Forum member J. Cohen makes astonishing revelation about Jeremy Bojczuk

[Jim Hargrove]

In the post shown above, forum member Jonathan Cohen wrote that he and Jeremy Bojczuk "have always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life."

Mr. Bojczuk, who for years has been attempting to deny almost every part of Harvey and Lee has, so far, declined to comment on this in the topic it was posted in, so I've started a new thread to give him another opportunity.

Is it true, Jeremy, that you and Jonathan Cohen "have always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life?"

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life.

I wonder if that goes back to grade school in their thinking?  If so, why would a second grade student be impersonated?  What would they say?  Has JB gone over to conspiracy thinking?  Is he dragging JC along with him?

Enquiring minds want to know.

PS

Jim,

You say that JB says you and John Armstrong wear "tin foil hats".  I was wondering should we get JB and JC "tin foil hats" since they are coming over, however slightly, to the view that Oswald was impersonated at various times in his life.  Amazon has those type of hats.  They are available if they want one.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by John Butler

[Denny Zartman]

in my opinion, if Oswald was being impersonated before JFK's presidency as the Hoover memo implies, that is circumstantial evidence supporting the Harvey and Lee theory.

[Jonathan Cohen]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Is it true, Jeremy, that you and Jonathan Cohen "have always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life?"

THIS is what passes for “astonishing” in “Harvey and Lee” land? I said we agree that there is EVIDENCE Oswald was impersonated. That’s a big difference than saying he WAS impersonated, but nuance doesn’t seem to be a tool wielded very often by you and your devotees…

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks for coming back, Jonathan!  I have to admit that I believe EVIDENCE is more important than "nuance."  But why argue about semantics?

Again, please tell me about the EVIDENCE you and Mr. Bojczuk have always agreed on that Oswald was impersonated, as you say, "at various points in his life."  Let me offer, again, a list of suggestions to get you started.  Do you agree with any of these instances, or are you referring to different evidence?

1. Way back in 1948, one LHO was living at 101 San Saba in Benbrook while the other was at 3330 Willig St. (and then 7408 Ewing) in Fort Worth.

2. In 1953 the Russian-speaking LHO (Harvey) was sent to Youth House for truancy, fled to Stanley, North Dakota to avoid further entanglement with the NYC legal system, and started attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans that fall, all the while the American-born LHO (Lee) had good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC.

3. During the fall semester of 1954, Harvey attended Stripling School in Fort Worth while Lee attended Beauregard School in New Orleans.

4. By the mid-1950s, both Oswalds had various sometimes conflicting jobs, which eventually required the FBI to destroy all the original employment (and school) records for both young men and to create a false employment and education legend. The Social Security Administration refused to corroborate the Official Story® of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

5. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: My favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan. Other examples from USMC unit diaries and testimony show how the two LHOs associated with completely different groups of Marines both early and late in their enlistment periods.

6. While Russian-speaking HARVEY was in the Soviet Union, American-born LEE was active briefly as an agent provocateur in NYC, working with Marita Lorenz and anti-Castro Cubans in and around Florida, visiting Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans, and much more.

7. One Oswald never had a driver’s license and could not drive while the other had a valid Texas driver’s license and could drive, including doing work for Jack Ruby in 1963 involving cars.

8. American-born LEE Oswald appeared in Baytown, TX on Labor Day weekend in 1963 attempting to purchase rifles from Fidel Castro’s friend and gun supplier Robert McKeown. At the time, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald and his family were on holiday with the Murrets at Lake Pontchartrain in Louisiana.

9. In October 1963, two different young men, both claiming to be “Lee Harvey Oswald,” appeared before Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell, the first on October 3 and again a few days later, the second on October 22. Ms Kittell told the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi that the second Oswald “looked the same,” and had “the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing.”

10. While the other Oswald was elsewhere, LEE Oswald visited the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target.

