Jump to content
The Education Forum

Opinions on shots fired, and which caused which wounds.


Recommended Posts

This is very "back to basics" stuff guys, so I apologise if its a bit obvious...

I've tried to find some sort of consensus about the number of shots fired, and the locations of the shooters along with a correlation of which shots caused which wounds.

I can find all sorts of opinions about specific elements, (we all know the head shot was separate to any other wound for example, and experts saying that Connelly was hit at least twice) but I can't find a decent theory that explains all the wounds and, quite importantly, what happened to all the associated bullets. I often come across partial theories such as "lower floor of the DalTex building." and "Triangulation of crossfire..."

I'd like to open this up for anyone to offer their personal opinion of the order the wounds were caused, the precise number of shots fired, where those shots came from, or let me know a place where I can check out a version that most people already agree on.

Cheers, in anticipation of the schooling I'm about to receive! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are not very many diagrams on the internet that I have found ( most only contain 3 shots) I had a different diagram on my Photobucket account that I no longer pay for.Here is a breakdown that you have to use your own opinion.Study at your own risk.It does not include all of Conally's wounds or the alleged shot that hit the Stemmons freeway sign.

 

https://themmacommunity.com/attachments/1650404464687-png.66138/

Edited by Michael Crane
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

This is very "back to basics" stuff guys, so I apologise if its a bit obvious...

I've tried to find some sort of consensus about the number of shots fired, and the locations of the shooters along with a correlation of which shots caused which wounds.

I can find all sorts of opinions about specific elements, (we all know the head shot was separate to any other wound for example, and experts saying that Connelly was hit at least twice) but I can't find a decent theory that explains all the wounds and, quite importantly, what happened to all the associated bullets. I often come across partial theories such as "lower floor of the DalTex building." and "Triangulation of crossfire..."

I'd like to open this up for anyone to offer their personal opinion of the order the wounds were caused, the precise number of shots fired, where those shots came from, or let me know a place where I can check out a version that most people already agree on.

Cheers, in anticipation of the schooling I'm about to receive! 

There is nothing remotely approaching consensus on the number of shots, where they were fired from, and which shot created which injury.

On my website, I discuss a wide variety of evidence, and try to put this evidence together into a shooting scenario. But even I would say it's less than 100%. More like 80. I would go further moreover and say that anyone claiming they know what happened beyond 80% is totally full of beans. 

 

From chapter 20 at patspeer.com

A New Perspective on the Shots That Killed The President

Shot #1. Approximate firing time: Zapruder frame 188. Hit Kennedy in back around 190, fell out in limousine. (Possibly a hand-loaded bullet.) From: the sixth floor window of the TSBD. Heard by: pretty much everyone in Dealey Plaza between the time of the shot and 10 frames afterward. Other evidence for: the wound in Kennedy’s back, probed at autopsy and found to have been a shallow wound with no passage into Kennedy's chest cavity. CE 399, the nearly pristine bullet found on a gurney in Parkland hospital, the appearance of which would be consistent with the bullet's having been hand-loaded and under-charged (which would, in turn, be consistent with this bullet's having created the shallow back wound observed at autopsy). CE 543, one of the rifle cartridge cases found in the depository, which ballistics investigator Joseph Nichol believed may have been used prior to the assassination, which, it follows, may have been the hand-loaded cartridge firing CE 399. Hugh Betzner's photograph taken just before the first shot, determined to have been taken at Z-186. Jackie Kennedy’s turning to her husband beginning at Zapruder frame 190. Phil Willis' testimony that Mrs. Kennedy snapped her head in that direction at the sound of the first shot. Secret Service Agent George Hickey's turning to his right starting around frame 193. Kennedy’s jerky head and hand movements beginning around Zapruder frame 194. Rosemary Willis’s turning to her right around frame 198. Phil Willis’ photograph taken as a reaction to the first shot, determined to have been taken at frame 202. Secret Service Agent John Ready’s turning to his right around Zapruder frame 203. President Kennedy’s lowering his right arm and lifting his left before frame 224. Connally’s testimony that he believed the first and second shot were fired very close together and indicative of automatic rifle fire. The testimony and statements of numerous witnesses indicating that the first shot rang out when Kennedy was waving (when he stopped waving just after Z-190) and as he approached the Thornton Freeway sign (which Kennedy passed at Z-207).

