How to debunk the George Hickey theory?

[John Butler]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:00 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

If you watch Part 6: "The Kill Shot" you will know that the fatal shot did come from the front. Why it was covered up even though it came from the TSBD (Oswald?) was because there was a math problem.

Denise,

Could you explain this in greater detail.  I am somewhat confused.  The fatal shot comes from the front and Oswald made the shot from the TSBD.  That doesn't make any sense.  In order for Oswald to do a frontal shot from the TSBD then the shot would have to occur on Houston Street.

I probably have something wrong here.  Could you clarify this?

[Denise Hazelwood]

Jonathan Cohen, I'm not sure about the Costello "sensors." I believe he noted washers under some of the lamp posts and "rain gauges" on some of the posts, some of which (IIRC) he thought were suspicious, perhaps thinking they were cameras or something. Perhaps they were just rain gauges. I've never been to Dealey Plaza myself so have no knowledge of what he actually saw. Pictures would help. I also believe he thought he was being "followed" at one point. I dunno about that. But given James Tague's accounts of having been observed looking for site of the Main Street curb strike, it is not outside the realm of possibility. But whatever Costello saw (range gauges or cameras or whatever), I don't think he ever asserted they were Star Trek-like "sensors."  I do recall him reporting some odd goings on, but he is not the only one to report such oddness.

[Denise Hazelwood]

John Butler, to understand my "kill shot" coming from Oswald and entering the forehead, you must first accept that the Z-film is a fabrication. Once you accept that much, then go back and look at the witness accounts. On pg. 2 of this thread, you posted a text document of a number of witness accounts.  Many, many witnesses describe the first shot in connection with "the turn." In my documentary, I give the clip of Pierce Allman, which is nice because it's on video, and he is describing the first shot as very high up on Elm Street, immediately after the turn. I also talk about Ruby Henderson's "paper." Given where she was standing, this had to have occurred before the follow-up car with all its agents as well as other motorcade vehicles blocked her view. This scenario also makes sense for Warren Taylor's "streamer." Jack Franzen described "fireworks" with the first shot. Toni Glover also seems to describe the first shot/turn as the "head shot," although other accounts seem to describe it (or another one?) farther down Elm Street. (She is one witness I would personally like to interview. I tried emailing her once, but she never responded.) I gave an early account of Karen Westbrook describing a "hair lift" with what had to be the first shot, given Kennedy's "awful, stunned expression" that accompanied the "hair lift." Alan Smith, who was standing "directly under the window" from which the shots were fired saw JFK struck "in the forehead." There were no other buildings past the TSBD. (Some researchers have proposed a shooter from a different window, but I don't believe witness accounts support that scenario.)

The reason you are confused is because the Z-film is so ingrained as the "what happened" of the JFK assassination. Some bystanders missed seeing what happened with the first shot (witness all the smiling faces of Altgens 6 when JFK is clearly already in distress). Altgens himself thought the picture was simultaneous with the "first" shot, though the WC "fixed it" as "two seconds after" the shot. The limo is still fairly high up on Elm Street, though it had those "two seconds" to travel to the point in the Altgens 6 picture. You can see the chunk of skull bone on Bobby Hargis' right cheek in Altgens 6 (before it fell off onto the pavement)--it didn't land there with the later head shot. I've got Dan Rather showing the turn from Houston onto Elm and saying "right there, is where the President was shot." 

In order to hide the AR-15 shot, other shots had to be subtracted. This first shot was covered up because, being the first, fewer people noticed it. (It was the "moonwalking bear" and went largely unnoticed by the slow-cited hungover SS, who were scanning the crowds to the right and left and not watching the POTUS). Misperceptions of separate shots as "firecrackers" or "backfire" or "echoes" has added to the confusion. Most witnesses reported 3 shots, but they didn't report the same three shots. The shot at the end of the turn was commonly missed, but in the accounts that you yourself give, many witnesses did report the "turn" shot. The later misinformation effect of the extant Z-film, first published in still images by the WC, caused some of them to later forget this "turn" shot. 

