Jean Rene Souetre expelled from the US 18hrs after JFKA?!

[Paul Brancato]

Steve - thanks for locating the thread where I quoted the oral history on Crichton that was actually misfiled in the 6th floor museum because they misspelled Crichton. It seems to me that wondering about whether Crichton’s Intelligence Unit was the 488th MID misses the main point, which is looking closely at Crichton and his association with DPD detectives. Btw it was probably Dorothe Matlack, ACSI - Army chief of staff Intelligence at the Pentagon. She pops up later in what Joan Mellen dug up in Our Man in Haiti, which is that she was present with George DeMohrenschildt along with a few others in the spring of 1963. I don’t have the book in front of me now. Dorothe wasn’t Brandstetter’s ACSI ‘big brother’ that he reported to for decades, the one that assigned him to the 488th after he returned from Cuba. That was some other Colonel. 

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - thanks for locating the thread where I quoted the oral history on Crichton that was actually misfiled in the 6th floor museum because they misspelled Crichton. It seems to me that wondering about whether Crichton’s Intelligence Unit was the 488th MID misses the main point, which is looking closely at Crichton and his association with DPD detectives. Btw it was probably Dorothe Matlack, ACSI - Army chief of staff Intelligence at the Pentagon. She pops up later in what Joan Mellen dug up in Our Man in Haiti, which is that she was present with George DeMohrenschildt along with a few others in the spring of 1963. I don’t have the book in front of me now. Dorothe wasn’t Brandstetter’s ACSI ‘big brother’ that he reported to for decades, the one that assigned him to the 488th after he returned from Cuba. That was some other Colonel. 

Paul,

His name was Rose (his first name escapes me at the moment).

Steve

[Leslie Sharp]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Leslie,

On August 9, 2021, Paul Brancato wrote an entry in Education Forum in the Thread entitled,
"Were Dallas Police officers involved in the murder of President Kennedy ?"
See page 3.

Paul wrote,
"Steve et al - I received Jack Crichton’s oral history transcript. The key sentence, in describing how Colonel Lumpkin, Deputy police chief, called him on the evening of Nov 22  to ask if he knew a Russian interpreter for Marina. Quote - “ He (Lumpkin) was Deputy Chief of Police at that time. But he also had an Intelligence unit. And I, at that time, I was CO of the 488th Strategic Intelligence Unit. And I had previously been a CO of a counter-intelligence detachment here in Dallas and about 100 people in that unit and about 40 or 50 of them were from the Dallas Police Department."

It is my contention that a "Strategic Intelligence Unit" is not the same thing as a Military Intelligence Detachment ( MID) of the U.S. Army.
From what Paul has researched about Frank Brandstetter, I believe that he did work with Jack Crichton, but Whitmeyer, I'm  not so sure.
Crichton can claim that 40-50 DPD officers were in his "Strategic Intekkigence Unit", but I don't ever remember any actual Police Officer saying, "Yes, I was a member of  Crichton's group."
In his WC testimony, Winston Lawson said that George Whitmeyer "taught Army intelligence".
I have suggested that George Whitmeyer taught Army intelligence at the 4150th USAR Training School in Dallas, where he lived and where George Lumpkin was the Commandant.
See this thread on the 4150th:
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25557-4150th/#comment-395116

 

Steve Thomas

Thanks, Steve.
"Strategic . . . " aligns with  "covert petrochemical intelligence studies,", i.e. designed to support a specific industry, but why would Crichton be permitted to use "488th" if a  detachment that fell within the formal structure used the same ident? We recently traced who Crichton would have reported to if his detachment met the standards of official structure. The 112th.  

[Leslie Sharp]

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - thanks for locating the thread where I quoted the oral history on Crichton that was actually misfiled in the 6th floor museum because they misspelled Crichton. It seems to me that wondering about whether Crichton’s Intelligence Unit was the 488th MID misses the main point, which is looking closely at Crichton and his association with DPD detectives. Btw it was probably Dorothe Matlack, ACSI - Army chief of staff Intelligence at the Pentagon. She pops up later in what Joan Mellen dug up in Our Man in Haiti, which is that she was present with George DeMohrenschildt along with a few others in the spring of 1963. I don’t have the book in front of me now. Dorothe wasn’t Brandstetter’s ACSI ‘big brother’ that he reported to for decades, the one that assigned him to the 488th after he returned from Cuba. That was some other Colonel. 

I agree Paul.  The relevance is Crichton's access and the credibility he would have enjoyed among an element of the DPD, sufficient to get them on board with anything he required.  The ease with which he inserted Ilya Mamantov into the scenario within hours of the assassination is indicative.

