 are allocated to 2220 Thomas Place

The rental ads run continuously from the 14th Sept 54 to 1st Nov almost every day. Only difference is the ad style and price drop.

This 4029 Byers has me intrigued, there is something going on over there, looking into that now

[David Josephs]

47 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

DJ

The H&L site has those strips showing where they were for each month. (you can see the Sept strip in my original picture collage)

So the months of Sept through to Dec 54 are allocated to 2220 Thomas Place

The rental ads run continuously from the 14th Sept 54 to 1st Nov almost every day. Only difference is the ad style and price drop.

This 4029 Byers has me intrigued, there is something going on over there, looking into that now

I've been looking and coming up empty prior to 1962 when the Jones' buy it...

As to the ongoing ad for renting the room...  if Stripling was what we think, "Sorry, it's been rented" makes an easy way out while Marge is living there. as it appears they simply didn't want to rent it for a while, from Sept 1954 thru Nov at least....

Do you find it strange that Oswald was able to run out and find places to live within days, yet this apartment across from a school in a great area stays unrented for so long...

hmmmm....

4029 Byers is in the QUEENSBOROUGH ADDITION FIRST FILING.... but while I can access the parcel cards for any subdivision in Tarrant Cty, the name of the subdivision remains elusive.

It's not QUEENSBOROUGH.... which was an addition to Arlington Heights...  but that's as far as I can find to this point.

Hope you find something...

DJ

[David Josephs]

btw - it would be nice if you stopped treating everything written about H&L as gospel, written permanently into stone...

This was where John left off...  he has them there thru Dec I'd suppose because where they went after Stripling is hard to prove beyond what was listed in the 1956 phone book: 
While not in the book it makes contextual sense that they'd be in town...  it was in the image I posted showing Marge in 54 and again in 56... both on Exchange Alley.

In the same book listing 120 N Telemachus is Marguerite Oswald 126 Exchange Place...

Margaret Keating Oswald was the first wife of Robert E. L. Oswald (father of
Robert and Lee Harvey Oswald), whom she divorced in 1933. The court restored her
last name to Keating, her maiden name, which she kept for the remainder of her life (she
apparently never remarried). The name Margaret Keating and her address, 120 N.
Telemachus Street, appear in New Orleans City Directories, telephone books, voter
registration records, etc., from 1933 thru the early 1960's.

In the 1956 New Orleans City Directory, which records listings for the last half
of 1955, the directory listed her as "Margt. Oswald," 120 N. Telemachus Street, New
Orleans. 55-21 This is the only occasion where the name "Margaret Keating" appears as
Margt. Oswald - a name she had not used for the past 23 years

 

 

 

 

[Tony Krome]

5 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Hope you find something

Ok, when you mentioned 4029 Byers, alarm bells went off, in fact I nearly activated the neighborhood air raid siren.

Pendleton was over on Byers

I knew at this point that the McCarthy/Pendleton family told the FBI about the departure of Marguerite from Thomas, but they also told them that they had no idea where she went.

Hence the alarm.

But it may be a nothingburger, Pendleton was on 5029 Byers, not 4029

 

btw. I use H&L info as a starting point, certainly not gospel. I have no choice but to reference the information there otherwise some readers here would not know what I'm referring to. Mostly anything contrary to the official line is a theory. H&L have solid research, and a ton of it, and they have developed their own theories from the discrepancies. There's always newly developed information, and theories evolve. So in this case, they have a table where 4 months are allocated for Thomas Place in 54. If they persist on displaying that table, they may need to squeeze it into a much shorter stay or discard Thomas Place 1954 altogether. If they still want Marguerite in Thomas in Sept/Oct, when do they arrive? How did they know when the existing tenant was vacating? There are no previous rental ads that I can see all the way back to 52. Do they have potential renters responding to Sept 14th to Nov 1st ads checking out the premises for 6 weeks? McCarthy/Pendleton had the ledgers for 2220 Thomas Place, yet they fail to inform the FBI that the guy that shot Kennedy was a lodger in 1954, but they hand over seemingly worthless information that Marguerite vacated over a year after the assassination. All this and more to consider.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Tony Krome

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

btw. I use H&L info as a starting point, certainly not gospel

couldn't have said it any better....  the ENTIRE point... 

You might try 120 N Telemachus in New Orleans as to where they went in Nov 1954... since Harvey (and Marge) worked for DOLLY SHOES in 1955
yet Marge didn't get too far as she would not fill out the personal information on the insurance paperwork...

In the summer of 55, Robert visits and he's already working for TUJAGUES...

 

Sept 1955 he attends a couple months at Warren Easton HS in New Orleans and is gone again... this time to San Diego... all the while still working at TUJAGUES and his mother at Gold Ring's Dept Store...

Coming together.... piece by piece...

[Ron Bulman]

11 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

couldn't have said it any better....  the ENTIRE point... 

You might try 120 N Telemachus in New Orleans as to where they went in Nov 1954... since Harvey (and Marge) worked for DOLLY SHOES in 1955
yet Marge didn't get too far as she would not fill out the personal information on the insurance paperwork...

In the summer of 55, Robert visits and he's already working for TUJAGUES...

