James DiEugenio Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Karl Hilliard said: There is nothing new in Myers newest article. Myers was not a witness to anything. He did not see anything or experience anything firsthand concerning the assassination. Dale Myers truest words are at the end of the article... How true Dale...Do that. Nice one Karl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Karl Hilliard said: Karl, he cannot do any more damage to the case than he has done. Edited July 21, 2022 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Epstein's Legend, is supposed to be a look at Oswald's Soviet ties. But it really isn't. Its really those ties as seen through Angleton's view. Reader's Digest more or less subsidized the book, and gave him a large budget with many researchers. When Jim Marrs interviewed them, they said they were told not to look at the CIA side. Later books about Oswald were better about his stay in Russia, like the Titovets book for example. Epstein does something kind of weird at the end of Legend, he kind of shifts to a Castro did it angle. Probably because his main focus, the Baron, had been off stage for awhile. Inquest has value because it shows the lower level lawyers on the Commission registering their complaints about how the Commission was run. For example, they did not want to use Markham, Brennan or Marina. They thought they had too many liabilities as witnesses which would later be found out. A big source for Epstein was Liebeler. Liebeler was called on the carpet by Rankin and Redlich for his famous long memorandum objecting to Redlich's rewrite. Although he made many sensible objections, they were all overruled in a naked power play. Redlich was more or less the errand boy for the top level of the Commission, working through manager Rankin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 41 minutes ago, Karl Kinaski said: @Pat Speer Compared to Myers, Mack in his later years was a much more destructive force to the CTer-case. His friend(of the early days) the late Jack White said of the late Mack, he was switching from CTer to LNter the moment he met Gus Russo. If Myers makes Bela Lugosi, what was Gary Mack when he became boss of the deep state front called 6th floor museum? -- The Voldemord of that Hogwarts Departement of the lone nut, eager to turn each und every piece of CTer evidence into the lone nut tale or dissimissing it as irrelevant or creating such bullshit artist pieces as INSIDE THE TARGET CAR. Compared to Mack, Myers is a small fish. You say, Mack remained open to CT ideas. I say he pretended ... BTW I had to add Gus Russo to my list of suspicious "CT to LN" convertites. No, you misunderstand me. I never met Mack in person but I probably exchanged 3 dozen messages and emails with him over the years. He was very closed-minded in his later years. But he never abandoned some of his early inklings. He never disavowed Badgeman or the dictabelt. And he said, on camera, more than once, that while most of the CT stuff was nonsense, that he still felt that a conspiracy could not be ruled out, and that he personally suspected a conspiracy. He was the curator of the Sixth Floor Museum. He was the media's go-to guy on the assassination. While his TV appearances on the Disco Channel were awful, and deceptive, he pushed both in his appearances and in his role at the Sixth Floor that CTs weren't nuts, and that much of the case was a mystery. He was not the boogey-man some make him out to be. He just wasn't the ally most hoped he would be when he first got the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Pat Speer said: I mean, c'mon, Oswald is a suspected cop killer and assassin. They are not just gonna sit around and do nothing while following "procedure". They went to the front door and Ruth invited them in. Mission accomplished. Pat, I'm sorry, but when the Sheriff's Deputies arrived at the Irving St. residence, the City Police were already there and waiting for them, and according to Weatherford, parked a half a block away. COUNTY OF DALLAS SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT REF: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY FROM: HARRY WEATHERFORD, Deputy Sheriff https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/weatherf.htm I then left the building and went to the Sheriff's office to contact Sheriff Decker and report our findings. While we were standing in the hall talking, Sheriff Decker gave me a piece of paper with an address of 2515 W. 5th Street, Irving. He said to get Deputies E. R. Buddy Walthers and J.L. Oxford and go see what we could find at this location as this man that shot the officer in Oak Cliff by the name of Oswald supposedly live at this location and further that we were to meet some of Capt. Fritz's officers at this address. Upon arrival at the address, we saw a DPD plain clothes car about 1/2 block from the address. In this car were Detectives Rose and Adamcik and another officer whom I did not know. COUNTY OF DALLAS SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT Name of Complainant: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY Offense DEPUTY J. L. OXFORD, Dallas County Sheriff's Department. https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/oxford1.htm Sheriff Decker then sent me along with deputies Buddy Walthers, Harry Weathorford to a location at 2515 W. Fifth Street in Irving, Texas, to meet Dallas Police Officers to search a house there and talk to the people within. When we got at the address, officer Adamcik of the DPD and myself went to the back of the house and Officers Weatherford, Walthers and Detective Rose of the DPD and another DPD officer went to the front door. COUNTY OF DALLAS SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY Officer Buddy Walthers, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Office https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/walther1.htm Sheriff Decker then ordered me, together with Deputy Harry Weatherford and Deputy J. L. Oxford to go to a house at 25115 West 5th Street in Irving, Texas and met some officers from Capt. Will Fritz' office. We arrived at location and met detective Rose and Adamcik from the Homicide division of the Dallas Police Department. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: Pat, I'm sorry, but when the Sheriff's Deputies arrived at the Irving St. residence, the City Police were already there and waiting for them, and according to Weatherford, parked a half a block away. COUNTY OF DALLAS SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT REF: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY FROM: HARRY WEATHERFORD, Deputy Sheriff https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/weatherf.htm I then left the building and went to the Sheriff's office to contact Sheriff Decker and report our findings. While we were standing in the hall talking, Sheriff Decker gave me a piece of paper with an address of 2515 W. 5th Street, Irving. He said to get Deputies E. R. Buddy Walthers and J.L. Oxford and go see what we could find at this location as this man that shot the officer in Oak Cliff by the name of Oswald supposedly live at this location and further that we were to meet some of Capt. Fritz's officers at this address. Upon arrival at the address, we saw a DPD plain clothes car about 1/2 block from the address. In this car were Detectives Rose and Adamcik and another officer whom I did not know. COUNTY OF DALLAS SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT Name of Complainant: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY Offense DEPUTY J. L. OXFORD, Dallas County Sheriff's Department. https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/oxford1.htm Sheriff Decker then sent me along with deputies Buddy Walthers, Harry Weathorford to a location at 2515 W. Fifth Street in Irving, Texas, to meet Dallas Police Officers to search a house there and talk to the people within. When we got at the address, officer Adamcik of the DPD and myself went to the back of the house and Officers Weatherford, Walthers and Detective Rose of the DPD and another DPD officer went to the front door. COUNTY OF DALLAS SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY Officer Buddy Walthers, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Office https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/walther1.htm Sheriff Decker then ordered me, together with Deputy Harry Weatherford and Deputy J. L. Oxford to go to a house at 25115 West 5th Street in Irving, Texas and met some officers from Capt. Will Fritz' office. We arrived at location and met detective Rose and Adamcik from the Homicide division of the Dallas Police Department. Steve Thomas They weren't waiting there for 40 minutes or whatever. That was a lie. From patspeer.com Chapter 4c: In 2014, I read a report written by Buddy Walthers, one of the deputy sheriffs the Dallas detectives had been waiting for. Walthers claimed he'd witnessed Oswald's arrest at the Texas Theater, drove back to the sheriff's office, and was then told to drive out to Irving, along with deputies Weatherford and Oxford. He said they drove straight there. Now, this was a hmmm moment for me. I've been to Dallas, and realized that a trip from the Texas Theater in Oak Cliff to downtown Dallas and then back out to Irving would take about 40 minutes. Oswald was arrested around 1:50. Walthers should have arrived at the Paine's residence around 2:30, not 3:30. Now, hmmm, did the deputies take a lunch break, and make three Dallas detectives trying to interview the wife of the suspected murderer of the President--not to mention a Dallas cop--wait for them while they chomped on a burger, or ate donuts? No, of course not. An 11-28-63 article in the Dallas Morning news, built around interviews with Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford, relates that they drove to the Paine residence with two Dallas detectives, and not that the detectives were waiting for them when they got there. And there's also this. When asked by Warren Commission counsel Albert Jenner if the police arrived at 3:30, as claimed, Ruth Paine replied "Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain." Hmmm... We have reason to doubt the story handed down by the Dallas detectives--that they waited till 3:30 for the sheriffs--do we not? Let's see, then, if we can pin down the actual time the Dallas detectives started talking to people at the Paine residence. In Marina and Lee--a 1977 book built upon numerous interviews with Oswald's wife, Marina--it is claimed that the detectives came to the door an hour after Kennedy's death was announced. Well, heck, there it is again. Kennedy's death was announced around 1:30. This put the arrival of the detectives at...2:30. Now, ain't that a coinkydink? We have another way to confirm this 2:30 approximation, moreover. Marina Oswald and Ruth Paine both claimed they'd been watching TV coverage of the shooting but had no idea Oswald had been arrested when the detectives came to their door. They said as much numerous times. Here are some recent examples: In 2002, Thomas Mallon published Mrs. Paine's Garage, a book built upon numerous interviews of Ruth