Jiggle analysis: Zapruder’s camera jiggles at 194.

Shot or shots #2. Approximate firing time: Zapruder frame 222.

Hit Kennedy in hairline at frame 224, exited his throat. Connally wounded in his chest, wrist, and thigh. Wounds seem instantaneous, but it seems likely they were created by separate bullets rapid-fired from a semi-automatic weapon.

From: most likely the upper floors or roof of the Dal-Tex Building.

Heard by: a few near Houston and Elm, perhaps a few on the railroad bridge. Bullet and/or bullets were either fired from a rifle equipped with a silencer, or fired from deep within a building so its sound was muffled in comparison to the other shots. Subsonic ammunition may also have been involved. It’s noted that Nellie Connally, both in her book and in her testimony, says “and then--a second shot” or “and then there was a second shot;” and that she rarely mentions hearing this second shot. In fact, she didn't mention hearing this second shot until 1966, when she said as much to Life Magazine. Since she also swore she saw her husband get hit by this shot and that it came after he yelled “No, no, no,” and since her husband’s testimony and the Zapruder film demonstrate she didn’t even look at him till frame 230 and he didn’t yell anything until after he’d already been hit, it’s safe to say she might have been confused. Neither her husband, for that matter, nor Mrs. Kennedy, recalled hearing a shot between the first shot which hit the President, and the last, which killed him. As a result it seems possible that, due to her proximity, Mrs. Connally simply heard this shot strike the President and/or her husband, and registered it as a shot, without noting that it was not as loud as the first shot.

Other evidence for: the small entrance wound in Kennedy's hairline, and the small wound in Kennedy's throat. CE 903, the re-enactment photo created by Arlen Specter for the Warren Commission, supposedly demonstrating the viability of the single-bullet theory, but really showing how a bullet just missing Kennedy's right shoulder might proceed to hit Connally in the back. Connally's back wound, which, according to Connally's doctors, suggested that the bullet striking Connally had not previously struck Kennedy. Connally's wrist wound, which, according to Connally's doctor, Dr. Charles Gregory, was inconsistent with a wound created by the nearly pristine bullet supposedly creating this wound, Exhibit CE 399, unless this bullet was traveling backwards. The traces of copper found on the front of Connally's clothing, which suggests that the jacket of the bullet striking Connally had been disrupted even prior to striking his wrist. The movement of Connally’s jacket forwards which briefly obscures his shirt from view in the Zapruder film. The rapid lifting of Kennedy’s hands towards his throat as seen in frames 226 and 227. (His hands were actually dropping towards his chest between 224 and 225, but they shot sharply upward at 226.) Connally’s hair jumping up and his being straightened out in his seat, only to collapse back to his right around 234. Bullet fragments removed from Connally’s wrist that do not match the bullet found on the gurney nor the fragments found in the President’s skull. (Actual bullet or bullets may have bounced out of the car off Connally’s leg, or been picked up by a Secret Service Agent. There were rumors that a hole in the floor of the limousine was discovered in early 1964, which might account for the bullet leaving Kennedy’s neck should it have been a separate bullet.)

Jiggle analysis: Zapruder’s camera jiggles around 227 and again at 231.

Shot #3. Approximate firing time: Zapruder frame 310-311.

Hit Kennedy near the temple at frame 313. Bullet fragmented. One piece of its core seems to have continued on to chip the concrete near Tague around 319.

From: the sixth floor window of the TSBD

Heard by: everyone in Dealey Plaza from the time of the shot up to 10 frames afterward. Tague would have heard this shot around 319 or 320.

Other evidence for: extensive damage to the head of the President. Explosion of skull as visible in the Zapruder film. Bullet fragments found in the President’s brain. Additional fragments believed to be linked to these fragments found underneath Nellie Connally’s seat as well as on the front seat of the limousine. Front seat fragments linked to rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD.

Jiggle analysis: Zapruder’s camera jiggles around 318 and 324 and again at 331.

Sound or Shot #4. Approximate firing time: Zapruder frame 320-327.

