Oswald's Light-Colored Jacket

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

I wasn't calling YOU stupid, Ron. I was calling the theory stupid. And I was calling any plotters stupid who would have been engaged in such a "Let's Allow TWO Oswalds To Walk Around The Texas Theater At The Exact Same Time And Potentially Blow To Bits Our Plot To Frame LHO" scheme.

 

You actually think the DPD records prove as a "documented fact" that there were 2 "Oswalds" in the Texas Theater on 11/22/63?

You're dreaming.

So, you think there was a Plot To Frame LHO.

[David Von Pein]

10 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

So, you think there was a Plot To Frame LHO.

No, of course not. I was merely putting myself in the place of the CTers who DO think such a plot was afoot.

Let me ask you this, Ron....

If a plot had been in place by some unknown plotters to "frame LHO" on Nov. 22, do you personally think it would have been a good idea to have TWO different "Oswalds" walking around in the Texas Theater at the very same time?

Edited July 9, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Regarding Butch Burroughs.....

[David Von Pein]

43 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

DPD documents prove one "Oswald" was arrested in the balcony. 

From this 2014 discussion....

MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID -- "What made several police officers say in their reports that Oswald was arrested on the balcony of the TT?"

DVP SAID -- "A very minor mistake really. Not important. He was arrested IN the theater. Just not "in the balcony". But we know the initial DPD radio call said they thought the suspect was "hiding in the balcony". This early erroneous speculation could have been repeated by some of the officers. Some errors get repeated from one person to the next."
 

[Ron Bulman]

2 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

From this 2014 discussion....

MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID -- "What made several police officers say in their reports that Oswald was arrested on the balcony of the TT?"

DVP SAID -- "A very minor mistake really. Not important. He was arrested IN the theater. Just not "in the balcony". But we know the initial DPD radio call said they thought the suspect was "hiding in the balcony". This early erroneous speculation could have been repeated by some of the officers. Some errors get repeated from one person to the next."
 

A very minor mistake.  Not important.  Sure, if you say so.  Fact is the report says in the balcony.

[Bill Brown]

7 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

The problem is you started with Helen Markham and I lost all interest.

Okay then.  Set Markham aside.  In fact, set all of the Tenth and Patton (area) witnesses aside.

 

Oswald left the rooming house in a jacket, zipping it up as he went out the door.  Forget Tenth and Patton.  Forget CE-162 and the back lot of the Texaco station.  Just throw them out.  Let's pretend for a moment that Oswald never arrived at Tenth and Patton.

 

Oswald left the rooming house zipping up a jacket as he went out the door.  Oswald is seen by Johnny Brewer on Jefferson Blvd. with no jacket.  Why did Oswald ditch his jacket between the rooming house on Beckley and the shoe store on Jefferson?

[Paul Cummings]

16 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

"Housekeeper Earlene Roberts, to a radio reporter on the afternoon of the assassination, stated that Oswald was wearing a "short gray coat" as he left the rooming house.  She told the FBI that she remembered Oswald putting on a jacket and zipping it up as he went out the front door, adding that it was the type of jacket that zips up in the front."

Roberts Warren Commission: Oswald went to his room and was only there a very few minutes before coming out. I noticed he had a jacket he was putting on. I recall the jacket was a dark color and it was the type that zips up the front. He was zipping the jacket up as he left. 

Mr. BALL. I’ll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit 162-have you ever seen this jacket before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don’t remember it. It seems like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won’t be sure, because I really don’t know, but is that a zipper jacket?

Mrs. ROBERTS. It was a dark shirt he had on-1 think it was a dark one, but whether it was long sleeve or short sleeve or what-1 don’t know. 439 731-222 0-6~~01. VI-29

Mr. BALL. Does the color of this shirt which I show you here, Commission Exhibit No. 150, look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I’m sorry, I just don’t know.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to testify as to that--to tell us that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Go read Roberts full testimony. How many times does she use the words "I don't remember or I don't recall." I guess the next logical step is for you to tell me gray and dark colors are no different. Roberts overall testimony has a lot to be desired if you're looking for an accurate witness. Which leads to my previous response to DVP of the credibility and accuracy of the witnesses.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Steve Roe]

2 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

Go read Roberts full testimony. How many times does she use the words "I don't remember or I don't recall." I guess the next logical step is for you to tell me gray and dark colors are no different. Roberts overall testimony has a lot to be desired if you're looking for an accurate witness. Which leads to my previous response to DVP of the credibility and accuracy of the witnesses.

