Which came first, the bus or the Rambler?

[Sandy Larsen]

21 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

But you do presume to know what the CIA did, and what it wanted to do, namely to recruit a false defector who possessed:

• an American background
• and a knowledge of Russian that would allow him to understand what was being said around him.

You also presume to know how the CIA went about achieving that goal:

• recruit four people instead of just one,
• and set up a complicated decade-long scheme involving two pairs of doppelgangers, instead of just letting the one person learn Russian.

 

We don't presume to know any of those things. We hypothesize those things based on the evidence we have.

You are the one doing the presuming, by stating we are wrong.

What qualifies you to claim what the CIA would or wouldn't do?

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

Quote

We don't presume to know any of those things.

But you are claiming that those things happened. The 'Harvey and Lee' theory claims that the CIA wanted to recruit a false defector who had an American background and an understanding of Russian.

Is that not what the theory claims?

The theory also claims that the CIA's method of recruiting one false defector was to recruit four people - two Oswald doppelgangers and two Marguerite doppelgangers - and keep the double-doppelganger charade going for over a decade.

Is that not what the theory claims?

The theory also claims that the CIA's decision, to recruit one person with an American background who knew Russian, was made roughly a decade before the defector would actually be required to defect.

Is that not what the theory claims?

We know that there were millions of people with genuine American backgrounds. We know that a decade is more than enough time to acquire the level of Russian that the CIA's supposed plan required. The CIA would have known these things too, wouldn't they?

The CIA would also have known that all they needed to do was to recruit one genuine American and get him to learn Russian. The CIA would have worked this out pretty quickly, wouldn't they?

But, according to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, the CIA decided not to take advantage of this simple and obvious solution. According to the theory, the CIA decided to do something much more complicated instead.

Unfortunately, the theory doesn't offer any explanation of why the CIA would have gone to all this trouble. As far as I'm aware, the cult's holy book contains nothing about this. None of the believers on this forum have been able to offer an explanation either. Why is this part of the theory missing?

The CIA's supposed decision to set up a long-term project involving two pairs of doppelgangers isn't some trivial detail. It is the central element of the theory. If there really was such a project, there must have been a reason for its existence. But no-one seems to know what that reason was.

Why is the 'Harvey and Lee' theory unable to explain this?

-----

Returning from the realm of doppelgangered fantasy to the real world and the subject of this thread, Ed's scenario makes a lot of sense:

Quote

Since Beckley bus stopped at Elm and Houston it would have been there about about 12:46 giving Beckley bus 20 minutes to get Lee to Jefferson Blvd and a minute or two to walk to theater and buy a ticket, then Butch Burroughs sees Lee at 1:07 sells him popcorn at 1:15

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

But you are claiming that those things happened.

 

I don't claim that any of those things happened. I hypothesize that some of them did.

The one thing that I personally claim -- which I do because of the overwhelming evidence -- is that there were two child LHOs.

 

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The 'Harvey and Lee' theory claims that the CIA wanted to recruit a false defector who had an American background and an understanding of Russian.

Is that not what the theory claims?

 

(First, AFAIK the theory doesn't claim that the express purpose of the program was to produce a fake defector. Though history shows that it did do just that.)

 

The theory hypothesizes a number of those things you listed. But a hypothesis isn't a claim. It's a possibility that fits the known data.

When you state that these hypotheses are inconsistent with what the CIA would do, you are making a claim... as opposed to a hypothesis. Which is the reason why I ask what qualifies you to make such claims.

 

[John Butler]

On 6/1/2022 at 1:30 PM, Sean Coleman said:

LHO’s teeth should have its own thread, and John…you be de man

Thanks Sean,

Sorry I haven't answered sooner.  I have been under the weather with a stomach virus.  This is an old idea on the forum.  Sandy Larsen did major work on this and gave us conclusive proof of two Oswalds by looking at their teeth.  Others, I believe Jim Hargrove and David Josephs, contributed a lot also.  My contribution is finding a second photo of Lee Oswald with missing teeth.  When that was done the "pen cap" speculation was finished.