Missed or possibly not even a shot. Quite possibly a loud firecracker used as a diversionary device. The August 27, 1942 issue of Tactical and Technical Trends, a publication of the U.S. War Department, in an article on Japanese Tactics in the Philippines, described the use of firecrackers to "confuse U.S. troops as to the actual Japanese position." More to the point, Combat Lessons #4, a 1942 publication of the U.S. Army, noted that German snipers used firecrackers with slow-burning fuses that would go off after the sniper had left the area. Similarly, Combat Lessons #6, from 1944, noted that, in both the Pacific and European theaters of World War II, "enemy troops have used firecrackers for diversionary purposes, especially when trying to deceive our troops as to the positions of snipers."

And it wasn't that the U.S. failed to follow suit. Spycraft (2008), by former CIA Technical Service Director Robert Wallace, reports that by 1962 the CIA's Technical Services Division (the division, one might add, tasked with developing assassination weapons) had developed a Nightingale device, a firefight simulator comprising a variety of firecrackers with differently-timed fuses, which could be used to fool enemy forces into attacking the wrong position, or even attacking their own troops.

And it's not as if these firefight simulators were never used. The official Air Force history of the Son Tay raid--a 1970 raid by U.S. Forces on a North Vietnamese prison, which resulted in the rescue of 50 American prisoners of war--reflects that firecrackers with timed fuses were an integral part of the raid, and that they were used to confuse the Vietnamese troops.

The use of an explosion to draw attention from the actual area of activity, a tactic widely used today by both the military, and by SWAT teams, (just google "distraction device" and see what I mean) was therefore not only known to operation planners in 1963, but was one likely to be used, should there have been multiple shooters in buildings requiring minutes to escape.

From: somewhere west of the Texas School Book Depository, possibly the railroad yards, but more probably the back of the arcade north of the grassy knoll, or the parking lot across the street. William Newman, and Abraham Zapruder, both facing the President, with the picket fence on their right and school book depository on their left, nevertheless felt the last shot came from behind them. Since a loud sound coming from behind them at this time would arrive but a split second after the sound of a third shot fired from the depository building, a sound's coming from this area would be likely to confuse Newman and Zapruder, and other witnesses nearby, and lead them to recall hearing but two shots. Sure enough, Newman, Zapruder, Mrs. Kennedy, Bobby Hargis, Clint Hill, and Paul Landis, could clearly recall but two shots, and those nearby Kennedy claiming they heard three shots mostly did so while claiming the last two shots were nearly simultaneous. A diversionary device set off in this location would, of course, draw attention from the buildings behind the President when he was shot. If this was the plan, of course...it worked. In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, the bulk of the Police and eyewitnesses looking for the shooter ran towards the grassy knoll and railroad yards, and ignored the buildings behind the motorcade.

Heard by: everyone in Dealey Plaza from the time of the explosion to 10 frames afterward. Due to their proximity, many interpreted this shot or sound as being the same shot as shot #3. Tague would have heard this explosion around 331-334, which might explain why he was initially convinced he was hit before the third shot.

Other evidence for: reports of smoke near the stockade fence. There were gusts of wind up to twenty miles an hour which may have blown the smoke in that direction. The statements of Dallas officer Joe Marshall Smith, who thought he smelled gunpowder in the parking lot west of the School Book Depository.

Jiggle analysis: camera jiggles at 324 and again at 331.

The testimony of virtually every witness in Dealey Plaza can be accommodated through this simple four shot (or sound) scenario. It doesn’t rely on the hard-to-believe single bullet theory of an undamaged bullet nor on the widespread but scarcely supported by the evidence theory of a shooter-at-the-stockade fence. Its main drawback, as far as testimony goes, is that it calls for 4 shots (or sounds) when most witnesses heard only three. This can be effectively overcome through the argument that the second shot was silenced and heard by only a few. This scenario also fails to account for three shots in the TSBD, where three shells were found. While this could be explained by the sniper’s dropping an extra shell or by the Dallas Police Department planting a shell, the thought occurs that there was seemingly an extra shell at the Tippit killing as well, where the 4 recovered casings didn’t match the 4 bullets removed from Tippit. This uncomfortable development led the Warren Commission to conclude that in fact 5 bullets were fired at Tippit, even though most witnesses heard only three shots.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pat S.

