Kennedy-Related Photos

[David Von Pein]

It's interesting to note that the late Vincent T. Bugliosi evidently had no idea at all that today's 21st Century Conspiracy Theorists have invented a brand-new theory regarding the "Second-Floor Lunchroom Encounter". With that ridiculous "new" fantasy theory being, of course: The Lunchroom Encounter Never Happened At All.

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Edited January 22 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

[David Von Pein]

Here's a look at the TV shows that would have aired throughout the day on 11/22/63 (in central Indiana) if the assassination had not occurred (click for a bigger view):

Edited February 4 by David Von Pein

[Robert Morrow]

On 2/4/2023 at 12:17 AM, David Von Pein said:

Thank you for posting this. This paper, the afternoon edition of the Maryville Daily Forum, went to print BEFORE the arrest of the pre-selected patsy Lee Harvey Oswald which occurred - I think - about 1:50PM CST (are we absolutely sure about that being the time of the Oswald apprehension?)

Scroll  down main article "Dies from Bullet Wound in Head 30 Minutes Later" - until you get to the paragraphs about the so-called "suspect" being 165 pounds, slender, and carrying a 30-30 Winchester rifle. That is the description of the so-called "suspect" that the Dallas police dispatcher was immediately spewing out in the wake of the JFK assassination.

The frame-up of Lee Harvey Oswald by the Dallas Police Dispatcher (or the people manipulating the Dallas police) has already occurred and is in full steam at this moment. I have a nice blog post which proves with 100% certainty that Oswald was a pre-selected patsy for the JFK assassination:

https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2023/01/5-feet-10-inches-165-pounds-is-absolute.html

The Dallas police (or rather the military intelligence people who were manipulating them like a marionette doll) were using Marguerite Oswald's OWN PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION OF HER SON LEE which she gave to Dallas FBI agent John Fain in May of 1960 to immediately frame the pre-selected patsy Oswald for the JFK assassination.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5 by Robert Morrow

[Greg Doudna]

David von Pein, could you give a LN response to Robert Morrow’s point above (and references in his blog post linked there) concerning the 5’10”, 165 lbs., mistaken physical description of Oswald stemming from Marguerite’s mistaken information to FBI Fain in 1960 … a mistaken Oswald physical description as early as 12:44 pm on Dallas Police Radio, before Oswald was a suspect?

It cannot stem from a real description of Oswald from a witness because if so there would not be the exact agreement to the pound and to the inch with the mistaken Oswald physical description. 

And it cannot stem from Oswald being suspected and then obtaining a written physical description of Oswald because this was before Oswald was a suspect.

It looks like catching a plagiarist or someone cheating on a test at school because they copied a telltale mistake that was in the source. 

Does that look like someone planned to incriminate Oswald prior to the shots being fired? 

Is there a mundane, innocent explanation for the exact height and weight match to the mistaken Oswald physical description for the suspect, before Oswald was a suspect? 

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

It cannot stem from a real description of Oswald from a witness because if so there would not be the exact agreement to the pound and to the inch with the mistaken Oswald physical description. 

Why on Earth can't it be a "real description" of the sixth-floor assassin??? Of course it was a "real description" of the assassin.

Here's a discussion I had with a couple of conspiracy believers in 2015 concerning this same (general) topic....

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

One of the many things that conspiracy theorists will always refuse to evaluate properly is the fact that Howard Brennan provided a description of the 6th-floor assassin on Day 1 (November 22) in his affidavit that generally fits Lee Oswald.

Even the age of the assassin Brennan saw fits perfectly with Marrion Baker's incorrect estimate of Lee Oswald's age -- about 30 -- which we know is wrong, but we also know that the man Baker described as being "approximately 30 years old" WAS Lee Harvey Oswald and not somebody who could have merely been confused with Oswald.

And then there are the "weight" estimates provided by Brennan and Baker in their individual affidavits, which also (just like the "age" estimate) blend together perfectly:

Baker said -- "165 pounds".

Brennan said -- "165 to 175 pounds".

And, just like Baker's estimate for Oswald's age, the weight estimate he provided in his affidavit is wrong, but we still know that Baker was estimating the weight of the real Lee Harvey Oswald when he wrote down "165 pounds" in his 11/22/63 affidavit.