Examining photos and interpreting what that photo shows is less worthy in courts than witness statements and documentary evidence.  However, the kind of evidence presented here is factual and clearly shows that there was a Harvey and a Lee. 

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The theory hypothesizes a number of those things you listed. But a hypothesis isn't a claim. It's a possibility that fits the known data.

When you state that these hypotheses are inconsistent with what the CIA would do, you are making a claim... as opposed to a hypothesis. Which is the reason why I ask what qualifies you to make such claims.

Sandy,

That's our man.  Jeremy must have worked for the CIA?  Well, otherwise he wouldn't be making such preposterous claims on a continual basis.  Should we ask him?  Or, is this line of thinking too offensive?

Back to reality, I don't think that is the case.  Jeremy demonstrates a lack of Spy vs Spy understanding.  A fake defector such as Harvey Oswald would have to pass the muster of the KGB in order to stay in Russia and not be charged with being a spy.  His cover story would have stand up to questioning by the KGB.

His cover story would have to pass muster and he would need to offer the Soviets something to be attractive to them.  Lee Harvey Oswald's entire military career had to do with aircraft maintenance and repair, radar technology, U2 information, and the defense information concerning the American defense of the Pacific Ocean, including Japan, Philippines, Taiwan, and the western coast of the US. 

The idea that the Soviets were not interested in the information Oswald had is ludicrous.  If they paid thousands of dollars for a field manual on drill and ceremony then they would certainly be interested in Oswald's information.    

 

[Ed LeDoux]

Of course the problem with Lee waiting on the hill to be able to run down and grab a ride with the negro would require luck or planning that isnt possible.

Lee as noted was stopped and is atop Revill's list.

Its shakey ground for Lee to know when or if he could go out and meet a ride. 

Did he call before lunch, and just happened to be on the knoll when Rambler Man rolls by.... 

Bus is far more reliable even with the parade traffic. 

I believe Lee took the Beckley bus as its the most logical.

Makes sense for a bus rider to take a bus. Bus going closest to the Texas Theater....Beckley Bus.

Beckley bus stops at the Daltex on corner across from TSBD.

Seems a logical lead... especially seeing McWatters recants any ID of Lee and was instead IDing Roy Milton Jones. 

Jones doesnt answer his phone and wont return calls.

Add to this the bus drivers and cabbies are all in one garage at Dallas Transit and easy to interview. So its odd as hell no one in any law enforcement capacity ever spoke to the Beckley route driver.

Him/Her being directly behind the Marsalis bus on Elm.

Him/Her driving Lee to and from work twice a day during the weeks leading up to the assassinstion.

Rumors or report of Man carring long carton on the bus.

Rumors of where Lee lived or didnt.

Yet no interest in a witness that could possibly clear up questions.

Ask why was there a Beckley Bus Blackout!? Who was this driver and what did they see or not see to cause such a gapping maw in the evidence. 

Timing of the bus and its route would be an anchor for Warren Omission Commission. 

Cheers,

Ed

PS here is Jones in the yearbook 

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Ed LeDoux said:

Of course the problem with Lee waiting on the hill to be able to run down and grab a ride with the negro would require luck or planning that isnt possible.

Lee as noted was stopped and is atop Revill's list.

Its shakey ground for Lee to know when or if he could go out and meet a ride. 

Did he call before lunch, and just happened to be on the knoll when Rambler Man rolls by.... 

Bus is far more reliable even with the parade traffic. 

I believe Lee took the Beckley bus as its the most logical.

Makes sense for a bus rider to take a bus. Bus going closest to the Texas Theater....Beckley Bus.

Beckley bus stops at the Daltex on corner across from TSBD.

Seems a logical lead... especially seeing McWatters recants any ID of Lee and was instead IDing Roy Milton Jones. 

Jones doesnt answer his phone and wont return calls.

Add to this the bus drivers and cabbies are all in one garage at Dallas Transit and easy to interview. So its odd as hell no one in any law enforcement capacity ever spoke to the Beckley route driver.