 

Sept 1955 he attends a couple months at Warren Easton HS in New Orleans and is gone again... this time to San Diego... all the while still working at TUJAGUES and his mother at Gold Ring's Dept Store...

Coming together.... piece by piece...

Ha, two pages and I'm almost lost again DJ.  You and Tony are getting deep for me in a hurry.  I need to re read the thread and more, like H&L.  Lost again.  A synopsis of a small aspect of a such big subject would be greatly appreciated by the less knowledgeable.

[David Josephs]

 

59 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Ha, two pages and I'm almost lost again DJ.  You and Tony are getting deep for me in a hurry.  I need to re read the thread and more, like H&L.  Lost again.  A synopsis of a small aspect of a such big subject would be greatly appreciated by the less knowledgeable.

Sept 1954 while Lee and mom are in New Orleans, Harvey and mom are at 2220 Thomas attending Stripling...  4029 Byers is on the other side of the school but just as close
so it is possible the house Marge was taken to in 1947 while living at 101 San Saba was BYERS and not THOMAS... 

The notion had been brought forth than Kudlaty was lying...  or that there is not enough reason to believe him... in more than one thread now we've made our points 
yet as usual there is always a few who will not accept any rationale regardless...

Tony has done an amazing job clearing the roadblocks and showing it was easily possible they were on Thomas with Harvey attending 9th grade for 6-8 weeks before heading off again.

Dolly Shoe and Tujagues represent another impossible situation were it only 1 person......

If you or anyone wants the H&L timeline in excel - I've been updating as need be...  send me a note and your email and I'll send it out...

Side by side I try and reconcile H&L from the beginning...

Take care... hope that helps

DJ

[Jim Hargrove]

From Baylor Univ. John Armstrong Collection:

Other Fort Worth Criss Cross Directory pages that John copied are available here:

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/marguerite-oswald/697171 

From Harvey and Lee, p. 102:

Residents of 2220 Thomas Place

In 1940 the duplex at 2220 Thomas Place was purchased by Edna Pendleton.
There were two apartments-one in the front (apt. "A"), and one in the rear (apt. "B").
In 1946 and 1947 Mrs. Rufie Cox occupied apartment "A," while Erwin and Velda
Schmutz occupied apartment "B." From 1948 thru 1954 Mrs. Rufie Cox occupied apart-
ment "A," but there was no listing for anyone in apartment "B." In 1955, Mrs. Rufie Cox
occupied apartment "A," and W. A. Hazelwood occupied apartment "B."

On February 13, 1963 the property was purchased by Mary Ann McCarthy, al-
legedly a close friend of Fort Worth attorney Fred Korth. Korth represented Edwin
Ekdahl in his 194 7 divorce from Marguerite Oswald, became Secretary of the Navy, and
resigned his position only one month before the assassination. The 1964 and 1965 Fort
Worth city directories show the tenant in apartment "B" as M. C. Oswald. In 1978 the
property was sold to John H. Clarke and soon the small duplex was torn down and re­
placed by a new two story, wood frame building.
 

[Sandy Larsen]

19 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

But I see what you're thinking.... it could be that 2220 Thomas Place was perhaps a CIA safe house and that records were created (using real peoples' names) to hide that fact.

I recalled something this morning that supports the notion that other people's names may have been used while "Marguerite" was staying at 2220 Thomas, if indeed she did stay there in 1954.

Just out of college I worked for an intelligence contractor whose clients included NSA, CIA, and some entities that "didn't exist." We had a SCIF and routinely dealt with top secret material. But we also dealt with a lot of (non-top) secret level material that we could talk about with other employees outside the SCIF . (All the employees there had at least secret level clearances.)

Well, I recall one time when one of the administrative members of the company was sharing with some of us there in the lunchroom something that happened with some company mail that was sent to someone she knew. I don't recall the story nor it's significance. What I do recall is that I learned at that time that the company was using relatives of employees for sending and receiving secret level documents.

I'm pretty sure that this was standard procedure for mailing (certain?) secret documents, not just where I worked but everywhere in the U.S. Because I personally was involved in transporting a stack of classified documents in a similarly mundane, off-beat manner. I was sent over to the Lockheed "Blue Cube" building to be briefed on how to transport the material. The first thing I was told was that the purpose of the handcuffs that we'd see spies in the movies using to hold onto their briefcases wasn't to keep other spies from stealing their briefcase, but rather was to keep them from forgetting and leaving their briefcase somewhere. After that introduction I was given instructions on how not to lose the documents I'd be carrying.

My stack of documents was too large to fit in a briefcase, so I was given alternate measures for me not to forget and leave the box of documents somewhere. For example: sit on them while traveling by air (the stack was too tall for this to work, so I put them under my feet); sleep on them (I just put my arm over them); and some other things I forget, probably because they did work.

Anyway, I learned from this and other things at work that strange, unexpected things can be done in the name of secret work. And so it is possible that another person's name be used when Marguerite was living at 2220 Thomas.

 

[Tony Krome]

Notable from Jim's Baylor post above;

There's a Jessie Scarborough that appears later, this time Apartment "A". Scarborough is spelt differently (extra O). Might be Jessie L Scarborough

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Tony Krome