Paine. Here is how Mallon described the arrival of the police at Mrs. Paine's door on 11-22-63: "There was a knock at the door. Ruth answered it and discovered a whole group of law enforcement officers, including men from the the Dallas County sheriff's department. She surmised that they were there to serve papers in connection with the divorce, until one of them announced that Oswald was in custody for shooting a policeman." And we needn't rely upon Mallon's words, either. In Where Were You? (2013), Ruth Paine described hearing about the shooting on TV, and then watching the coverage all the way up to the announcement of Kennedy's death. She then related: "It was really not too long after that there was a knock at the door, and several police officers said they had Lee Oswald in custody for shooting an officer." And she wasn't done. The 2013 book November 22, 1963 similarly includes a chapter written by the famous Ruth Paine. There, she related: "I first heard about Oswald's being in custody when police arrived at my door and told me so." So, let's think--when was Oswald's arrest announced on TV? An email chain from Gary Mack to David Von Pein, posted online, reflects their conclusions Oswald's name was first mentioned on WFAA TV around 2:40 and WBAP TV at 2:43. Hmmm... The timing of these reports makes it really difficult to believe that Marina and Ruth wouldn't have known of Oswald's arrest by the time the detectives arrived, should they have actually arrived at 3:30, as claimed. And, no, we're not done. The Warren Commission testimony of Michael Paine further erodes the credibility of the detectives' story. Paine told the commission he arrived at the house around 3:00 or 3:30, after hearing of Oswald's arrest on TV, and driving over from his work. As Paine was reported to have been working at Bell Helicopter, in Arlington, this placed his arrival around 3:00. Paine claimed, moreover, that the police were already searching the house upon his arrival. This last point was confirmed, moreover, by the report of Deputy Sheriff Weatherford, in which he claimed Paine arrived at the house about 15 minutes after he'd arrived. Well, this places the arrival of the police and deputies at the door around 2:45, not 3:30. There are still other reasons to doubt the 3:30 time of arrival proposed by detectives Rose, Adamcik, and Stovall in their report. While watching a video of Buell Wesley Frazier's 3-27-13 appearance at the Irving Central Library, one of the questions from the audience rang out like a bell. What, a man asked, led the police to come out to Irving so quickly? This man's wife was friends with Frazier's niece, Diana, and she remembered seeing the police talking to Frazier's family (presumably Frazier's sister Linnie Mae Randle) when she walked home from school at...gulp...2:30. Well, there it is again. I then realized there was yet another way to check this out. The report of Deputy Sheriff Walthers offers that upon his arrival in Irving Ruth Paine gave him the phone number of Oswald's rooming house, and that he called this in to the Sheriff's office so they could look it up in a reverse directory. Walthers said he gave the number to Sheriff Bill Decker. Decker said he gave the number to his assistant, Alan Sweatt. As Dallas homicide chief Capt. Will Fritz said he couldn't remember who gave him Oswald's address, but acknowledged receiving the address from someone and then sending three detectives out to the Oak Cliff location, it seems almost certain Sweatt was his source, and that Sweatt called Fritz to give him the address and tell him the address was in his jurisdiction. So...at what time did the Dallas detectives Fritz sent out to Oak Cliff arrive in Oak Cliff? 3:00... In his initial report (24H317) Dallas Police detective Walter Potts said he arrived at Oswald's rooming house at 3:00. He later testified it was "about 3." He was accompanied by detective R.L. Senkel and Lt. E. L. Cunningham. Neither Cunningham nor Senkel testified before the commission, but Senkel did write a separate report that is in the commission's records. In this report, Senkel confirmed that they went to the door "at 3:00 PM" (24H245). They had went to the door at 3:00 PM, let's reflect, in response to information that their fellow detectives would come to claim they didn't receive until after 3:30. It seems clear as day then that Dallas detectives Rose, Adamcik, and Stovall went up to the Paine residence around 2:30. NOT 3:30, as claimed in their report. Edited July 21, 2022 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pat Speer said: Oswald's name was first mentioned on WFAA TV around 2:40 and WBAP TV at 2:43. Hmmm... The timing of these reports makes it really difficult to believe that Marina and Ruth wouldn't have known of Oswald's arrest by the time the detectives arrived, should they have actually arrived at 3:30, as claimed. Pat, The 2:43 timestamp actually refers to WBAP-Radio, not WBAP-TV. More.... A Study Of When Oswald's Name Was First Mentioned On TV & Radio Edited July 21, 2022 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Pat Speer said: It seems clear as day then that Dallas detectives Rose, Adamcik, and Stovall went up to the Paine residence around 2:30. NOT 3:30, as claimed in their report. Pat, Oswald was brought in for questioning at 2:20 and the police were dispatched to Irving at 2:30. They couldn't have been at City Hall at 2:30 and at the Paine house in Irving at the same time. Something I have never understood is why Fritz didn't send officers out to Irving when he got the address from Truly at 1:30. Why did he wait? Something happened between the TSBD and City Hall when Fritz got back there. Fritz was all hot to trot and wanted immediately to go to Irving himself, but along the way, there was a curious little visit with Sheriff Decker that has never been explained. When Fritz got to City Hall, Oswald was already there and Fritz sent other officers to go out to Irving. There's a half an hour there between the time Fritz left the TSBD and when he got back to City Hall. https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address. Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found. Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m. Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository after you found the rifle? Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately after he told me that.Mr. BALL. You left almost immediately after he told you that? Mr. FRITZ. Almost after he told me that man, I felt it important to hold that man. Mr. BALL. Did you give descriptions to Sims and Boyd? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I told them to drive me to city hall and see if the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and my intentions were to go to the house at Irving. https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/sims.htm Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time? Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have to look at the record---on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently about 2 o'clock. Mr. BALL. You and who? Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd. Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall. Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz? Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out in the corridor there. Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas School Depository Building? Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it's across the street. Mr. BALL. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston? Mr. SIMS. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks. Mr. BALL. A couple of miles--a mile and a half? Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it is. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said: Pat, Oswald was brought in for questioning at 2:20 and the police were dispatched to Irving at 2:30. They couldn't have been at City Hall at 2:30 and at the Paine house in Irving at the same time. Something I have never understood is why Fritz didn't send officers out to Irving when he got the address from Truly at 1:30. Why did he wait? Something happened between the TSBD and City Hall when Fritz got back there. Fritz was all hot to trot and wanted immediately to go to Irving himself, but along the way, there was a curious little visit with Sheriff Decker that has never been explained. When Fritz got to City Hall, Oswald was already there and Fritz sent other officers to go out to Irving. There's a half an hour there between the time Fritz left the TSBD and when he got back to City Hall. https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address. Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found. Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m. Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository after you found the rifle? Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately after he told me that.Mr. BALL. You left almost immediately after he told you that? Mr. FRITZ. Almost after he told me that man, I felt it important to hold that man. Mr. BALL. Did you give descriptions to Sims and Boyd? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I told them to drive me to city hall and see if the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and my intentions were to go to the house at Irving. https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/sims.htm Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time? Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have to look at the record---on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently about 2 o'clock. Mr. BALL. You and who? Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd. Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall. Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz? Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out in the corridor there. Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas School Depository Building? Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it's across the street. Mr. BALL. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston? Mr. SIMS. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks. Mr. BALL. A couple of miles--a mile and a half? Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it is. Steve Thomas My recollection is that Oswald was at the station by 2. Why would no one be dispatched to find out about him for half and hour? I suspect you are relying upon the same reports that misrepresent the time of arrival at the Paine's. These reports were not signed and there are no originals in the Dallas files. There's no evidence then that these reports were even written by the men who supposedly wrote them. We have reason to suspect then that these reports were a fairy tale put together by one of Fritz's top Lt.s in the days after the shooting. As I recall his name was T.L. Baker. Edited July 21, 2022 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gram Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pat Speer said: We have reason to suspect then that these reports were a fairy tale put together by one of Fritz's top Lt.s in the days after the shooting. If I recall his name was Baker. What