I admire your circumspect approach, and as you say, the evidence can be read many ways. 

I have to politely take issue with the timing of the shot that struck JBC. 

By his testimony and that of his wife, and others, and as visible on the Z-film, JBC makes a near 180-degree turs in his seat after JFK has put his hands near his (JFK's) throat.

Then JBC begins to turn forward and is struck. JBC said this:

Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)

Yes, witness testimony is a jumble and unreliable. Yet, in this case the witness, JBC,  is recalling what he himself experienced. I find it hard to believe that JBC was not, in fact,  pushed forward by a strike of a bullet in his back (which also plowed through four inches of rib). 

What JBC describes happens about Z-295. As you know, that is about 1 second before Z-313. 

I contend that JBC did, in fact, respond to the sound of a rifle shot, a shot that appear to have struck JFK. JBC then makes a 180 in seat and is looking towards the rear of the limo.  Unable to glimpse JFK, JBC begins to turn forward and is then pushed forward (Z-295), as into his wife's lap. 

This pattern of JFK shot-JBC shot-JFK shot also fits with the widely recounted "bang...bang-bang" shots sounds of the day. 

Well, that's my story and I sticking with it. This does not preclude other shots, other planted evidence or simultaneous shots, or shots that were not simultaneous but were heard simultaneously, or shots from muffled weapons. 

My own take is two gunman from behind fired at JFK-JBC, and diversionary gunfire, likely from a snub-nose .38, from the Grassy Knoll. 

 

Edited by Benjamin Cole
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael, unfortunately I can't see that diagram without signing up for an account. 

Pat, thanks. I've read your website (whatever the website version of "cover to cover" is) a couple of times, and for whatever reason don't seem able to recall that notion of CE399 causing the back wound and literally dropping out.  Maybe I've heard Cyril dismiss the idea too many times - he's very convincing :) . Or that the throat wound was an exit wound from an earlier shot to the head... that does work with my thoughts on what might have happened.

There seems to be some (almost) consensus that JBC was only hit once. I'm fairly sure that in the recent Through The Looking Glass, one of the experts, (I think it was Dolce) who worked for the WC but was kicked out for not toeing the party line, said that he believed that JBC's wounds were caused by two shots.

One of the points about the firecrackers that I think gets overlooked is that if you look back at the earliest press reports (as opposed to broadcast news) some of the first written copies from the reporters in the motorcade seemed to think that "several bursts of automatic gunfire" happened. (That dooky was very quickly shut down, obviously, and the "Three shots" story became the true legend.) I have no scientific means to back this up, but that sounds to me like the possibility of three or more non-equidistant shots fired simultaneously. Depending on where you are standing you might hear one shot, or maybe a three-shot burst. And, of course, despite the single shot bolt action rifle found in the TSBD and CE399 subconsciously pushing people toward thinking that all the shots were fired from similar weapons, there is no evidence that any of the wounds WERE the result of a bolt action weapon, and anyone else involved could have been using any sort of rifle. Diversionary devices wouldn't be needed if the shooters WERE using semi automatic weapons...

So my thoughts are... either six or seven shots fired, three teams of two with either a seventh acting as overall spotter or the spotter with best line of sight coordinating volleys.

Volley one. Shot from GK hits Kennedy in the throat, shot from behind hits Kennedy in the back, 2nd shot from behind misses causes damage to limo. OR... given what Pat said about the hairline/exit, maybe that was the case rather than the GK front shot. Though the subsequent tales of the Parkland Doctors saying years later that it was a wound of entry, still give me pause on that.

Volley two. Shot from behind misses, wounds Tague, 2nd shot from behind hits Connelly. Shooter on GK either loses line of sight or misses.

Volley/Shot three. Third shooter on GK loses line of sight due to road sign, so waits, reacquires target, and hits Kennedy with fatal head shot or using semi automatic rifle makes his third and final shot.

This way all the shots, bar the final, will sound like they come from the closest location to the witness. And to many, will sound like either "bursts" or firecrackers" causing the disparity in recalled number of shots. What sounds like the third and final shot will come almost on top of the "second". The more focused sound of the final shot coming from the GK would give the witnesses a direction to run toward.