Eliminate the Z-film as "evidence" of anything. Then go back and re-read your own witness accounts. Note how many times "the turn" from Houston onto Elm figures into their accounts. 

 

                                             

[Chris Davidson]

32 minutes ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

Then go back and re-read your own witness accounts.

 

                                             

I have previously provided the location of Woodward.

She was a reporter at the time.

Where is the blood description of a prior headshot, as JFK moves past Woodward?

Dallas Morning News (Dallas, Texas), 23 November 1963, page 3

Here is an excerpt from her article:

Witness from The News Describes Assassination

(The following eyewitness account was written by a Dallas News staff writer.)

By Mary E. Woodward

"Four of us from Women’s News, Maggie Brown, Aurelia Alonzo, my roommate Ann Donaldson, and myself had decided to spend our lunch hour by going to see the President.

We took our lunch along – some crackers and apples – and started walking down Houston Street. We decided to cross Elm and wait there on the grassy slope just east of the Triple Underpass, since there weren’t very many people there and we could get a better view.

We had been waiting about half an hour when the first motorcycle escorts came by, followed shortly by the President’s car. The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed. Jackie was wearing a beautiful pink suit with beret to match. Two of us, who had seen the President last during the final weeks of the 1960 campaign, remarked almost simultaneously how relaxed and robust he looked.

As it turned out, we were almost certainly the last faces he noticed in the crowd."

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

John Butler, to understand my "kill shot" coming from Oswald and entering the forehead, you must first accept that the Z-film is a fabrication. Once you accept that much, then go back and look at the witness accounts.

Denise,

You need say no more than this.  Sorry, if I seemed to be challenging what you said.  I was simply looking for clarification.  The problem I have with the head shot in the intersection of Houston and Elm from the TSBD is I believe the angle is too steep to account for that head wound there.  I understand others can think differently.

I am one of the biggest proponents of the Zapruder film being altered.  One of my main theories is the assassination took place in the Zapruder Gap, that missing section of film between Z 132 and Z 133.  The Zapruder Gap contains the footage of what happened in the intersection and in front of the TSBD.  IMO, the editors just took the film from there and transferred it down to the Grassy Knoll as we see in the extant film.  All they had to do was transfer the images from the inside to the car rather than the whole thing.  I think there is evidence of this in Z 157.  There were more people than Zapruder filming this event in the intersection and from different angles.  I think I can see 3 different camera angles on the SW corner of Houston and Elm.  It's iffy and involves the place position of people as seen in different films such as Zapruder and Elsie Dorman.   

I don't think over a hundred witnesses are lying or are misinterpreting what they saw.  You might argue over a few in the list, but this is what they said.  I carefully excluded those that could be arguable in my opinion.

I don't agree with the George HIckey notion.  Most of the action in the assassination took place in the Zapruder Gap and just before.  Hickey's firing of his weapon comes later down Elm Street so to me it has relatively no importance.

I agree with too many of the things you are saying to dismiss what you are saying.  You may be right and I will later change my opinion.  But, not right now.  There are things I disagree with like Hickey and the head shot.

Too many people are placing too many head shots into Kennedy's head.  There is a thread on this here on the forum.  It seems like I counted something like 7 or more.  7 may be a high number, but it was certainly more than 3.

Thanks for responding.  

  

 

[John Butler]

Denise,

Speaking of a head shot to Kennedy from the 6th floor to the intersection, I still think the angle is too high.  However, there could be the possibility of a shot from the 2nd or 3rd SE corner offices.  Steve Wilson's behavior on that day and later to me is suspicious. 