Him/Her being directly behind the Marsalis bus on Elm.

Him/Her driving Lee to and from work twice a day during the weeks leading up to the assassinstion.

Rumors or report of Man carring long carton on the bus.

Rumors of where Lee lived or didnt.

Yet no interest in a witness that could possibly clear up questions.

Ask why was there a Beckley Bus Blackout!? Who was this driver and what did they see or not see to cause such a gapping maw in the evidence. 

Timing of the bus and its route would be an anchor for Warren Omission Commission. 

Ed this is interesting. First a couple of points that could support what you say. First, one of the black employees of TSBD, I think James Jarman, in testimony I think to HSCA said Oswald left on a bus from the front door of the TSBD. That would agree with your reconstruction.

And second, your comments on why was the Beckley bus that Oswald took every day, etc. not called before the Warren Commission, nor (to my knowledge) is there any FBI interview of that bus driver--excellent point. 

But--on the other hand are the problems I see in the specific reconstruction. How do you interpret Earlene Roberts who said she saw Oswald enter the rooming house? She said so same day, and strikes me as an average person being honest. And what about the reports of Oswald's interrogations in which he said he changed clothes there, in agreement with what Earlene Robert said she saw? Furthermore, I have written up an argument that supports a change of shirt and jacket at the Beckley St. rooming house: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27754-the-jackets-as-exculpation-of-oswald-as-the-tippit-killer-an-analysis/.

I agree on the need to find a way in which Oswald got to the Texas Theatre "early" (earlier than what I regard as the non-Oswald killer of Tippit and intended killer of Oswald who went past Brewer's store and into the Texas Theatre up into the balcony, after Oswald was already in the main seating area). That "early" arrival of Oswald to the Texas Theatre can be accounted for by (a) the Whaley cab ride, for which his trip records have a trip consistent with Oswald going to the neighborhood of the rooming house, and (b) Oswald after his quick stop to change shirt and jacket, took a bus south on Beckley to the Texas Theatre. 

What do you think of this alternative explanation of the logistics, compared to your own, in terms of pros and cons? Anyway, thanks for your original thinking.

 

[Ed LeDoux]

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Ed this is interesting. First a couple of points that could support what you say. First, one of the black employees of TSBD, I think James Jarman, in testimony I think to HSCA said Oswald left on a bus from the front door of the TSBD. That would agree with your reconstruction.

And second, your comments on why was the Beckley bus that Oswald took every day, etc. not called before the Warren Commission, nor (to my knowledge) is there any FBI interview of that bus driver--excellent point. 

But--on the other hand are the problems I see in the specific reconstruction. How do you interpret Earlene Roberts who said she saw Oswald enter the rooming house?

 

SHE SAW SOMEONE I HAVE GRAVE DOUBTS SHE WOULD BE A GOOD WITNESS WHEN CALLED TO THE STAND.

 

 

She said so same day, and strikes me as an average person being honest.

 

SHE WASNT AVERAGE.

SHE WAS OLDER HAD HEALTH AND EYESIGHT ISSUES 

NOT AVERAGE EITHER IS HER NOTE SHOWING THE ROOM  RENTAL.

 

And what about the reports of Oswald's interrogations in which he said he changed clothes there, in agreement with what Earlene Robert said she saw?

HE FIRST SAID HE TOOK A BUS 

THEN THEY HAD HIM TAKE A CAB 

THEN CHANGE HIS BRITCHES 

THEN CHANGE HIS SHIRT.

 

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

 

Furthermore, I have written up an argument that supports a change of shirt and jacket at the Beckley St. rooming house: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27754-the-jackets-as-exculpation-of-oswald-as-the-tippit-killer-an-analysis/.

Great my thesis still stands that he never lived there or do you have new witnesses or new interviews.

If not you can prove nothing except he stops by and was turned away.

He had the number in his booklet but never called? Why have the number if your not calling about the room for rent eh Greg?