Ergo, we know that it is, indeed, possible for a person to look right at Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22, 1963, and think he weighed as much as 165 pounds. Shouldn't this fact mean just a little something to CTers when they attempt to assess whether or not Howard Brennan could have possibly seen Oswald in the Sniper's Nest on that same day?

Do CTers think that Baker and Brennan got together and swapped information so that their affidavits would merge perfectly with respect to both the "age" and "weight" estimates?

A CONSPIRACY THEORIST KNOWN AS "NICKNAME" SAID:

Brennan's testimony does your case no good, unfortunately. He recalls seeing "a white man, early 30's, slender, weight about 165 to 175 pounds." As if that description doesn't fit 40 million people. Add that he was 120 feet away, staring at a figure six stories up. Could you positively ID someone from that distance? And even if it was Oswald he saw, that only proves that Oswald was ONE OF the shooters, not the only shooter.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

NickName,

Read my last post again, and place Brennan's 11/22 affidavit alongside Baker's 11/22 affidavit. Can't you see the similarities?

And, as I said, we know for an absolute irrefutable fact that Marrion Baker was describing Lee Harvey Oswald in that affidavit and nobody else on Earth. And yet he made the same TWO incorrect estimates that Howard Brennan also made -- age and weight.

And you surely aren't going to pull a DiEugenio on me and claim something silly like this (are you?)....

"Baker never saw Oswald. .... I believe the [Oswald/Baker/Truly] incident was created after the fact."    -- James DiEugenio; July 13-14, 2015

GARRY PUFFER SAID:

A guy who weighs 141 pounds would never be said to weigh 165.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Tell that to Marrion L. Baker of the Dallas Police Department, Garry....

"The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds." -- M.L. Baker; November 22, 1963

Let me guess, Garry --- Marrion Baker wasn't really describing the real Lee Harvey Oswald when he said the man he stopped at gunpoint in the Depository's second-floor lunchroom weighed "165 pounds", right? You think Baker was either lying or he was describing somebody besides Oswald (despite the fact Roy Truly, who was right there in the lunchroom with Baker during the encounter, confirmed it was Lee Oswald). Right?

Let's hear the CTers' lame, rip-roaring, half-baked excuse for totally dismissing these words written by Roy Truly on 11/23/63:

"The officer and I went through the shipping department to the freight elevator. We then started up the stairway. We hit the second floor landing, the officer stuck his head into the lunch room area where there are Coke and candy machines. Lee Oswald was in there. The officer had his gun on Oswald and asked me if he was an employee. I answered yes." -- Roy S. Truly; November 23, 1963

HANK SIENZANT SAID:

Great post, David.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Hank.

I like to keep this "Assassination Arguments Part 1000" page handy whenever somebody tells me that it would have been utterly impossible for any witness to think Lee Oswald weighed as much as 165 pounds.

More here....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/08/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1000.html

 

Edited February 5 by David Von Pein

[Robert Morrow]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Why on Earth can't it be a "real description" of the sixth-floor assassin??? Of course it was a "real description" of the assassin.

Here's a discussion I had with a couple of conspiracy believers in 2015 concerning this same topic....

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

One of the many things that conspiracy theorists will always refuse to evaluate properly is the fact that Howard Brennan provided a description of the 6th-floor assassin on Day 1 (November 22) in his affidavit that generally fits Lee Oswald.

Even the age of the assassin Brennan saw fits perfectly with Marrion Baker's incorrect estimate of Lee Oswald's age -- about 30 -- which we know is wrong, but we also know that the man Baker described as being "approximately 30 years old" WAS Lee Harvey Oswald and not somebody who could have merely been confused with Oswald.

And then there are the "weight" estimates provided by Brennan and Baker in their individual affidavits, which also (just like the "age" estimate) blend together perfectly:

Baker said -- "165 pounds".

Brennan said -- "165 to 175 pounds".

And, just like Baker's estimate for Oswald's age, the weight estimate he provided in his affidavit is wrong, but we still know that Baker was estimating the weight of the real Lee Harvey Oswald when he wrote down "165 pounds" in his 11/22/63 affidavit.