That might make the head shot possible.  I'm not very good with angles and distances.  But, it is a possibility that I have always thought possible. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by John Butler

[Denise Hazelwood]

John,

I'm not an expert on angles or distances, either, but the FBI is/was. I'll give you an angle of about 45º from the TSBD 6th floor window JFK on the street (albeit the throat wound location rather than the forehead, which is where I think it actually entered) which is what the FBI came up with in their "Visual Aids" model. However, the angle through JFK's head depends on where he was looking. However, since the bullet fragmented on entry, there were actually several angles through the head. If JFK were looking straight ahead, the angle would be towards the bottom of his head. However, if he was looking upward towards people in the TSBD building, the angle through his head would have been higher--say, an occipital exit. There is also the consideration of a slight rise in bullet trajectory (IIRC, the term is "yaw") inside the body. The bullet pieces had to miss the medulla, since JFK was still breathing at Parkland. Beyond that, exit points in any of the interesting areas of the F8 "Mystery" autopsy photo, such as the circular area showing external beveling at the edge of the large hole, or any area within the blow-out hole.

Sorry if I seemed antagonistic, and responded to your query as a "challenge" rather than a request for "clarification." I also apologize if my response was not any more clear than my original attempt to express myself. 

Quote

 One of my main theories is the assassination took place in the Zapruder Gap, that missing section of film between Z 132 and Z 133.  

That is exactly where I think the first shot happened. The last shot happened down closer to the foot of the stairs, near Malcolm Summers ("right about where I was at," in Summers' words).

[Denise Hazelwood]

Chris Davidson,

Regarding Mary Woodward Pillsworth (who can be seen smiling in Altgens 6), she said in one interview that she was entirely unaware of any real problem until the last head shot. (She did say, however, that she was certain that her "first" shot, which I interpret as Altgens 6, to the actual first shot) didn't hit anyone in the limousine. As for her belief that JFK and Jackie "waved" to her, I believe that she misinterpreted JFK's movement into that "chest grab" position (i.e., decorticate posture position) as a "wave."

As for no one seeing Kennedy shot in the head, there were a couple of witnesses who saw his "hair lift" early in the assassination (and others like Mary Moorman who saw his "hair lift" again later. Karen Westbrook in an early interview described the "hair lift." Charles Brehm also described an early "hair lift." Ruby Henderson's "paper," Warren Taylor's "streamer" and Jack Franzen's "particles" all refer to this same event. Toni Glover seems to describe an early head shot, although sometimes that appears to be confused with a later head shot. The fabricated Zapruder film (with its early b&w frame images published with the WC documents) provided a "misinformation effect" that the "only" head shot happened when the limo was just past Mary Moorman's position (when actually it happened farther down Elm Street, closer to Malcolm Summers' position).

[Chris Davidson]

On 12/3/2021 at 11:58 AM, Chris Davidson said:

Woodward was at approx extant z197 according to DR's map which is around Station# 3+61

Extant z207 physical location is Station# 3+71.1 about a 10ft difference between extant z197-z207.

She describes at least two shots approx 100ft farther down Elm.

Extant z313 shot at Station# 465.3

465.3 - 361 = 104ft.

In her interview in the documentary "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" she in essence says the last two shots overlapped each other in sound.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Denise,

Besides her article which is published on Nov23 1963, approx two weeks later, Woodward's statement about the two near simultaneous shots 100ft farther down Elm St.

As far as I know, she never saw the extant Zfilm before writing her article or making her statement.

You don't need to be an expert on distances to understand that Woodward was quite accurate in her description of where the two near simultaneous shots occurred on Elm St.

When a person "waves", normally their hand(singular) moves up and outward away from the body, not inward.

There is no film footage of JFK that I have come across which shows JFK waving to the crowd with both hands(simultaneously).

 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

The bullet pieces had to miss the medulla, since JFK was still breathing at Parkland.

Denise,

I have always wondered if that was true.  I have wondered whether the Parkland doctors just said that to say they were making an attempt to keep Kennedy alive.  I can't see surviving the head trauma that Kennedy suffered.  With that kind of head wound I would think all brain functions would stop.  But, I believe the Parkland doctors described JFK breathing as agonal breathing.  Just for clarity:

Agonal breathing is when someone who is not getting enough oxygen is gasping for air. It is usually due to cardiac arrest or stroke. It's not true breathing. It's a natural reflex that happens when your brain is not getting the oxygen it needs to survive. 

Agonal breathing is a sign that a person is near death. It's also a sign that the brain is still alive. People who have agonal breathing and are given cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) are more likely to survive cardiac arrest than people without agonal breathing.