Sam Kail, who worked along side Matlack during this period, appears frequently in the Lafitte record. Also, you may recall our search for the ASCI official who met with J. Edgar Hoover on December 11? 

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

His name was Rose (his first name escapes me at the moment).

Steve

 

8 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

I agree Paul.  The relevance is Crichton's access and the credibility he would have enjoyed among an element of the DPD, sufficient to get them on board with anything he required.  The ease with which he inserted Ilya Mamantov into the scenario within hours of the assassination is indicative.

Sam Kail, who worked along side Matlack during this period, appears frequently in the Lafitte record. Also, you may recall our search for the ASCI official who met with J. Edgar Hoover on December 11? 

Steve,

Was Rose Asst. Chief ASCI at the time?  I believe Rose may be the name we settled on as having met with Hoover on 12/11. The name is redacted in Hoover's calendar for some reason.

[Evan Marshall]

Perhaps it might be very valuable to see who else was expelled in the same time frame.

[Steve Thomas]

5 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Btw it was probably Dorothe Matlack, ACSI - Army chief of staff Intelligence at the Pentagon. She pops up later in what Joan Mellen dug up in Our Man in Haiti, which is that she was present with George DeMohrenschildt along with a few others in the spring of 1963.

Paul,

Dorothea's name pops up several times in connection with Sam Kail, another one of those pesky Colonels.

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

 

Steve,

Was Rose Asst. Chief ASCI at the time?  I believe Rose may be the name we settled on as having met with Hoover on 12/11. The name is redacted in Hoover's calendar for some reason.

Leslie,

Yes.

I don't have this book, but I think Paul does.

Brandy, Our Man in Acapulco: The Life and Times of Colonel ...

books.google.com › books

 

 

Rodney P. Carlisle, ‎Dominic J. Monetta · 1999

Found inside – Page 158

The Life and Times of Colonel Frank M. Brandstetter Rodney P. Carlisle, Dominic J. Monetta ... Meanwhile , he kept in touch with Colonel William Rose at the Pen- tagon office of the Assistant Chief of Staff - Intelligence .

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Evan Marshall said:

Perhaps it might be very valuable to see who else was expelled in the same time frame.

Evan,

Supposedly there are records of this at the INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service), but over the years, no one has been able to pry that information out of them.

Steve Thomas

[Leslie Sharp]

17 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Evan,

Supposedly there are records of this at the INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service), but over the years, no one has been able to pry that information out of them.

Steve Thomas

Gary Shaw interviewed the agents responsible for the region. He and Bud Fensterwald realized the potential significance and went in pursuit of Souetre and the attendant discrepancies. 

Where is the full 14-page report from 1964? And, at the risk of repetition, why would the DST misidentify Souetre as Mertz? The initial inquiry of American intel about the expulsion of Souetre included a photo of Souetre, so why, years later (presumably, although we don't have a date for the publication of the erroneously captioned photos of Jean Souetre), did the French choose to mislead?

[Paul Brancato]

Leslie - you think it might have been Colonel Rose who met with Hoover on 12/11? That’s the correct date? He worked out of the Assistant Chief of Staff Office for certain. The structure of ASCI isn’t clear to me. I suspect there were several assistants, Rose and Matlack among them. Rose was definitely Brandstetter’s connection. 

[Steve Thomas]

16 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

why would the DST misidentify Souetre as Mertz? The initial inquiry of American intel about the expulsion of Souetre included a photo of Souetre, so why, years later (presumably, although we don't have a date for the publication of the erroneously captioned photos of Jean Souetre), did the French choose to mislead?

Leslie,

I'm not so sure the Souetre aka Mertz aka Roux is coming from the French.

A CIA document dated November 1, 1962 gives a list of the OAS members furnished to the Italian authorities. The list was given to Italian border police and replaced a longer list of some 562 people. It says the list was current as of August 27, 1962. An asterisk placed beside some names indicated that a photograph accompanied the name of the person. Souetre has an asterisk beside his name. The photographs were provided in two booklets which accompanied the list.

NARA Record Number: 1993.08.05.10:50:12:500006

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=64991&relPageId=3

 

In September, 1962, Charles DeGaulle traveled to West Germany for a state visit.

In advance of his visit the West German Security Services asked the French Surete for photographs of several chief men of the O.A.S. Among these were ex-colonels Goddard and Antoine Argoud; ex-captains Souetre, Sergent, Curutchet; and ex-senator Dumont.