Ergo, we know that it is, indeed, possible for a person to look right at Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22, 1963, and think he weighed as much as 165 pounds. Shouldn't this fact mean just a little something to CTers when they attempt to assess whether or not Howard Brennan could have possibly seen Oswald in the Sniper's Nest on that same day?

Do CTers think that Baker and Brennan got together and swapped information so that their affidavits would merge perfectly with respect to both the "age" and "weight" estimates?

A CONSPIRACY THEORIST KNOWN AS "NICKNAME" SAID:

Brennan's testimony does your case no good, unfortunately. He recalls seeing "a white man, early 30's, slender, weight about 165 to 175 pounds." As if that description doesn't fit 40 million people. Add that he was 120 feet away, staring at a figure six stories up. Could you positively ID someone from that distance? And even if it was Oswald he saw, that only proves that Oswald was ONE OF the shooters, not the only shooter.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

NickName,

Read my last post again, and place Brennan's 11/22 affidavit alongside Baker's 11/22 affidavit. Can't you see the similarities?

And, as I said, we know for an absolute irrefutable fact that Marrion Baker was describing Lee Harvey Oswald in that affidavit and nobody else on Earth. And yet he made the same TWO incorrect estimates that Howard Brennan also made -- age and weight.

And you surely aren't going to pull a DiEugenio on me and claim something silly like this (are you?)....

"Baker never saw Oswald. .... I believe the [Oswald/Baker/Truly] incident was created after the fact."    -- James DiEugenio; July 13-14, 2015

GARRY PUFFER SAID:

A guy who weighs 141 pounds would never be said to weigh 165.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Tell that to Marrion L. Baker of the Dallas Police Department, Garry....

"The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds." -- M.L. Baker; November 22, 1963

Let me guess, Garry --- Marrion Baker wasn't really describing the real Lee Harvey Oswald when he said the man he stopped at gunpoint in the Depository's second-floor lunchroom weighed "165 pounds", right? You think Baker was either lying or he was describing somebody besides Oswald (despite the fact Roy Truly, who was right there in the lunchroom with Baker during the encounter, confirmed it was Lee Oswald). Right?

Let's hear the CTers' lame, rip-roaring, half-baked excuse for totally dismissing these words written by Roy Truly on 11/23/63:

"The officer and I went through the shipping department to the freight elevator. We then started up the stairway. We hit the second floor landing, the officer stuck his head into the lunch room area where there are Coke and candy machines. Lee Oswald was in there. The officer had his gun on Oswald and asked me if he was an employee. I answered yes." -- Roy S. Truly; November 23, 1963

HANK SIENZANT SAID:

Great post, David.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Hank.

I like to keep this "Assassination Arguments Part 1000" page handy whenever somebody tells me that it would have been utterly impossible for any witness to think Lee Oswald weighed as much as 165 pounds.

More here....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/08/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1000.html

 

The Officer Marrion Baker and Howard Brennan affidavits were both fabricated to conform with the "blame the patsy Oswald" conspiracy that went into full effect at 12:44 PM when the Dallas police dispatcher starting spewing Marguerite Oswald's May, 1960 physical description to FBI agent John Fain.

Lee Harvey Oswald was perhaps 5 feet 9 1/2 inches tall and 135 pounds on the day of the JFK assassination. I think he fell to as low as 131 pounds over the course of the weekend (asking)?

In my opinion, both the FBI and the Dallas police were fabricating witness statements to pin both the JFK assassination and the shooting of Officer Tippit on Oswald. Remember the FBI told both JFK Kenny O'Donnell and Dave Powers not to say that they heard shots come from the front right Grassy Knoll (see Tip O'Neil's memoir).

Both Baker, Brennan and Inspector Sawyer were lying and in engaging in prefabricated deception.

Just like Marina Oswald was flat out lying that Oswald said he had just tried to shoot Gen. Edwin Walker on the night of April 10, 1963.

Just as Lee Harvey Oswald was lying as he presented himself publicly as a pro-Castro Marxist and as a genuine defector to Russia who was protesting American policies.

Just like Lyndon Johnson was lying when he immediately tried to blame the JFK assassination on a communist in the notorious rightwing Dallas 1963.