You're missing the big point here. It doesn't matter what color Roberts describes the jacket. Oswald is captured in the Texas Theater without a jacket.  Where's his jacket?

[Paul Cummings]

35 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

You're missing the big point here. It doesn't matter what color Roberts describes the jacket. Oswald is captured in the Texas Theater without a jacket.  Where's his jacket?

Actually I don't believe I am. If she can't be consistent about what the coat looked liked we should just assume based upon her (and her only testimony) that Oswald left wearing it? The I don't know or don't remember is consistently demonstrated in her testimony including questions surrounding the jacket.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Steve Roe]

45 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Actually I don't believe I am. If she can't be consistent about what the coat looked liked we should just assume based upon her (and her only testimony) that Oswald left wearing it? The I don't know or don't remember is consistently demonstrated in her testimony including questions surrounding the jacket.

Sorry, Roberts is very clear on this point in her WC testimony. 

Mr. BALL. It was a zippered jacket, was it?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, he was zipping it up as he went out the door.
Mr. BALL. He was zipping it up as he went out the door?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

The jacket found under the car behind the Ballew Texaco station was a zippered jacket as well. Fibers inside the sleeve were consistent with Oswald's arrest shirt. 

There is no doubt whatsoever that Oswald murdered JD Tippit. The evidence is overwhelming.

[Paul Cummings]

19 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Sorry, Roberts is very clear on this point in her WC testimony. 

Mr. BALL. It was a zippered jacket, was it?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, he was zipping it up as he went out the door.
Mr. BALL. He was zipping it up as he went out the door?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

The jacket found under the car behind the Ballew Texaco station was a zippered jacket as well. Fibers inside the sleeve were consistent with Oswald's arrest shirt. 

There is no doubt whatsoever that Oswald murdered JD Tippit. The evidence is overwhelming.

I also posted her testimony to the Warren Commission above. IMO she's far from being clear.

[Sean Coleman]

15 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

And you do know that that is a totally unconfirmed theory, right?

Moreover, it's a really silly theory too. And for a very obvious reason. Because why would anybody who was setting up LHO want to risk having TWO different "Oswalds" being seen at the very same location at the very same time? Were the plotters TRYING to expose their patsy plot right away? It's just stupid.

Bernard Haire seems a pretty convincing witness on that score

[Bill Brown]

So far, not one logical explanation for why Oswald was seen on Jefferson with no jacket yet he left the rooming house with a jacket (other than Oswald ditched the jacket to alter his appearance somewhat shortly after gunning down a police officer).

 

Conspiracy advocates realize what it means if Oswald left the rooming house in a jacket yet was on Jefferson without a jacket.  So they do the only thing they can, they challenge the claim that Oswald left the rooming house in a jacket, zipping it up as he went out the door.

 

Lame.

 

[Greg Doudna]

5 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

So far, not one logical explanation for why Oswald was seen on Jefferson with no jacket yet he left the rooming house with a jacket (other than Oswald ditched the jacket to alter his appearance somewhat shortly after gunning down a police officer).

Conspiracy advocates realize what it means if Oswald left the rooming house in a jacket yet was on Jefferson without a jacket.  So they do the only thing they can, they challenge the claim that Oswald left the rooming house in a jacket, zipping it up as he went out the door.

As one who has argued for Oswald's innocence in the Tippit killing, I gave an answer to that question Bill, here, https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27754-the-jackets-as-exculpation-of-oswald-as-the-tippit-killer-an-analysis/. Oswald left the rooming house after putting on his blue jacket (not his gray jacket), took a bus south on Beckley to the Texas Theatre on Jefferson, bought a ticket, entered the theatre wearing the blue jacket, took off the jacket inside the warm theatre. That explains why he was not wearing a jacket when arrested, because few people wear a warm jacket (as was Oswald's blue jacket) inside a heated theatre.