The only thing is, I can't get the idea out of my head what Dolce said about JBC being hit by two shots.

I have no idea beyond the "Lower floor of the DalTex building" for where the other shooter behind the motorcade would be, even assuming that one shooter was even in the TSBD "snipers nest".

Ben, with the notion of the front shots being diversionary, are you saying that you think the head shot was from behind?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Thanks Michael, that's a really interesting spread of possibilities.

 

(Edited to add:) I notice none of the suggested shots come from a careless Secret Service agent coincidentally discharging an assault rifle in the direction of the President.

Edited by Tommy Tomlinson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

Tommy,

Conally was shot by a minimum of two shots...possibly 3.No way does a bullet turn left & end up in his left thigh.

I have to say, in my less than expert opinion there is a moment when he turns to look at JFK where a line could be drawn from one of the upper windows that would potentially line up the wounds. I've had that image thrown in my face to back up the "Magic Bullet" theory, despite JBC adopting that position several seconds AFTER Kennedy is hit in the throat meaning the bullet had to sit there, hovering in mid air, waiting for the ideal moment to cause the maximum damage to Conally. My gut feeling is that he was hit twice, however, and certainly don't think a bullet that had caused so much damage (including the "tumbling" wound to the back) would neatly bury its way to his femur, and bounce back out completely unscathed. 

And that is one of the things that I can't seem to find any evidence for.

I think we are mostly on the same page that CE399 didn't do what the WC said it did... so what happened to the REAL bullet that caused the wound in JBC's leg?

Edited by Tommy Tomlinson
Typos...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

I have to say, in my less than expert opinion there is a moment when he turns to look at JFK where a line could be drawn from one of the upper windows that would potentially line up the wounds. I've had that image thrown in my face to back up the "Magic Bullet" theory, despite JBC adopting that position several seconds AFTER Kennedy is hit in the throat meaning the bullet had to sit there, hovering in mid air, waiting for the ideal moment to cause the maximum damage to Conally. My gut feeling is that he was hit twice, however, and certainly don't think a bullet that had caused so much damage (including the "tumbling" wound to the back) would neatly bury its way to his femur, and bounce back out completely unscathed. 

And that is one of the things that I can't seem to find any evidence for.

I think we are mostly on the same page that CE399 didn't do what the WC said it did... so what happened to the REAL bullet that caused the wound in JBC's leg?

It didn't match the Carcano rifle,so it disappeared like the others.

Edited by Michael Crane
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess so, but while there is so much "I was there" material available from Parkland medical staff, you'd think at some point someone would have said "I was one of the people who treated the Governor while the others were trying to save the president, and that bullet presented by them fellas in the Warren Report don't look a damned thing like the one we pulled from his leg... and no one on that highly professional medical team would have been dumb enough to drop it in a corridor and lose it!"

I just think that, given just how much we now know about that day and the subsequent events and investigations, that this specific area, (that if opened up would blow the single bullet theory into a million public pieces) hardly seems to have made a ripple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From Arnold Rowlands WC testimony….E27E03FC-2C8D-47D5-9167-E7520836C1AA.thumb.jpeg.224680b74b38c2d30126ef12cd763db9.jpeg

also…604665F7-1F7D-4C54-BBA9-D3B03EFDF14C.thumb.jpeg.2f24ce76adb5f30234495977ebd2dcee.jpeg

Malcolm Wallace! Mauser! Shot a twisted JC hence weird wounds!

Theres a dubious pic out there somewhere with a hazy man’s face in the SW window, with a corresponding ceiling light above him? Can’t for the life of me find it tho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sean Coleman said:

Theres a dubious pic out there somewhere with a hazy man’s face in the SW window, with a corresponding ceiling light above him? Can’t for the life of me find it tho.

I think there was a blurry/grainy picture of a man standing in the window on the 6th floor that I have not seen in awhile.Could this be the picture that you are talking about?

PHOTO OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD IN WINDOW AFTER JFK ASSASSINATION – FAKE! |  Vince Palamara

 

Edited by Michael Crane
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...