 

 

Edited February 6 by Robert Morrow
correcting a typo

[Greg Doudna]

Thanks David for that discussion of the topic. I don’t see that it clears up the question I asked though. I agree Baker saw Oswald, and Baker reported Oswald (the real Oswald) as 165 lbs. But the issue is not whether someone could mistake 140 lb Oswald for 165 lbs—that is not the question—but the specificity of the DPD radio broadcast error being 165 and not 160 or 170, combined also with the specificity of the error in Oswald’s height being 5’10” and not some other inch. Referring to that 12:44 police radio broadcast.

Without questioning that Baker saw Oswald, I have wondered if Baker somehow heard or got the 165 pounds number from somewhere and wrote it, or maybe not. If he truly had no knowledge of a 165 number from any other source by the time he wrote his report of his encounter with Oswald, if his 165 pounds for Oswald truly was uninfluenced and his own, then that is coincidence and irrelevant here.

So forget Baker, and forget your point correctly shown that a weight estimate of someone of Oswald’s weight by a witness can be mistaken by 20 or 30 pounds, that’s not the issue here.

The question is how is it the DPD 12:44 broadcast EXACTLY matches to the inch and the pound the preexisting inaccurate written record on BOTH Oswald’s height and weight before his name was known as a suspect.

What is your answer to that question

Coincidence?

I assume that is your answer—but would you confirm that? 

[Robert Morrow]

2 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Thanks David for that discussion of the topic. I don’t see that it clears up the question I asked though. I agree Baker saw Oswald, and Baker reported Oswald (the real Oswald) as 165 lbs. But the issue is not whether someone could mistake 140 lb Oswald for 165 lbs—that is not the question—but the specificity of the DPD radio broadcast error being 165 and not 160 or 170, combined also with the specificity of the error in Oswald’s height being 5’10” and not some other inch. Referring to that 12:44 police radio broadcast.

Without questioning that Baker saw Oswald, I have wondered if Baker somehow heard or got the 165 pounds number from somewhere and wrote it, or maybe not. If he truly had no knowledge of a 165 number from any other source by the time he wrote his report of his encounter with Oswald, if his 165 pounds for Oswald truly was uninfluenced and his own, then that is coincidence and irrelevant here.

So forget Baker, and forget your point correctly shown that a weight estimate of someone of Oswald’s weight by a witness can be mistaken by 20 or 30 pounds, that’s not the issue here.

The question is how is it the DPD 12:44 broadcast EXACTLY matches to the inch and the pound the preexisting inaccurate written record on BOTH Oswald’s height and weight before his name was known as a suspect.

What is your answer to that question

Coincidence?

I assume that is your answer—but would you confirm that? 

Officer Marrion Baker and Howard Brennan were both lying their asses off and going along with the already enacted "frame Oswald" gameplan.

[David Von Pein]

24 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

The question is how is it the DPD 12:44 broadcast EXACTLY matches to the inch and the pound the preexisting inaccurate written record on BOTH Oswald’s height and weight before his name was known as a suspect.

What is your answer to that question

Coincidence?

I assume that is your answer—but would you confirm that? 

Yes....it was coincidence. Without doubt (IMO).

It's a coincidence brought about by Howard Brennan's description of the assassin that he gave to the police (probably to J. Herbert Sawyer).

But maybe Bob Morrow thinks that Brennan was in cahoots with Marguerite on the "5-feet-10, 165 pounds" thing. After all, anything's possible in the bizarre conspiracy-flavored world inhabited by many CTers. 😛

 

Edited February 5 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

32 minutes ago, Robert Morrow said:

Officer Marrion Baker and Howard Brennan were both lying their asses off and going along with the already enacted "frame Oswald" gameplan.

Typical CTer mindset.

IOW -- The More L-i-a-r-s, The Better.

 

Edited February 5 by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

10 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes....coincidence. Without doubt.*

* IMO

It's a coincidence brought about by Howard Brennan's description of the assassin that he gave to the police (probably to J. Herbert Sawyer).

Thanks for the answer David. I don’t agree with Robert M that Baker and Brennan were involved in trying to frame Oswald or that anyone put either of them up to lying that weekend.

I suppose unanswered questions are is it certain Brennan was Sawyer’s source, and did Brennan confirm he gave a 5’10” height estimate specifically. Did Sawyer’s source claim to have seen the shooter leave the building with a rifle (which was other than a Mannlicher-Carcano)? That sounds like what the source told Sawyer, but is that what Brennan told Sawyer? 