11. On Nov. 2 one LHO visited Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth.

12. Also on Nov. 2 LEE Oswald visited the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership where he test drove a car at recklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car. (Remember that Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald did not have a driver’s license.)

13. On Nov. 6 or 7 LEE Oswald visited the Irving Furniture Mart for a gun part and was referred by the ladies there to the shop where Dial Ryder worked.

14. On Nov. 15, LEE Oswald went to the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) and applied for a job and asked how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.

15. On Nov. 20 “Oswald” hitch-hiked on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4 foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introduced himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” discussed the President's visit, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already working).

16. On Nov. 22, both LHOs were in Dealey Plaza. One left in a bus and then a taxi; the other got into a Nash Rambler station wagon.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

1. Way back in 1948, one LHO was living at 101 San Saba in Benbrook while the other was at 3330 Willig St. (and then 7408 Ewing) in Fort Worth.

2. In 1953 the Russian-speaking LHO (Harvey) was sent to Youth House for truancy, fled to Stanley, North Dakota to avoid further entanglement with the NYC legal system, and started attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans that fall, all the while the American-born LHO (Lee) had good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC.

3. During the fall semester of 1954, Harvey attended Stripling School in Fort Worth while Lee attended Beauregard School in New Orleans.

4. By the mid-1950s, both Oswalds had various sometimes conflicting jobs, which eventually required the FBI to destroy all the original employment (and school) records for both young men and to create a false employment and education legend. The Social Security Administration refused to corroborate the Official Story® of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

5. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: My favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan. Other examples from USMC unit diaries and testimony show how the two LHOs associated with completely different groups of Marines both early and late in their enlistment periods.

6. While Russian-speaking HARVEY was in the Soviet Union, American-born LEE was active briefly as an agent provocateur in NYC, working with Marita Lorenz and anti-Castro Cubans in and around Florida, visiting Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans, and much more.

7. One Oswald never had a driver’s license and could not drive while the other had a valid Texas driver’s license and could drive, including doing work for Jack Ruby in 1963 involving cars.

8. American-born LEE Oswald appeared in Baytown, TX on Labor Day weekend in 1963 attempting to purchase rifles from Fidel Castro’s friend and gun supplier Robert McKeown. At the time, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald and his family were on holiday with the Murrets at Lake Pontchartrain in Louisiana.

9. In October 1963, two different young men, both claiming to be “Lee Harvey Oswald,” appeared before Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell, the first on October 3 and again a few days later, the second on October 22. Ms Kittell told the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi that the second Oswald “looked the same,” and had “the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing.”

10. While the other Oswald was elsewhere, LEE Oswald visited the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target.

11. On Nov. 2 one LHO visited Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth.

12. Also on Nov. 2 LEE Oswald visited the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership where he test drove a car at recklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car. (Remember that Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald did not have a driver’s license.)

13. On Nov. 6 or 7 LEE Oswald visited the Irving Furniture Mart for a gun part and was referred by the ladies there to the shop where Dial Ryder worked.

14. On Nov. 15, LEE Oswald went to the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) and applied for a job and asked how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.

15. On Nov. 20 “Oswald” hitch-hiked on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4 foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introduced himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” discussed the President's visit, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already working).

16. On Nov. 22, both LHOs were in Dealey Plaza. One left in a bus and then a taxi; the other got into a Nash Rambler station wagon.

 

Nice list of evidence summaries supporting the Harvey and Lee theory, Jim. All corroborating each other and supported by the J. Edgar Hoover's memo.

I would add to the list the apparent fact that one Oswald lost a tooth in a ninth grade fight, got a crown to replace it, only to have the crown fail when he was in the Marines. While the other Oswald always had a full set of natural teeth.

Source

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

 

I predict that JB and JC will soon be putting their tinfoil hats on and making their preposterous claims, that each piece of evidence -- though corroborated by the numerous others -- can be explained away by xxxxx, where xxxxx makes the evidence mean something other than what it really means.

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I have not studied items 1-6 but I thought some might find my take of interest on numbers 7-16. 