Meanwhile, the Tippit killer, who resembled Oswald and was mistaken for Oswald by some witnesses just as numerous witnesses mistakenly identified various persons as Oswald post-assassination, abandoned his light-gray, almost-white, jacket in flight, presumably in order to make identification more difficult in a hot pursuit situation from police. The killer went by Brewer's store, entered the Texas Theatre without purchasing a ticket and went up into the balcony, with intent to kill Oswald next. That intent was thwarted by the timely and rapid arrival of police who saved Oswald's life by arresting him. 

That there were two, not one, persons among the ca. 15 or so patrons inside the theatre that day, who witnesses thought resembled or looked like Oswald--Oswald and someone else--is established from two independent testimonies from inside the theatre: usher Burroughs (in interview with James Douglass told in Douglass's book), and deputy sheriff Bill Courson told in Sneed, No More Silence. In the second case, deputy sheriff Courson said he met the man he mistakenly believed was Oswald coming down from the balcony. Of course this was not a "second Oswald", there was only one Oswald, but there was a second person who some witnesses thought looked like Oswald, in that theatre at that time, never identified. That person, who was in the balcony of that theatre, who was not Oswald, who never voluntarily came forth to identify himself in the years since, would be the Tippit killer and would-be Oswald killer of that day. 

The killer's abandoned light-gray jacket was size "M", consistent with a Tippit killer slightly shorter and heavier than Oswald who otherwise consistently wore size "S". Witness Benavides who said he got a very good look at the back of the Tippit killer's head from only ca. 15 feet away as the killer started to flee in the moments after the killing, said the Tippit killer had a block cut hairline at the back of his neck--clear view, close, certain in his testimony. Oswald had a tapered haircut in the back of his neck, as seen in the many photos of Oswald after his arrest. The Tippit killer's fingerprints, a single individual's fingerprints on the right front passenger door and right front fender of the Tippit cruiser, both places where the killer was seen with respect to the Tippit cruiser, were found in the 1990s not to have come from Oswald (Myers, With Malice, pp. 336-340). Neither of these two items--the block haircut in the back of the killer's head; the killer's fingerprints, both in disagreement with Oswald--have been given the weight or attention they merit. They weigh in favor of Oswald not being that killer. 

I believe a snub-nosed Smith & Wesson .38 Special found by a citizen in a paper bag several blocks away from the Carousel Club in downtown Dallas in the early morning hours of Sat Nov 23, at the exact time Curtis Craford aka Larry Crafard was being driven by Ruby away from the Carousel Club in what has the appearance of a fugitive taking flight from Dallas, was the murder weapon of the Tippit killing, not Oswald's revolver, and that that is why that "paper bag revolver", whose existence and find is certain, vanished and disappeared after being in police custody without known investigation or paper trail.

The FBI document relative to the paper bag revolver found near the Carousel Club in downtown Dallas the morning of Nov 23, 1963 was apparently first noticed or discovered in 1995 by Paul Hoch even though the document had been released in 1978. Since Paul Hoch's notice the document has received a little discussion, e.g. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48693#relPageId=10, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217846#relPageId=81, https://jfkconspiracyforum.freeforums.net/thread/983/gun-bag. I have been the first to suggest that that Nov 23 paper bag revolver was the Tippit murder weapon and related to the departure of Curtis Craford from Dallas. The document reads: 

MEMORANDUM TO SAC, DALLAS (89-43) DATE: 11/25/63
FROM SA RICHARD E. HARRISON
SUBJECT: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
On 11/23/63, Patrolman J. RAZ brought into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas PD, a brown paper sack which contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith & Wesson, SN 893265.
This gun had the word "England" on the cylinder and had been found at approximately 7:30 AM in a brown paper sack, together with an apple and an orange, near the curb at the corner of Ross and Lamar Streets and was turned in by one Willie Flat, white male, 9221 Metz Drive, employed at 4770 Memphis, to the Dallas PD.