makes you think that Baker was the guy putting together the (allegedly) false reports? Baker’s own report is pretty vague, but it basically supports your scenario of the officers entering the home on invitation from Paine at around 2:45 with Walthers and Oxford catching up later. However, Baker also has Fritz dispatching officers to Irving and Beckley simultaneously at 2:30. https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339371/m1/7/ Baker is a pretty interesting character, and another critical witness that was never called by the WC (Well he was, but he was only asked a couple questions about Oswald’s arraignment). Baker, per his own statement to the FBI, is the guy who effectively initiated the transfer of Oswald by telling Fritz that “everything is all set” after calling to the basement to make sure “all the security measures were in effect”… Also, E.L. Cunningham told Larry Sneed that Baker was one of the officers that accompanied him out to the Beckley rooming house, which is questionable but still kind of interesting. Edited July 21, 2022 by Tom Gram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tom Gram said: What makes you think that Baker was the guy putting together the (allegedly) false reports? Baker’s own report is pretty vague, but it basically supports your scenario of the officers entering the home on invitation from Paine at around 2:45 with Walthers and Oxford catching up later. However, Baker also has Fritz dispatching officers to Irving and Beckley simultaneously at 2:30. https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339371/m1/7/ Baker is a pretty interesting character, and another critical witness that was never called by the WC (Well he was, but he was only asked a couple questions about Oswald’s arraignment). Baker, per his own statement to the FBI, is the guy who effectively initiated the transfer of Oswald by telling Fritz that “everything is all set” after calling to the basement to make sure “all the security measures were in effect”… Also, E.L. Cunningham told Larry Sneed that Baker was one of the officers that accompanied him out to the Beckley rooming house, which is questionable but still kind of interesting. As I recall there were two Bakers. The one that Was Fritz's top aide testified before the committee about his compiling of the various reports into one volume. It is clear when reading these reports that they were re-written (or even written from scratch) by the same person. The writing style. The lack of spelling errors. One explanation could be that many of the officers were poor writers, and the DPD didn't want them embarrassed on a national stage. Another could be that they wanted the reports to all support the same story. Or maybe it was a combination of the two. I decided maybe 15 years ago to put this to the test by looking through the DPD files then recently put online, and to compare the reports provided the WC with the signed originals. Only I found that there are no signed originals. You can find in the Dallas archives the original handwritten and signed copies of many of the first day witness statements. And you can find in the National archives numerous typed-up FBI reports that were then initialed by the agents. But when you look through the Dallas archives for the original police reports, written up (or even signed) by the officers, you find Bupkus. They don't exist. If I recall, moreover, these reports relate the date of the incidents described, but make no mention of when the report was written. I suspect then that they were based on the notes of the officers, and then compiled into a fairy tale by Baker in the weeks after the assassination. Edited July 22, 2022 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gram Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, Pat Speer said: As I recall there were two Bakers. The one that Was Fritz's top aide testified before the committee about his compiling of the various reports into one volume. It is clear when reading these reports that they were re-written (or even written from scratch) by the same person. The writing style. The lack of spelling errors. One explanation could be that many of the officers were poor writers, and the DPD didn't want them embarrassed on a national stage. Another could be that they wanted the reports to all support the same story. Or maybe it was a combination of the two. I decided maybe 15 years ago to put this to the test by looking through the DPD files then recently put online, and to compare the reports provided the WC with the signed originals. Only I found that there are no signed originals. You can find in the Dallas archives the original handwritten and signed copies of many of the first day witness statements. And you can find in the National archives numerous typed-up FBI reports that were then initialed by the agents. But when you look through the Dallas archives for the original police reports, written up (or even signed) by the officers, you find Bupkus. They don't exist. If I recall, moreover, these reports relate the date of the incidents describe, but make no mention of when the report was written. I suspect then that they were based on the notes of the officers, and then compiled into a fairy tale by Baker in the weeks after the assassination. Thanks Pat. I see it now, it didn’t register since Ball refers to the CD number: Mr. BALL. And you are the man who prepared Commission Document 81-B; is that correct? Mr. BAKER. I assisted in it, sir. Mr. BALL. You were sort of the editor, is that right? Mr. BAKER. Something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Tom