 

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I agree on the need to find a way in which Oswald got to the Texas Theatre "early" (earlier than what I regard as the non-Oswald killer of Tippit and intended killer of Oswald who went past Brewer's store and into the Texas Theatre up into the balcony, after Oswald was already in the main seating area).

BUTCH BURROUGHS SAID HE CANT SEE ANYONE COME IN AND THE STAIRS TAKE YOU UP THEN DOWN TO MAIN OR ORCHESTRA. D

SO OF COURSE HE DIDNT SEE HIM ENTER. HE COULDNT.

BUT DID SEE HIM IN RELATION TO THE MOVIE-CARTOON/NEWS REEL ETC.

1:07 IN THE ORCHESTRA

1:15 SELLS LEE POPCORN

 

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

That "early" arrival of Oswald to the Texas Theatre can be accounted for by (a) the Whaley cab ride, for which his trip records have a trip consistent with Oswald going to the neighborhood of the rooming house, and (b) Oswald after his quick stop to change shirt and jacket, took a bus south on Beckley to the Texas Theatre. 

WHALEY LOGS HAVE HIM LEAVING BUS STATION BEFORE LEE LEFT THE DEPOSITORY.

NO AMOUNT OF ROUNDING HELPS THE STORY OF WHALEY DRIVING A DIFFERENT PERSON TO NEELY ST AND THAT PERSON CROSSING BECKLEY AND CONTINUING AWAY FROM 1026 DOESNT EITHER.

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

What do you think of this alternative explanation of the logistics, compared to your own, in terms of pros and cons? Anyway, thanks for your original thinking.

 

NO WORRIES 

IT HAS TOO MANY LOGISTICAL AND TESTIMONIAL PROBLEMS.

THE BUS PASS ALONE SHOULD MAKE YOU DISTRUST THE DPD WC VERSION WITH ALL DUE HASTE.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Ed LeDoux
Bold face easier to diffentiate

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

Quote

The theory hypothesizes a number of those things you listed. But a hypothesis isn't a claim. It's a possibility that fits the known data.

And it's a very weak hypothesis, because it fails to explain why the event postulated by the hypothesis would have taken place.

It postulates that in around 1950 the CIA set up a long-term project involving two pairs of doppelgangers. But it doesn't explain why any rational organisation would have done this.

The ultimate goal (as far as I can tell) would have been to create a false defector who had a plausible American background and the ability to understand the Russian that would be spoken around him once he defected.

If that was the ultimate goal, two uncontroversial facts show that the CIA would have had no reason to set up a complicated scheme involving doppelgangers, as the theory proposes, because a far simpler and more obvious solution existed. There were millions of Americans whose American backgrounds were as plausible as it's possible to be, and the decade or so that the supposed project took would have been more than enough time for one of those Americans to have learned Russian.

I presume Sandy agrees with me that there is no chance that the CIA, or any other organisation, would have failed to work out that the simplest way to obtain a false defector of the sort proposed was to recruit an American and get him to learn Russian.

Quote

When you state that these hypotheses are inconsistent with what the CIA would do, you are making a claim... as opposed to a hypothesis.

My claim is that there is no good reason to believe that any rational organisation would have set up a long-term project involving two pairs of doppelgangers, because a far simpler and more obvious alternative existed.

It's the 'Harvey and Lee' theory that nominates the CIA as the organisation which set up such a project. But the theory doesn't explain why any organisation (the CIA, the Boy Scouts, Laurel and Hardy's Sons of the Desert, whoever) would have done this.

The onus is on the 'Harvey and Lee' theory to come up with a plausible explanation for what it claims the CIA did: namely, set up a long-term project involving two pairs of doppelgangers.

Until such an explanation emerges, the theory is incoherent.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

John Butler writes:

Quote

A fake defector such as [the one and only Lee] Harvey Oswald would have to pass the muster of the KGB in order to stay in Russia and not be charged with being a spy.  His cover story would have stand up to questioning by the KGB.

Exactly! The need for a cover story is why, according to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, the false defector needed to have a plausible American background.