Oswald had a reason for carrying his revolver (self-defense) but there is no good reason for a person throwing a revolver in a paper bag out of a car window on the morning of Nov 23, 1963, other than that it was involved in a recent crime, namely the Tippit homicide done with exactly the kind of weapon in that paper bag. Craford was confused in physical identification, identified as being Oswald, by other Dallas citizens, such that the Tippit crime scene witnesses would simply become a few more instances if he were the killer. Craford's alibi is weak for Friday afternoon Nov 22, and his story of sudden no-notice hitchhiking from Dallas to Michigan hours after the Tippit killing, in the same proximity and timing as the abandonment of the paper bag revolver, suggests a candidate for identity of the killer of Tippit and would-be killer of Oswald of Nov 22, namely Ruby recent hire and later self-confessed hitman, Craford. Oswald was killed by Ruby himself on Sunday morning after the Tippit killer's intent to kill Oswald on Friday in the theatre failed.

On the FBI lab finding that the shell casings identified by DPD as found at the Tippit crime scene were fired exclusively from Oswald's revolver, my treatment of that issue is at https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27367-an-argument-for-actual-innocence-of-oswald-in-the-tippit-case/page/2/. 

Obviously the Tippit case involves more than this. But this gives a glimpse of a possible different theory of the case, in which Oswald is innocent in that killing. Some additional previous discussions of mine on various aspects of the Tippit case are:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27358-tippit-acquila-clemons/

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27362-tippit-a-second-officer-present-at-the-tippit-killing/

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26874-the-wallet-at-the-tippit-scene-a-simpler-solution/

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27770-a-five-point-road-map-to-accomplishing-a-change-of-consciousness-in-america-concerning-the-jfk-assassination/

[Bill Brown]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

As one who has argued for Oswald's innocence in the Tippit killing, I gave an answer to that question Bill, here, https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27754-the-jackets-as-exculpation-of-oswald-as-the-tippit-killer-an-analysis/. Oswald left the rooming house after putting on his blue jacket (not his gray jacket), took a bus south on Beckley to the Texas Theatre on Jefferson, bought a ticket, entered the theatre wearing the blue jacket, took off the jacket inside the warm theatre. That explains why he was not wearing a jacket when arrested, because few people wear a warm jacket (as was Oswald's blue jacket) inside a heated theatre.

Meanwhile, the Tippit killer, who resembled Oswald and was mistaken for Oswald by some witnesses just as numerous witnesses mistakenly identified various persons as Oswald post-assassination, abandoned his light-gray, almost-white, jacket in flight, presumably in order to make identification more difficult in a hot pursuit situation from police. The killer went by Brewer's store, entered the Texas Theatre without purchasing a ticket and went up into the balcony, with intent to kill Oswald next. That intent was thwarted by the timely and rapid arrival of police who saved Oswald's life by arresting him. 

That there were two, not one, persons among the ca. 15 or so patrons inside the theatre that day, who witnesses thought resembled or looked like Oswald--Oswald and someone else--is established from two independent testimonies from inside the theatre: usher Burroughs (in interview with James Douglass told in Douglass's book), and deputy sheriff Bill Courson told in Sneed, No More Silence. In the second case, deputy sheriff Courson said he met the man he mistakenly believed was Oswald coming down from the balcony. Of course this was not a "second Oswald", there was only one Oswald, but there was a second person who some witnesses thought looked like Oswald, in that theatre at that time, never identified. That person, who was in the balcony of that theatre, who was not Oswald, who never voluntarily came forth to identify himself in the years since, would be the Tippit killer and would-be Oswald killer of that day. 