7. One Oswald never had a driver’s license and could not drive while the other had a valid Texas driver’s license and could drive, including doing work for Jack Ruby in 1963 involving cars.

The real Oswald never had a drivers license but could drive in an inexperienced way, with difficulty parallel parking. On the Texas drivers license claimed seen in the office, if that was real I would say it is evidence of an identity theft or impersonation. (An impersonation does not mean a second Oswald. It is a different person who is not a second Oswald, strategically using an alias at one or more times optionally backed up with documents.) However a simple mistake in memory or witness error needs to be excluded first. 

8. American-born LEE Oswald appeared in Baytown, TX on Labor Day weekend in 1963 attempting to purchase rifles from Fidel Castro’s friend and gun supplier Robert McKeown. At the time, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald and his family were on holiday with the Murrets at Lake Pontchartrain in Louisiana.

I have not studied this one. Suspect it was mistaken identification, not Oswald (nor impersonator claiming to be Oswald)

9. In October 1963, two different young men, both claiming to be “Lee Harvey Oswald,” appeared before Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell, the first on October 3 and again a few days later, the second on October 22. Ms Kittell told the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi that the second Oswald “looked the same,” and had “the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing.”

I have studied this much. It is clear this was not two Oswalds. It is one Oswald and one Larry Craford, pure and simple. Laura Kittrell confused the two, and that is the explanation of everything there. Witness error, witness confusion.

10. While the other Oswald was elsewhere, LEE Oswald visited the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target.

No. Oswald was never at the Sports Drome Rifle Range. Witnesses' mistaken identifications. It was not an impersonation since the person the witnesses thought was Oswald never claimed to be Oswald (no impersonation). ATF Agent Ellsworth made a good argument that the person was Thomas Masen, but in any case it was neither Oswald nor an impersonator (whoever it was never claimed to be other than himself). 

11. On Nov. 2 one LHO visited Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth.

No. Mistaken identification. Not an impersonation since the person never claimed to be Oswald or other than himself.

12. Also on Nov. 2 LEE Oswald visited the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership where he test drove a car at recklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car. (Remember that Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald did not have a driver’s license.)

Although an argument can be made this was Oswald on Nov 2, I believe the weight of testimony of Bogard of the reckless or high-speed driving is consistent only with a confident driver and is inconsistent with an uncertain or cautious inexperienced driver which Oswald seems to have been from all other evidence. (The slight chance that it still could be Oswald would suppose Bogard's testimony on the driving is distorted, but I do not think so.) This IS an impersonator. It is not a "second Oswald" in the sense of a second full-time Oswald. But it is someone who has some real identity otherwise and normally but who, on this occasion, was claiming to be Oswald. It is of extraordinary interest in a solution to the assassination that that person be identified if possible (but I do not know that person's identity).

13. On Nov. 6 or 7 LEE Oswald visited the Irving Furniture Mart for a gun part and was referred by the ladies there to the shop where Dial Ryder worked.

Monday Nov 11. Yes, really was Oswald and Marina, Lee driving Ruth Paine's car without her knowledge. Lee getting the original scope shipped with the rifle, which had previously been taken off because it was unusable, reinstalled for purposes of conveyance or resale of that rifle, and needing bore and tap because the threads had been stripped. I did an analysis of this on another topic header and I believe I have established this as fact to my satisfaction. No impersonator, no second Oswald. Incidentally, an implication (if my analysis is correct) is that this is one point upon which Marina remains not truthful to the present day--she has always denied and continues to deny she was the woman in the Furniture Mart which the two women there said were her. I believe the argument that that was Marina on Nov 11 is so strong that it outweighs whatever weight one might see in Marina's denial of that to the present day. 

14. On Nov. 15, LEE Oswald went to the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) and applied for a job and asked how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.