I’m a little puzzled why Sawyer could not identify who told him that original height and weight estimate, never directly confirmed it was Brennan. But Brennan—wasn’t he wearing a hardhat or something, difficult not to remember? An important piece of information for Sawyer and to have no name record or memory of physical description of the source? A little odd. 

It’s not an impossible coincidence (the coincidence explanation), just a little odd is all. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

...is it certain Brennan was Sawyer’s source[?]...

Some of my thoughts on the "Brennan/Sawyer" matter can be found HERE.

And here are some excerpts from Vincent Bugliosi's book pertaining to Brennan and Sawyer (click to enlarge)....

Edited February 5 by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

OK David I think you’re right on the coincidence. Brennan already had his 6th floor shooter at 165-175 lbs, first-day written statement, or 160-170, WC testimony, thinks the height was about 5’10”, WC testimony, and the description given by Sawyer juxtaposed with Brennan’s makes Brennan pretty clearly Sawyer’s source. Therefore the agreement with the preexisting Oswald height and weight does look like coincidence, a “false positive” so to speak. 

That is coincidence, but it still seems a bit much to me that Baker also has the exact same 165 lbs applied to his non-165 lbs Oswald, not because Baker did not run into Oswald (as Oswald was about to exit the second floor to go down the NW stairwell to exit out the back as I understand it), but because Baker must have picked up the 165 lb estimate overheard from somewhere, and having no clearer idea of Oswald’s weight just used the 165, though Baker’s height estimate (5’9”) and clothing description would be original to him. 

[Robert Morrow]

35 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

OK David I think you’re right on the coincidence. Brennan already had his 6th floor shooter at 165-175 lbs, first-day written statement, or 160-170, WC testimony, thinks the height was about 5’10”, WC testimony, and the description given by Sawyer juxtaposed with Brennan’s makes Brennan pretty clearly Sawyer’s source. Therefore the agreement with the preexisting Oswald height and weight does look like coincidence, a “false positive” so to speak. 

That is coincidence, but it still seems a bit much to me that Baker also has the exact same 165 lbs applied to his non-165 lbs Oswald, not because Baker did not run into Oswald (as Oswald was about to exit the second floor to go down the NW stairwell to exit out the back as I understand it), but because Baker must have picked up the 165 lb estimate overheard from somewhere, and having no clearer idea of Oswald’s weight just used the 165, though Baker’s height estimate (5’9”) and clothing description would be original to him. 

Howard Brennan was totally lying. In reality the Dallas police put words into his mouth for the "first day written statement"  - and we don't know exactly when this was written, typed up, massaged and crafted by the Dallas police for Brennan. One thing we do know is this fraudulent statement was created AFTER the immediately framing of Lee Harvey Oswald begin via the Dallas Police Dispatcher at 12:44PM. 

 Dallas FBI agent John W. Fain wrote up this physical description of Oswald in an FBI report dated 5/12/60 – This description was given by Marguerite Oswald and is located on page 145 out of 206 pages of Oswald’s 201 file: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95569#relPageId=145 In this FBI report Marguerite Oswald describes her son Lee as “five feet 10 inches, 165 pounds.”

 The 5/12/1960 FBI report was written up by Dallas FBI agent John W. Fain:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95569#relPageId=139

One it has been confirmed that Oswald was a pre-selected patsy for the JFK assassination, then EVERYTHING that the Dallas Police and soon the FBI claim about the JFK assassination immediately becomes suspect.

One can't believe ANYTHING those two parties say about the JFK assassination because Oswald has been proven to be framed.

How does this "queering" of the evidence and fabrication of witness statements occur. Very easily, the cops or the FBI steer/suggest the witnesses into saying what the Dallas police and the FBI want them to say. And if "suggesting" does not work, then just fabricate the statement after the fact.

A good example is one of JFK's closest aides Kenny O'Donnell who was told by the FBI to lie to the Warren Commission about not hearing shots from the Grassy Knoll.

Who knows how many witness statements the Dallas police, the FBI and the Warren Commission fabricated or warped to conform to their requirements to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for both the JFK assassination and the murder of Officer J.D. Tippit?

Dozens of times? Hundreds of times?

 

 

Edited February 6 by Robert Morrow