The killer's abandoned light-gray jacket was size "M", consistent with a Tippit killer slightly shorter and heavier than Oswald who otherwise consistently wore size "S". Witness Benavides who said he got a very good look at the back of the Tippit killer's head from only ca. 15 feet away as the killer started to flee in the moments after the killing, said the Tippit killer had a block cut hairline at the back of his neck--clear view, close, certain in his testimony. Oswald had a tapered haircut in the back of his neck, as seen in the many photos of Oswald after his arrest. The Tippit killer's fingerprints, a single individual's fingerprints on the right front passenger door and right front fender of the Tippit cruiser, both places where the killer was seen with respect to the Tippit cruiser, were found in the 1990s not to have come from Oswald (Myers, With Malice, pp. 336-340). Neither of these two items--the block haircut in the back of the killer's head; the killer's fingerprints, both in disagreement with Oswald--have been given the weight or attention they merit. They weigh in favor of Oswald not being that killer. 

I believe a snub-nosed Smith & Wesson .38 Special found by a citizen in a paper bag several blocks away from the Carousel Club in downtown Dallas in the early morning hours of Sat Nov 23, at the exact time Curtis Craford aka Larry Crafard was being driven by Ruby away from the Carousel Club in what has the appearance of a fugitive taking flight from Dallas, was the murder weapon of the Tippit killing, not Oswald's revolver, and that that is why that "paper bag revolver", whose existence and find is certain, vanished and disappeared after being in police custody without known investigation or paper trail.

The FBI document relative to the paper bag revolver found near the Carousel Club in downtown Dallas the morning of Nov 23, 1963 was apparently first noticed or discovered in 1995 by Paul Hoch even though the document had been released in 1978. Since Paul Hoch's notice the document has received a little discussion, e.g. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48693#relPageId=10, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217846#relPageId=81, https://jfkconspiracyforum.freeforums.net/thread/983/gun-bag. I have been the first to suggest that that Nov 23 paper bag revolver was the Tippit murder weapon and related to the departure of Curtis Craford from Dallas. The document reads: 

MEMORANDUM TO SAC, DALLAS (89-43) DATE: 11/25/63
FROM SA RICHARD E. HARRISON
SUBJECT: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
On 11/23/63, Patrolman J. RAZ brought into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas PD, a brown paper sack which contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith & Wesson, SN 893265.
This gun had the word "England" on the cylinder and had been found at approximately 7:30 AM in a brown paper sack, together with an apple and an orange, near the curb at the corner of Ross and Lamar Streets and was turned in by one Willie Flat, white male, 9221 Metz Drive, employed at 4770 Memphis, to the Dallas PD.

Oswald had a reason for carrying his revolver (self-defense) but there is no good reason for a person throwing a revolver in a paper bag out of a car window on the morning of Nov 23, 1963, other than that it was involved in a recent crime, namely the Tippit homicide done with exactly the kind of weapon in that paper bag. Craford was confused in physical identification, identified as being Oswald, by other Dallas citizens, such that the Tippit crime scene witnesses would simply become a few more instances if he were the killer. Craford's alibi is weak for Friday afternoon Nov 22, and his story of sudden no-notice hitchhiking from Dallas to Michigan hours after the Tippit killing, in the same proximity and timing as the abandonment of the paper bag revolver, suggests a candidate for identity of the killer of Tippit and would-be killer of Oswald of Nov 22, namely Ruby recent hire and later self-confessed hitman, Craford. Oswald was killed by Ruby himself on Sunday morning after the Tippit killer's intent to kill Oswald on Friday in the theatre failed.

On the FBI lab finding that the shell casings identified by DPD as found at the Tippit crime scene were fired exclusively from Oswald's revolver, my treatment of that issue is at https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27367-an-argument-for-actual-innocence-of-oswald-in-the-tippit-case/page/2/. 

Obviously the Tippit case involves more than this. But this gives a glimpse of a possible different theory of the case, in which Oswald is innocent in that killing. Some additional previous discussions of mine on various aspects of the Tippit case are:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27358-tippit-acquila-clemons/

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27362-tippit-a-second-officer-present-at-the-tippit-killing/

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26874-the-wallet-at-the-tippit-scene-a-simpler-solution/

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27770-a-five-point-road-map-to-accomplishing-a-change-of-consciousness-in-america-concerning-the-jfk-assassination/

But... I was asking for a LOGICAL explanation.  Not just ANY explanation.