(That date is not certain nor known exactly.) NOT Oswald, but IS an impersonation, someone claiming to be Oswald. Not a full-time second Oswald. Someone else with a different true identity who, on that occasion and at that event, pretended to be Oswald. A possible identification could be Craford but that is uncertain; inconclusive who it was. But not Oswald. 

15. On Nov. 20 “Oswald” hitch-hiked on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4 foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introduced himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” discussed the President's visit, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already working).

This is a tough one. For reasons which must be postponed in updated explanation until later, I think the Yates' hitchhiker was not Oswald but an impersonation of Oswald. Not a second Oswald but a different person who at that specific time intended to be remembered by random witness Yates as Oswald. Despite Yates' personal breakdown which soon followed, I think Yates' hitchhiker story is mostly if not fully true. 

16. On Nov. 22, both LHOs were in Dealey Plaza. One left in a bus and then a taxi; the other got into a Nash Rambler station wagon.

No. There was only one Oswald and he got on the bus. The one who ran to the car--which actually was a green-and-white Chevy station wagon belonging to a woman who was the ex-wife of Meharg, who recognized the vehicle--the one who ran to the car was not Oswald and was not an impersonator of Oswald (never claimed to be Oswald). Roger Craig's identification of Oswald as the running man was a mistaken identification based on similarity but not identity of physical description. I believe Meharg identified the vehicle, and may have identified the most likely candidate for the man who ran to the car too. Nobody has developed this solution to the Roger Craig story other than an earlier article by Lee Farley which needs to be built on and further developed. Bottom line: Oswald went by bus and taxi to the rooming house in Oak Cliff (then to the Theatre directly not by way of killing Tippit). The man running to the green-and-white Chevy station wagon seen by several witnesses looks like possible involvement in the assassination though that is not confirmed. But that green-and-white Chevy station wagon and its driver and passengers had nothing to do with Oswald. No impersonation of Oswald or second Oswald. Roger Craig mistake in identification of the running man, even though Craig was not mistaken on the fact of the man running or the vehicle (which was not a Nash Rambler but a Chevy wagon based on the Meharg information correctly analyzed). 

There is no reason to suppose that any of the genuine impersonations (Nos. 12, 14, and 15 only among the above items listed) were done by a person who lived full-time as a second Oswald, or that each of these impersonations were necessarily done by the same person (they might have been been but that needs to be argued not assumed). i suspect all of the cases of genuine impersonation I have suggested involved intentional setup of Oswald, unknown to Oswald, by malevolent parties involved in the runup to the assassination, conceivably identifiable.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

I said we agree that there is EVIDENCE Oswald was impersonated. That’s a big difference than saying he WAS impersonated, but nuance doesn’t seem to be a tool wielded very often by you and your devotees…

When I read this, I see that you are really saying nuance (whatever that may be) is more important than evidence.  I have noticed this in your comments when you completely ignore facts and evidence presented to you by other researchers.  Would that be because various facts and pieces of evidence weren't nuanced enough for you to agree they have relevance in your way of thinking. 

So, you can say that there was evidence of Oswald being impersonated, but that doesn't count because he was impersonated in a non-nuanced way?  This about right?  

You say you have never seen any evidence of the Zapruder film being altered.  Yet, when fine fellows like Andrez Stancak posts material such as the following you still stick to your beliefs.

Another thing you might notice Jeremy is that Kennedy has a hairy brain.  There is that big flap of bone and skin hanging down there, but head and hair is still intact.

Sorry, for the crude and gruesome statements.  I told Groden and crew down in Dealey Plaza I could have painted that better.  Gee, they wouldn't talk to me afterwards.  Imagine that.  

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Nice list of evidence summaries supporting the Harvey and Lee theory, Jim. All corroborating each other and supported by the J. Edgar Hoover's memo.

I would add to the list the apparent fact that one Oswald lost a tooth in a ninth grade fight, got a crown to replace it, only to have the crown fail when he was in the Marines. While the other Oswald always had a full set of natural teeth.