Gram said: Thanks Pat. I see it now, it didn’t register since Ball refers to the CD number: Mr. BALL. And you are the man who prepared Commission Document 81-B; is that correct? Mr. BAKER. I assisted in it, sir. Mr. BALL. You were sort of the editor, is that right? Mr. BAKER. Something like that. Tom, CD 81 is three bound volumes of the material that Texas Attorney General, Waggoner Carr turned over to J, Lee Rankin of the Warren Commission in January of 1964. CD 81-B is the second of those bound volumes, and begins on page 311 of CD 81. That's why, if you go to page 311 of CD 81, you see a great big 1 at the bottom of the page. That confused the heck out of me for the longest time. Entitled, "Investigation o the Assassination of the President", it is basically the Dallas Police Department's case file on the assassination. See page 307 of CD 81 https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483#relPageId=307 Steve Thomas Edited July 22, 2022 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 (edited) 23 hours ago, Pat Speer said: As stated, I have not spent much time or energy on the Tippit case. But I think I see what's really going on here. Myers is angry as hell that his book is not being treated as the end-all be-all. It drives him insane. He may very well be right in that the book should be more widely studied by those writing about the Tippit killing. That's not the point. The point is that this anger has led Myers to mis-represent some of the facts. And to assert as fact one assertion that it is flat out stupid. Ridiculously stupid. Drool on the floor stupid. Stoopid. He asserts that the (non-Oswald) print on the car is irrelevant. This shows Myers' true colors and reveals a HUGE gaping hole in his book. If he was half the researcher he claims to be he would have used his contacts in cop land to submit this print for an FBI check. Because it matters. Yes, it could not be proved that the print came from the killer. But what Myers deliberately avoids because he is not really interested in any truth besides the killer being Oswald is that the ID of the print could have opened a new door in the case. And helped him sell 10-20x as many books. Because...the timing of the print is not the only relevant thing about this print, is it? It matters, really matters, whose print it is. Say the print is tied to a local gas station attendant. It helps Myers' cause. But say the print is tied to a known hit man from Chicago who flew in the night before and flew out the next day. Oops! A door opens! The guy could have walked by the car at Top Ten Records. But it doesn't matter. Why was a known mobster touching Tippit's car? Or say the print belonged to an ex-cop living on the outskirts of Dallas, who had recently come into some money. Once again, a door opens. What's up with that? So I think that Myers reveals his bias in his assertion the print is irrelevant. I remember reading an article on Lt. Day that said that, upon his retirement from the DPD, he'd had numerous offers to perform independent fingerprint exams for defendants, but refused to do so, as it wouldn't feel right to use his skills to help exonerate the wrongfully accused. This is a massive problem, btw. The FBI, after years of training field agents to work in its crime lab, came to the conclusion that work in the field affected one's judgement, and led to a bias against suspects, whereby these crime lab "experts" were far more likely to misrepresent or overstate evidence than the crime lab experts with a scientific background. At that point, they changed policy, and stopped hiring crime lab employees from the field. In any event, I suspect Myers is of this same mindset and is losing his mind at the thought of Greg Doudna taking his work on the print to suggest Oswald's possible innocence. A real researcher, one actually interested in the truth, would write Greg and discuss ways that they could get the print analyzed. Although the ability to take a single print and figure out whose print it was (beyond a suspect's) did not exist in 1963, it does now. So maybe the case can move forward. Even if it's just to prove the print belonged to some gas station attendant... P.S. It occurs to me that while Myers is now dismissive of the print, it's possible he made attempts to discover the identity of the print that were detailed in his book. If so, well, he was a better researcher then than he now appears to be. Well put Pat, quality insights, thanks. The fingerprints excluded as coming from Oswald which were found below the window vent through which the killer talked to Tippit moments before killing him, and sober consideration of the meaning of the paper-bag revolver of the caliber used in the Tippit homicide found with no known explanation to the present day hours after the Tippit homicide, are two items of physical evidence that raise reasonable doubt on the security of the narrative of Oswald's guilt in the Tippit killing. I believe the only reason anyone would reject the statement above is if one already believes it is certain that Oswald killed Tippit on other grounds. However, Myers says emphatically that is not his reasoning in the case of the fingerprints, in his conclusion that the exclusion of a match to Oswald of the fingerprints at the window vent, information newly obtained in 1994 not previously known, "doesn't add anything to the case", i.e. does not legitimately raise any reasonable doubt that Oswald might have been the killer. Myers' treatment of both the fingerprint issue, and the paper-bag revolver, if one reads below the packaging of the insults and