(see p. 5 of this document)

http://www.50elysee.com/fileadmin/user_upload/AFP/ARCHIVE/4-DE_GAULLE-Allemagne-4-5.9.1962.pdf

(Unfortunately, this link is apparently broken)

In none of the accounts I have seen of Souetre's suspected involvement in the attack on DeGaulle at Petit-Clamart in August, 1962 do I see reports of Souetre masquerading as Mertz.

It is also believed that the French used Mertz to infiltrate the OAS and disrupt or foil the attack on DeGaulle at Pont-Sur-Seine on September 8, 1961.

Steve Thomas

[Paul Brancato]

1 minute ago, Steve Thomas said:

Leslie,

I'm not so sure the Souetre aka Mertz aka Roux is coming from the French.

A CIA document dated November 1, 1962 gives a list of the OAS members furnished to the Italian authorities. The list was given to Italian border police and replaced a longer list of some 562 people. It says the list was current as of August 27, 1962. An asterisk placed beside some names indicated that a photograph accompanied the name of the person. Souetre has an asterisk beside his name. The photographs were provided in two booklets which accompanied the list.

NARA Record Number: 1993.08.05.10:50:12:500006

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=64991&relPageId=3

 

In September, 1962, Charles DeGaulle traveled to West Germany for a state visit.

In advance of his visit the West German Security Services asked the French Surete for photographs of several chief men of the O.A.S. Among these were ex-colonels Goddard and Antoine Argoud; ex-captains Souetre, Sergent, Curutchet; and ex-senator Dumont.

(see p. 5 of this document)

http://www.50elysee.com/fileadmin/user_upload/AFP/ARCHIVE/4-DE_GAULLE-Allemagne-4-5.9.1962.pdf

(Unfortunately, this link is apparently broken)

In none of the accounts I have seen of Souetre's suspected involvement in the attack on DeGaulle at Petit-Clamart in August, 1962 do I see reports of Souetre masquerading as Mertz.

It is also believed that the French used Mertz to infiltrate the OAS and disrupt or foil the attack on DeGaulle at Pont-Sur-Seine on September 8, 1961.

Steve Thomas

That would make sense out of later comments by Souetre naming Mertz as someone using his name as an alias. Also that it’s US Intel that provides most of the name confusion. 

[Ron Bulman]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:52 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Hmm.  I tried explaining, again, to my wife yesterday who Clark Hunt is while watching the Superbowl.  Daddy Lamar moved the AFL champion Dallas Texans to KC in 1960 when the NFL Deluxe Plowboys came to town.   Watching the game I didn't go into grandaddy Harlodson Lafayette's oil riches, the richest man in the world at one point, nor his funding of extreme conservative propaganda.  Or Jack Ruby visiting one of the sons at his building the day before the assassination.  The Tramell thing.

Meet the Hunt dynasty, owners of the Kansas City chiefs, and one of the richest families in America (msn.com)

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Leslie,

I'm not so sure the Souetre aka Mertz aka Roux is coming from the French.

A CIA document dated November 1, 1962 gives a list of the OAS members furnished to the Italian authorities. The list was given to Italian border police and replaced a longer list of some 562 people. It says the list was current as of August 27, 1962. An asterisk placed beside some names indicated that a photograph accompanied the name of the person. Souetre has an asterisk beside his name. The photographs were provided in two booklets which accompanied the list.

NARA Record Number: 1993.08.05.10:50:12:500006

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=64991&relPageId=3

 

In September, 1962, Charles DeGaulle traveled to West Germany for a state visit.

In advance of his visit the West German Security Services asked the French Surete for photographs of several chief men of the O.A.S. Among these were ex-colonels Goddard and Antoine Argoud; ex-captains Souetre, Sergent, Curutchet; and ex-senator Dumont.

(see p. 5 of this document)

http://www.50elysee.com/fileadmin/user_upload/AFP/ARCHIVE/4-DE_GAULLE-Allemagne-4-5.9.1962.pdf

(Unfortunately, this link is apparently broken)

In none of the accounts I have seen of Souetre's suspected involvement in the attack on DeGaulle at Petit-Clamart in August, 1962 do I see reports of Souetre masquerading as Mertz.

It is also believed that the French used Mertz to infiltrate the OAS and disrupt or foil the attack on DeGaulle at Pont-Sur-Seine on September 8, 1961.

Steve Thomas

Steve, I'm referring to US reports that it was unclear whether Mertz or Souetre was detained and then expelled from the US, and that at a later date, French DST produced photos of Souetre with a caption Michel Mertz.