Source

 

Thanks, Sandy.  How could I forget that great work you did on the missing tooth!  I’m so glad you posted a link to your essay so that anyone interested can see how strong the evidence is.  John Butler also found an interesting photo of Lee Oswald with what sure appears to be a missing tooth in New Orleans.

Btw, because of a prior commitment, I won’t be able to post much for several days after early tomorrow morning.  This would be a great time for H&L critics to declare victory several thousand times!

[Jim Hargrove]

36 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

Greg,

Thanks for the serious response to my list (I'm not sure why your words didn't post above).  I'd enjoy having a full  debate about this with you starting around next Wednesday when I will have more time available to find my evidence for this stuff.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Some links debunking "Harvey & Lee":

W. Tracy Parnell: Harvey & Lee (wtracyparnell.blogspot.com)

Debunked! (forumotion.net)

Is the 'Harvey and Lee' Theory Credible? (22november1963.org.uk)

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

When I read this, I see that you are really saying nuance (whatever that may be) is more important than evidence.  I have noticed this in your comments when you completely ignore facts and evidence presented to you by other researchers.  Would that be because various facts and pieces of evidence weren't nuanced enough for you to agree they have relevance in your way of thinking. 

So, you can say that there was evidence of Oswald being impersonated, but that doesn't count because he was impersonated in a non-nuanced way?  This about right? 

100% dead wrong. There's no other way to say this than to point out that your interpretation above is as colossally off-base as the overall "Harvey and Lee" theory. My use of the word "nuance" was meant to distinguish that evidence of Oswald imposture does not mean he was impersonated, or that reports of same are legitimate. Greg Doudna, Tracy Parnell, Greg Parker, Jeremy B and many, many others have pointed out numerous issues with the "second Oswald" sightings and/or alternative explanations for them, so there is simply no reason for me to debate them further here one by one. But please, let the "Harvey and Lee" gang continue talking amongst themselves...

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

Is it true, Jeremy, that you and Jonathan Cohen "have always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life?"

What a bizarre topic to start a thread about!

I can't speak for Jonathan, but I think there's credible evidence that Oswald was impersonated at least once in Mexico City, and perhaps also in Dallas. I'm not convinced that the Mexico City impersonation(s) were done with the assassination in mind, though they may have been. Any impersonations in Dallas would have been ad hoc affairs, done to implicate Oswald as someone who might go on to shoot a president.

None of them, of course, could have been done as part of a long-term project involving two pairs of doppelgangers, because such a project could never have been implemented, as I've explained on several different threads, such as this one:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26056-evidence-for-harvey-and-lee-please-debate-the-specifics-right-here-dont-just-claim-someone-else-has-debunked-it/?do=findComment&comment=429433

Jim has so far failed to come up with an explanation of why anyone would have set up a long-term project involving doppelgangers when a far simpler and cheaper alternative existed. Would he care to start a new thread to discuss that topic? Or can we assume that Jim agrees that a 'Harvey and Lee'-style project could never have happened?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim also writes that I have "declined to comment on this in the topic it was posted in".

I'm sorry to disappoint Jim, but I don't hang around here all day with my metaphorical shovel and bucket, waiting for the next steaming pile of 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense to be deposited on the forum. I check the forum most mornings, scribble whatever I feel like scribbling, then I get on with more interesting and productive (and usually non-JFK-related) activities. I very rarely visit this forum more than once a day.

Why did Jim expect an instant reply? Why was he so worked up about something so trivial as what Jonathan and I think about impersonations? Bearing in mind Jim's recent thread in which he seemed to think that the lizard people had been plotting against him to censor his comments, is he feeling OK?

Or was it just an excuse to start yet another 'Harvey and Lee' thread, re-hashing the same old nonsense that has been discussed ad nauseam on numerous other threads?

If he wants to discuss something, he could start by answering the question he has been avoiding. What was the thinking behind the supposed 'Harvey and Lee' project? Why did the masterminds decide to go with a long-term plan involving two pairs of doppelgangers when they had a far simpler solution available?