IMPOSSIBLE to refute this: how could anyone fire the rifle this fast?

[Vince Palamara]

 

[Vince Palamara]

The looks on Hill's and Landis' faces are priceless - you know they are thinking "Win! You are &^%&ing this up!! Retake!! Retake!!"

@James DiEugenio

Edited July 29, 2022 by Vince Palamara

[Michael Davidson]

Where the first woman is stood would tend to suggest the Daltex when she refers to the building being behind her 

[Vince Palamara]

4 minutes ago, Michael Davidson said:

Where the first woman is stood would tend to suggest the Daltex when she refers to the building being behind her 

Yes!

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

Yes!

They put her in the wrong position for that show. Donaldson was actually standing on the curb directly in front of the TSBD. She can be made out in the Wiegman film. 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

The looks on Hill's and Landis' faces are priceless - you know they are thinking "Win! You are &^%&ing this up!! Retake!! Retake!!"

@James DiEugenio

Not at all. Hill and Landis both said they heard but two shots, with Hill saying that the second one sounded like an echo. Landis, for that matter, admitted in his statements that his initial impression was that the shots came from in front of the limousine. None of them supported the single-bullet theory. If anything, Hill and Landis were thinking "Damn it, perhaps the reason we didn't hear two separate shots was because they were so damned close together."

[Chris Bristow]

It is interesting that most every report of the location of the shots comes down to just two places. If people were confused I would think reports would come from multiple places. I would think that supports the theory of two separate shooter locations.

  If the shots had been simultaneous, just as an example, the witnesses between the Thornton and Stemmons signs would have heard both noises combined into a single  shot. People in the limo like agent Greer would have heard the shots separated by an eighth of a second. People around the front of the TSB would have heard a delay of about 1/5 of a second. That is still very short and I would think the muzzle blast sounds would overlap. But the Sonic crack being so sharp and short I think people could differentiate between 1/8 of a second or probably less.

 Most everyone theorizes that a grassy knoll shot came after the last TSB shot. If that is the case then the people who heard the two noises combined as one shot would be standing west of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

If the grassy knoll shot came  after the TSB shot then Greer's account should imply that the shots were even closer together than he heard.

 if the shots were simultaneous Bowers would have heard the grassy knoll shot first by about a 20th of a second. Probably undetectable. The timing of his Taps on the table would suggest the last two shots were separated by about a fifth of a second.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

These are my estimates of the times between the bams & pows & bangs & taps from the youtube.

0:35. Donaldson.. shot-1………………………..(pause ??? sec)……………………………………bam..(0.3 sec)..bam.

0:50. Landis………..shot-1………………..….(JFK grabs neck ??? sec)…………………..………pow…....(0.5 sec)..…..pow.

1:05. Lawson………bang………..…(0.8 sec)……..…..bang.(0.2 sec).bang.

1:30. Bowers………..tap………..…..(0.8 sec)…………...tap.(0.2 sec).tap.

Funny – Bowers says that the time between the last 2 taps is too fast for one shooter. But he is apparently happy that one shooter could shoot the first two shots in 0.8 sec.

In reality Oswald's shot-1 was at about (pseudo) Z113 & his shot-2 was at about Z218, which is 105 frames which is about 5.7 sec. And Z313 is 95 frames later, which is about 5.2.   Total 10.9 sec.

The 10.9 sec accords with Connally's initial estimates. And it accords with a number of other witnesses.

So, the witnesses in this youtube are an example of how bad witnesses can be, especially after many years.

Bowers' interview was not long after, but i suspect that he didn’t hear any of Oswald's two shots, i think he heard Hickey's auto burst of at least 4 shots (plus echoes), taking less than 1 sec (plus echoes).

Edited July 29, 2022 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Vince Palamara]

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Not at all. Hill and Landis both said they heard but two shots, with Hill saying that the second one sounded like an echo. Landis, for that matter, admitted in his statements that his initial impression was that the shots came from in front of the limousine. None of them supported the single-bullet theory. If anything, Hill and Landis were thinking "Damn it, perhaps the reason we didn't hear two separate shots was because they were so damned close together."

True. The looks on their faces do seem "concerned" haha!

[Vince Palamara]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

They put her in the wrong position for that show. Donaldson was actually standing on the curb directly in front of the TSBD. She can be made out in the Wiegman film. 

Thanks for the info!

[Michael Griffith]

The simple fact of the matter is that no one has ever truly duplicated Oswald's alleged shooting feat of 2/3 in 6 seconds. The only way to expand the firing time is to assume that he missed the first shot, the closest and easiest shot. 

The only test that involved the alleged murder rifle itself is very revealing.

The WC hired three Master-rated riflemen to attempt to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat. The three Master-rated shooters who participated in that test fired 18 rounds while using the scope and three rounds while using the iron sights. They used the alleged murder weapon, the Mannlicher-Carcano that was traced to Lee Harvey Oswald. Tellingly, they missed the head and neck area of the target board silhouettes 18 out of 18 times when they used the scope, and 2 out of 3 times when they used the iron sights. In other words, they missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 20 out of 21 times.  Several of their misses were far apart on the boards. Some of their shots missed the silhouettes entirely. It's revealing that they shot so poorly even though they were allowed to take as long as they wanted for the first shot, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire, even though they were only firing from 30 feet up, and even though they were shooting at stationary--yes, stationary--target boards.