So why didn't they just send to the Soviet Union someone with an absolutely bullet-proof cover story: a genuine American who had a genuine American background? That would have saved everyone a lot of bother, wouldn't it?

What reason could the CIA (or the Boy Scouts, or the Sons of the Desert) have had for not doing that?

Personally, I can't think of a good reason for not sending over a genuine American (such as ... um, let's see ... ah yes ... the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald). Sandy and Jim can't think of a good reason either. Even Messrs Armstrong and White couldn't think of a good reason, and they're the ones who came up with the theory.

Can John think of a good reason for not using a genuine American?

[Ed LeDoux]

Truly can't report Lee missing until 12:45, when the lunch break officially ends.

Mr. Campbell in an interview gave that away.
 

So it looks like a 12:40 Rambler ride is a non-starter.

 

Oh btw 

Craig doesnt call in a suspicious vehicle.

He doesnt put out an apb on any driver nor the passenger.

He waits till he's downtown at DPD to make an ID on the subject in custody.... and even then no RAMBLER is called in.

No search for or radio messages to keep a look out for Ramblers with Dark Complected Drivers.

Should Craig have gotten a description out or was it fine to wait?

Similarly another gap exists in the Bus Cab Creation.

Was the Bus driver on the Beckley bus oblivious to Scoggins, Whaley and McWatters plight? 

That driver had no idea???

No clue they drove Oswald from 1026 Beckley every week day twice a day except Friday.... nope, not noticeable at all that schedule.

Its like he/she was told to shut up or dies early 64. No peep about him or her on the Dallas bus driver forums.

Here was Mrs Roberts telling the police the man stood at the bus stop.  ON BECKLEY

Heading downtown. 

ON A BECKLEY BUS... but nothing follows. No interest in supporting or denying Roberts claim?! 

Likely it was a roomer by the name of Hebert Leon Lee whom ran in to get his jacket to go downtown and see the assassination scene.

Mr. Lee calls his girlfriend from a phone nearby the Plaza soon afterwards and tells her about it.

Mr H. Lee from room O

or O•H.Lee  

Kinda like that slip of paper Earlene made up, and Mrs Johnson wanted to sell. Sell to recoup linen loss.

I sheet you not!

Ed

[Ed LeDoux]

Thanks everyone for all the assistance with the question.

Warren Omissions mention of the Beckley Bus?

Twice:

"The Marsalis bus which Oswald boarded traveled a route west on Elm, south on Houston, and southwest across the Houston viaduct to service the Oak Cliff area along Marsalis.440 A Beckley bus which also served the Oak Cliff area, followed the same route as the Marsalis bus through downtown Dallas, except that it continued west on Elm, across Houston in front of the Depository Building, past the Triple Underpass into west Dallas, and south on Beckley.441 Marsalis Street is seven blocks from Beckley.442 Oswald lived at 1026 North Beckley.443 He could not reach his roominghouse on the Marsalis bus, but the Beckley bus stopped across the street.444 According to McWatters, the Beckley bus was behind the Marsalis bus, but he did not actually see it.445 Both buses stopped within one block of the Depository Building. Instead of waiting there, Oswald apparently went as far away as he could and boarded the first Oak Cliff bus which came along rather than wait for one which stopped across the street from his roominghouse."

AND IN RELATION TO THE SUPPOSED WALKER NOTE THAT I SAY HAS RUTHS FINGERPRINTS ALL OVER IT.

"Oswald had apparently mistaken the county jail for the city jail. From Neely Street the Oswalds would have traveled downtown on the Beckley bus, across the Commerce Street viaduct and into downtown Dallas through the Triple Underpass.713 Either the viaduct or the underpass might have been the "bridge" mentioned in the last paragraph of the note. The county jail is at the corner of Houston and Main Streets "right in the beginning of the city" after one travels through the underpass."