rhetoric in which his discussion is presented, is very insubstantial. In the case of the fingerprints, his assertion that the fingerprints are irrelevant, is, Pat, you are right, "Drool on the floor stupid. Stoopid", for all the reasons you name. On the paper-bag revolver, Myers essentially paraphrases accurately the suggestion that the paper-bag revolver was thrown out of a car window by a killer after a homicide which might go to the Tippit killing as the only homicide done with a handgun in the hours before that paper-bag revolver was abandoned--as if accurately citing that suggestion in a ridiculing way is a rebuttal. Again, is it not obvious the only reason that would come across as ridiculous is if one thinks it is settled on other grounds Oswald's revolver was the murder weapon (so the one in the paper bag could not be)? That is the only reason one would find the possible relationship of that paper-bag revolver to the Tippit homicide laughable. It is not as if there are grounds other than that ruling out a connection. Myers says the paper-bag revolver "is not new". Of course the fact of the find of that paper-bag revolver is not new. But what is new is the suggestion that it could be the murder weapon of the Tippit killing. That had no prior suggestion or discussion before I raised it. There was some early misguided rabbit-hole talk about that paper-bag revolver being found at Dealey Plaza and involved in events at Dealey Plaza which was wrong. That was what the 2006 Bill Adams article noted as the lesson of his article in the conclusion, that "Assumptions can lead you into false conclusions, and speculation turned into fact will lead to embarrassment and ridicule by other researchers and the public at large." What Myers has done focuses on these two items of physical evidence for which there may be "something to see there"--unless one believes it certain on other grounds that the case against Oswald in the Tippit killing is airtight and cannot reasonably be called into question--both new, recent, newly made an issue by me (neither the fingerprints nor the paper-bag revolver appear in McBride's book; neither appear in the recent Oliver Stone films; and when I was writing about the fingerprints on this forum with hardly any interest or reaction only weeks ago, the leading gatekeeper on this forum was urging that I be ignored and mocking that "nobody is interested"). I think Myers may be threatened by these two items, when he believes he long ago had the case nailed down airtight, nailed down cold. Since I was the conveyer or one responsible for raising these issues, what he did was not simply try to refute the relevance of those two items (he really offered no substantive rebuttal apart from showing immaterial errors and ridicule), but to do so in a way that was accompanied with association with craziness and smearing and name-calling so that it would be found in the future by anyone who googles my name with respect to the Tippit case. That kind of name-calling has never happened to me before in public. That is what is going on here--a hatchet job to discredit the spectre that two items of physical evidence raise reasonable doubt in the Tippit case, claims of grounds for reasonable doubt not previously made. Often attacks follow a back story of some bad blood or negative history. In the case of Myers and me there was none. I never attacked Myers, never disparaged his work, never called him names, etc. as he has received (wrongly in my view) from others. I have always defended the quality of Myers' work on the Tippit case against others. Myers' With Malice book remains the best on the Tippit case without peer, period. A while ago I had mentioned privately to Tracy Parnell that I had been thinking about the Tippit case and thought I had something to say concerning a case for exoneration of Oswald in that killing. Tracy Parnell, with the best intentions in the world--he is a LNer and believes I was necessarily mistaken but has always been a gentleman with me--urged me to run what I had by Dale Myers. It was only for that reason that I wrote Myers an email. Myers replied that he would not engage ideas that have not been published, but if and when I had something published to let him know and he would review it. Fair enough, I understood that. I then started a thread on the Education Forum ("argument for actual innocence") of ideas in development, mainly for the purpose of obtaining constructive feedback and cross-examination and get bugs worked out (or kill it altogether if I saw it was wrong) prior to some idea of an eventual print publication. I wrote Myers one more time shortly after that on an unrelated point, a couple-sentences inquiry asking for his reference or source for an unfootnoted claim he had made in a comment on his blog, but not in his book, regarding a claim that Callaway denied that the WFAA-TV Tippit-scene wallet was Callaway's. Myers did not reply and I made no further followup. That was my last contact with Myers until waking up yesterday morning to find his machine guns blazing at me publicly on his blog--in which Myers did decide, after all, to review before publication. Its about the fingerprints, and about the paper-bag revolver. That is what I think is going on here. Edited July 22, 2022 by Greg Doudna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said: Bowley, 1: 18 ? Yeah, that's what the Dictabelt recording indicates. That's just one of many reasons I believe the Dictabelt recording has been altered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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