The three riflemen in the test were named Miller, Hendrix, and Staley. (Their first names were never given.) In the first series, Miller took 4.6 seconds to fire three shots, Staley took 6.75 seconds, and Hendrix took 8.25 seconds. In the next series, Miller took 5.15 seconds, Staley took 6.45 seconds, and Hendrix took 7 seconds. It bears repeating that Oswald would have had only one attempt, only one series. Oswald supposedly scored two hits out of three shots, yet Miller, Hendrix, and Staley—all Master-rated riflemen—missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 20 out of 21 times.

[Pat Speer]

42 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

The simple fact of the matter is that no one has ever truly duplicated Oswald's alleged shooting feat of 2/3 in 6 seconds. The only way to expand the firing time is to assume that he missed the first shot, the closest and easiest shot. 

The only test that involved the alleged murder rifle itself is very revealing.

The WC hired three Master-rated riflemen to attempt to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat. The three Master-rated shooters who participated in that test fired 18 rounds while using the scope and three rounds while using the iron sights. They used the alleged murder weapon, the Mannlicher-Carcano that was traced to Lee Harvey Oswald. Tellingly, they missed the head and neck area of the target board silhouettes 18 out of 18 times when they used the scope, and 2 out of 3 times when they used the iron sights. In other words, they missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 20 out of 21 times.  Several of their misses were far apart on the boards. Some of their shots missed the silhouettes entirely. It's revealing that they shot so poorly even though they were allowed to take as long as they wanted for the first shot, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire, even though they were only firing from 30 feet up, and even though they were shooting at stationary--yes, stationary--target boards.

The three riflemen in the test were named Miller, Hendrix, and Staley. (Their first names were never given.) In the first series, Miller took 4.6 seconds to fire three shots, Staley took 6.75 seconds, and Hendrix took 8.25 seconds. In the next series, Miller took 5.15 seconds, Staley took 6.45 seconds, and Hendrix took 7 seconds. It bears repeating that Oswald would have had only one attempt, only one series. Oswald supposedly scored two hits out of three shots, yet Miller, Hendrix, and Staley—all Master-rated riflemen—missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 20 out of 21 times.

Let's be clear. They weren't aiming for the head. They were aiming for the center of the target. But even so, their "success" rate was far less than Oswald's purported "success" rate, as their hits were not as close to the center of the target as the hits attributed to Oswald. 

Here are the targets for shots 1 and 2. For the the first of these the test shooters were given all the time they needed, after performing some warm-up shots. (The hits attributed to Oswald are marked by red stars.) Now notice how their accuracy drops off considerably on the second target, after they began rapid fire. And then realize that the first shot attributed to Oswald was also rapid fire, as this shot is purported to have occurred as the limo cleared the trees. 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Ron Ege]

I remember my 1967 reading of SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS; my thought then was how could anyone with even minimal rifle shooting experience - buy the WC scenario - even if adding a second or two.  

[Michael Griffith]

9 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

The simple fact of the matter is that no one has ever truly duplicated Oswald's alleged shooting feat of 2/3 in 6 seconds. The only way to expand the firing time is to assume that he missed the first shot, the closest and easiest shot. 

The only test that involved the alleged murder rifle itself is very revealing.

The WC hired three Master-rated riflemen to attempt to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat. The three Master-rated shooters who participated in that test fired 18 rounds while using the scope and three rounds while using the iron sights. They used the alleged murder weapon, the Mannlicher-Carcano that was traced to Lee Harvey Oswald. Tellingly, they missed the head and neck area of the target board silhouettes 18 out of 18 times when they used the scope, and 2 out of 3 times when they used the iron sights. In other words, they missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 20 out of 21 times.  Several of their misses were far apart on the boards. Some of their shots missed the silhouettes entirely. It's revealing that they shot so poorly even though they were allowed to take as long as they wanted for the first shot, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire, even though they were only firing from 30 feet up, and even though they were shooting at stationary--yes, stationary--target boards.

The three riflemen in the test were named Miller, Hendrix, and Staley. (Their first names were never given.) In the first series, Miller took 4.6 seconds to fire three shots, Staley took 6.75 seconds, and Hendrix took 8.25 seconds. In the next series, Miller took 5.15 seconds, Staley took 6.45 seconds, and Hendrix took 7 seconds. It bears repeating that Oswald would have had only one attempt, only one series. Oswald supposedly scored two hits out of three shots, yet Miller, Hendrix, and Staley—all Master-rated riflemen—missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 20 out of 21 times.

And I think it needs to be emphasized that Oswald would have had only one attempt, one series.

Another factor we should add is the cramped quarters of the sniper's nest, a factor that no rifle test has included.

Further, we should require that the riflemen in any rifle test possess only the same mediocre skill that Oswald possessed. At Oswald's best day at the range in the Marines, he barely qualified in the second of three categories. He never qualified as an Expert, the highest category. And everyone who saw him shoot in Russia said he was a poor shot.

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

And I think it needs to be emphasized that Oswald would have had only one attempt, one series.

Another factor we should add is the cramped quarters of the sniper's nest, a factor that no rifle test has included.

Further, we should require that the riflemen in any rifle test possess only the same mediocre skill that Oswald possessed. At Oswald's best day at the range in the Marines, he barely qualified in the second of three categories. He never qualified as an Expert, the highest category. And everyone who saw him shoot in Russia said he was a poor shot.

Your second point has inspired me to start a thread sharing some stuff on my website that has mostly gone unnoticed. I will start a thread on it called Sniper's Nest Shenanigans.