So again here is the bus Lee and Marina take when they are said to be living together at Neely St.
Lee is said to carry a rifle in a raincoat but lets not ask the Beckley bus drivers about that.
Lee and Marina would take this bus downtown on other occasions and Marina even pointed out the Beckley rooming house as a place she recognised on that bus route. It was near the corner she remembers.

No clue as to the Bus drivers knowlege though.
Shucks he-she could probably answer Steve's question on the first page of this bloated thread. But I digress ever brief as it were.

Cheers
Ed

Edited June 5, 2022 by Ed LeDoux
Italics for quotes

[Greg Doudna]

Ed weren't there a lot of personally identifiable Oswald belongings found by multiple police at that room on Beckley the afternoon of the assassination? If that was someone else's room not Oswald's wouldn't those officers have realized that?

Where do you think he was living?

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Exactly! The need for a cover story is why, according to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, the false defector needed to have a plausible American background.

The cover story had two aspects.  First, there is who Harvey Oswald was actually.  And secondly, what did he have to offer.  Here is something I did some time back and might be interesting enough to re-read:

What did Lee Oswald know that would interest the Soviets. 

First off, one thing needs to be made clear.  The Soviets would have interrogated Oswald when he defected into the Soviet Union.  The Russians claimed that they didn’t.  Some like Peter Vronsky say this in Lee Harvey Oswald in Russia to justify the Russians not interrogating Oswald.

“The problem is that we give the KGB more credit than they deserve. Like any other government bureaucracy, the KGB was frequently riddled with jurisdictional disputes, laziness, departmental rivalry, and miscommunication where one hand did not know what the other was doing.  One of the most frequent comments heard from the KGB officials on the issue of Oswald is:  if only they had known the details of Oswald's military experience, they would have taken a greater interest in him.  But they did not know, or at least, not the right KGB people knew. The KGB was no more efficient than any other Cold War superpower intelligence service - which is saying that largely they were incompetent.”

This is simply not believable.  Vronsky also mentions that intelligence gathering was not a function of the KGB and then says its main responsibility was internal security.  Well, does that mean they would not suspect Oswald of being a spy?  Nonsense.

Oswald was a US defector and as such the reason for his defection could be a threat to the internal security of the Soviet Union. And, this the reason why Oswald would have been interrogated extensively.  That interrogation would have continued in a more exhaustive fashion if they got a hint that he may be an intelligence agent.   

The Russians knew Lee Oswald from his time in Japan at Atsugi Naval Station.  Atsugi was the biggest CIA/Military Intelligence post in Asia.  There were many super-secret intelligence projects operating there when Lee Oswald was there.  Harvey as far as I know was never there.

At Atsugi Lee Oswald came into contact with Russian foreign agents in Japan.  Presumably, this information would be passed on to the KGB or GRU.  Some think Oswald arranged his defection while in Japan.

Dick Russell in The Man Who Knew To Much indicates there were other adventures engaged in by Lee Oswald.  This involves a plan to convince a Soviet Colonel, Col. Nicolai Eroshkin, to defect to the US side.  Oswald was also in communication with a Soviet spy, Professor Chikao Fujisawa, in this effort to entice the Soviet Colonel to defect.

 

Jack Swike in his book, The Missing Chapter, says a Marine named Ron Crawley who knew Oswald said he got his money from black marketeering and this allowed him to frequent expensive clubs such as the Queen Bee in Tokyo.  Swike also relates that Oswald had met with Japanese and Chinese communists and this may have been the source of his income for prostitution.

 

These incidents indicate Soviet intelligence and security knew Oswald before his defection.  When Oswald showed up in Moscow as a defector he may have been already known.

 

So, what did Oswald know?

"Oswald had access to the location of all bases in the west coast areas, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stand for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of surrounding units' radio and radar...  There are some things which he knew on which he received instructions that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear... He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery call a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this.

Warren Commission Hearings Volume 8 p. 298

What’s missing from this is that Oswald also knew this information for other important bases in the Pacific- the Philippines, South China Seas, Taiwan, and Atsugi, Japan.