If this is so, then the brain stem area must have had little damage.

Kennedy did not move after the head shot.  He slumped over to the left towards Jackie.  This is consistent with the cerebellum impaired.

 

 

 

[John Butler]

Denise,

I don't know how many times JFK was shot in the head.  I speculate that there was just two.  Other folks have come up with higher numbers.

The forehead to the rear occipital area can be seen as one shot.  Or, it could be seen as two shots if there was a lower level shot to the temporal region.  That would make two.  I discount the high, rear skull shot.  If that was a rifle shot that would come out somewhere in the front of Kennedy's skull not at the top or side.  

There may be confusion on the location of the forehead wound near the hairline.  Most just say the temporal region.  Not so, if the forehead wound is accurately described, it would be in the Sphenoid bone or the Frontal bone.  The Sphenoid bone is located near the eye.  The area of a shot to the temporal region is not there do to tampering with the skull as David Lipton describes. 

That is the two shots I ascribe to as far as head wounds go.  

There were many shooting stations in this ambush of JFK.  I believe each station was authorized to shoot 3 times and no more.  The noise from the motorcade would limit any noise from shooting on Main Street or in the intersection of Main and Houston. Shooting on Main Street occurred as several witnesses said.  I don't think this would be heard at the intersection of Houston and Elm or down Elm Street.  Such shoot may be heard as firecrackers or the backfire of the police motorcycles.

What I am trying to say is that witnesses would hear the 3 shots that were the closest to them and not more distant shots unless they had exceptional hearing.  

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by John Butler

[Denise Hazelwood]

Just as a brief aside the DPD officer in the background of Altgens 6 is probably Welcome Eugene Barnett, who was positioned to block traffic heading south on Houston Street as well as the access road in front of the TSBD. In his WC testimony, he described the car passing a few feet in front of him, and holding back some people, including "one small boy started. I was afraid he was going to get too close and I stopped him." The "small boy" being the kid in the dark jacket? Possibly Alan Smith? He described himself as being in "Position 9" of CE 354. (although I would have preferred to see the original marking rather than the white typing that was published). See Hearings Vol VII p. 541.

[Denise Hazelwood]

Chris Davidson,

Woodward was basically a rookie reporter for women's news (it was her first job). Her status as a "reporter" did not make her any more observant than a normal person. She said in her Sixth Floor museum interview that she was unaware of any real problems In the motorcade until the final head shot, and she can be seen smiling in Altgens 6 the JFK was clearly already in distress. She may have been a "reporter" (for the "women's news"), but she wasn't very aware of what was going on. She did say, however, that she was "certain" that the "first" shot she heard (which I believe to be the Altgens 6 shot) "did not hit anybody in the car." I don't think the Altgens 6 shot hit anybody, either, but do think she missed the shot that caused Kennedy to go into the "chest grab" decorticate posture position (clearly seen in Altgens 6).

[John Butler]

Denise,

There were 3 policemen assigned to the Houston and Elm intersection area.  Welcome Eugene Barrett, Joe Marshall Smith, and Edgar Leon Smith.  Joe Marshall Smith is the officer in the middle of the street on east Elm and Houston seen in Altgens 6.  From his testimony.  

Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?
Mr. SMITH. Three of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men?
Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there?
Mr. SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from that you held up?
Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm.
Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and held up the traffic to Elm. Street; is that right?

Although not common, there are a few things that can be verified in the JFKA.  This is one.

As far as Alan, I don't believe the young man show is Alan.  Alan was with his friends.  That young man was by himself.

 

[Denise Hazelwood]

John, 

I note that "the medulla was intact" largely based on the remarks of Dr. Robert McClellan, whose interview clips I include in my documentary. My trajectory for the first shot is forehead at the hairline above the right eye (fragmenting on impact) to the right occipital blow-out for the first shot, and EOP entrance to an exit above the right ear for the AR-15 shot. Both of these would have had to miss the medulla, and the first would have had to miss the spinal column as well. Any alternative scenarios would have had to miss these structures, as well.