Lee Oswald was trained in by the Marines in two areas.  These are the Aviation Electronics Operator class and the Aircraft Control and Warning Operator Course. 

 

The duties of an Aviation Electronics Operator are Aircraft Avionics Technicians, V-22, install, remove, inspect, test, maintain, and repair systems, components, and ancillary equipment of installed Aircraft Communications/Navigation/Electrical Systems to include Deceptive Electronic Countermeasures (DECM) Systems at the OMA level.

 

This fits in with a note from Harvey and Lee site:

 

“In the fall of 1956, while HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were stationed at San Diego, LEE Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility at El Toro, CA, 10 miles south of Camp Pendleton. It was in El Toro that Sergeant Wallace Ransberger first met Private First Class LEE Oswald, and a year later associated with him at Atsugi, Japan. Ransberger and LEE Oswald were assigned to the same unit and their duties were to furnish repair parts for vehicles and generators.”

 

There is something of interest to note here.  Lee Oswald in a PFC in the fall of 1956.  This is not possible if he joined the Marines in late Oct., 1956.  This indicates there is a hidden record for Lee Oswald who may have joined the Marines at age 16 in about March, 1956 or shortly thereafter.  It also indicates he was working in this field before he received the training for it. 

 

Lee Oswald must have had some competence in electronics and mechanical repair to be assigned as indicated in the Harvey and Lee note.  Compare that to Harvey’s record of mechanical incompetence in not being able to drive a car.  This notion will become more important as we continue with this essay.

 

The Russians would have been interested in any knowledge that could be obtained from Oswald.  Anything about Atsugi, Japan would have been of great interest to the Soviets.  What was available at Atsugi, Japan that Oswald might have had knowledge of interest. 

 

Atsugi Naval Air Station was the largest CIA operation in the Pacific.  Many other intelligence agencies were there in including the ONI and Air Force Intelligence.

 

At Atsugi were many complex super-secret projects.  The first to be discussed will be MK-Ultra and its main unit at Atsugi.  This was the largest CIA operation of about 1,000 people who were stationed at Atsugi.  They were known as the Joint Technical Advisory Group.

 

H. E. Jensen in a book called Atsugi Assassins talks about this group and Lee Oswald.  This is the book description from Amazon.com:

 

“Atsugi Assassins looks at the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and their much denied MKULTRA mind-control program. Used unknowingly as a test subject, the author offers insights into how Lee Harvey Oswald was also victimized by the MKULTRA that operated at Atsugi Naval Air Station in Japan. Jensen also exposes the lies and cover-up by the Warren Commission and others, including former CIA Director Allen Dulles and President Lyndon Johnson, in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. This book exonerates Oswald and shows that he was an honorable Marine and died in what he thought was the line of duty.”

 

Oswald may have been introduced to MKULTRA in New York as a teenager in the early 1950s.

 

The CIA had a U2 spy plane unit at Atsugi, Japan.  The first U2s were deployed to Atsugi, Japan in March, 1957 before Lee Oswald came to Japan. 

 

There are people who say that Lee Oswald did not know anything about the U2 spy plane and therefore could not have told the Russians anything about its characteristics.  That is not true.  Lee Oswald was involved with radar operation and the U2 from the time he arrived in Japan and until he left the service.  As noted earlier he had been trained as an Aviation Electronics Operator.  This includes aircraft maintenance and repair.

 

Here is an important point that most people overlook when they think about Oswald and the U2.  Lee Oswald was assigned to the same barracks as the U2 flight and maintenance crew.  How hard would it be to infiltrate this group and learn what secrets he could?  After all he had worked in the same area and it would be easy to befriend the U2 crew and discuss work.  How about a beer after work?  And, then in discussion mention your work in aircraft maintenance.  So, how about yours?

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

[The H&L theory] postulates that in around 1950 the CIA set up a long-term project involving two pairs of doppelgangers. But it doesn't explain why any rational organisation would have done this.

 

There are any number of goals the CIA may have had to do this. I described one possibility that you didn't like. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it is wrong.