Klein's didn't start selling the 40" rifle until August, 1963

[Gil Jesus]

One of the magazines Klein's ran ads in every month in 1963 was Guns Magazine. Their magazines are on line and the Klein's ads in those editions indicate that Klein's did not start advertising the 40" rifle until August, 1963. This casts doubts on the LNers' speculation that Klein's ran out of  36" rifles in March and simply substituted 40" rifles in their place. These are the monthly editions for 1963 from April to August and the corresponding pages of the Klein's ads:
 

April, 1963, pg. 15
https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0463.pdf
 

May 1963, pg. 67
https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0563.pdf
 

June 1963, pg. 11
https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0663.pdf
 

July 1963, pg. 13

https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0763.pdf

 

------------Klein's starts advertising the 40" rifle-----------
 

August 1963, pg. 15
 

https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0863.pdf

 

This evidence indicates that the Depository 40" rifle was not available for sale until August, 1963.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Gerry Down]

They could have requested in early 1963 a few of the 40 inch versions to test them in advance of ordering more later that year. And it was one of these testing rifles they sent to Oswald. It would make sense that they would first order a few test samples of a product before ordering larger quantities of them. 

The supplier might even have, off their own initiative, given Kleins a few free 40 inch rifles in early 1963 in the hope Kleins would order more of them and sell them in their magazine, which they evidently did in Aug 1963 as you've laid out. 

[Gil Jesus]

11 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

They could have requested in early 1963 a few of the 40 inch versions to test them in advance of ordering more later that year. And it was one of these testing rifles they sent to Oswald. It would make sense that they would first order a few test samples of a product before ordering larger quantities of them. 

The supplier might even have, off their own initiative, given Kleins a few free 40 inch rifles in early 1963 in the hope Kleins would order more of them and sell them in their magazine, which they evidently did in Aug 1963 as you've laid out. 

Do you have any evidence that this was the case ?

[Gerry Down]

23 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Do you have any evidence that this was the case ?

I don't have any evidence as I have not investigated the topic that deep. But simply the possibility would suffice. There is no evidence that Kleins did not have 40 inch versions of the rifle in their possession in March 1963. 

Its an interesting discovery you've laid out in your opening post, but its not suffice to definitively separate Oswald from ordering the assassination rifle in March 1963 given all the other evidence linking him to that rifle.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Gerry Down

[Gil Jesus]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

I don't have any evidence as I have not investigated the topic that deep. But simply the possibility would suffice. There is no evidence that Kleins did not have 40 inch versions of the rifle in their possession in March 1963. 

Its an interesting discovery you've laid out in your opening post, but its not suffice to definitively separate Oswald from ordering the assassination rifle in March 1963 given all the other evidence linking him to that rifle.

I see so your speculation ( "the possibility" ) would suffice but my cold hard evidence would not.

I hate to burst your bubble, but speculation does not trump evidence.

Evidence trumps evidence.

You speculate that some kind of "test rifles" were sent to Klein's and there's no evidence in the record that that's so. You're grasping for straws, mate.

Let's look at the "other evidence linking him to the rifle":

The shipping papers that did not include the serial number of the rifle or the number of the carton that contained it.

The list of rifles that was undated. ( Waldman Exhibit 3 )

The money order that was never paid. ( CE 788 )

The Klein's "Bank Deposit" that was made on Feb 15th and the monthly statement of 3/13/63 ( Waldman Exhibit 10 )

What about the fact that more than one rifle had the same serial number ? ( CE 2562 )

The money order that was purchased and the envelope that was postmarked while Oswald was at work. ( CE 1855 )

The FBI report that says that "A.Hidell" was not on part 3 of the PO box application. ( CE 2585 )

Why did they identify Oswald's handwriting from copies and not original documents ?

https://4n6.com/handwriting-and-forgery-examination/

The rifle ordered and appears in the backyard photographs has bottom sling mounts but the Depository rifle has side sling mounts. ( CE 133-A )

Then we have the concrete word of Marina Oswald, who told the FBI the rifle was her husband's but admitted to the Warren Commission that she lied several times to the FBI.

You mean all of that evidence ?

Maybe you should take a look at that evidence again:

https://gil-jesus.com/the-rifle/

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Mark Ulrik]

2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

This evidence indicates that the Depository 40" rifle was not available for sale until August, 1963.

If you want to use these ads as an indicator of when the 40" rifles came into stock, you should at least take into consideration that magazines are typically postdated. An August issue will likely hit the stands in (early) July. There's also such a thing as deadlines for reserving ad space and submitting artwork. What were these deadlines for the previous issue? May something?

Edited August 16, 2022 by Mark Ulrik

[David Von Pein]

Klein's was positively advertising the 40-inch rifle as early as April of 1963. This fact was proven many years ago when Gary Mack sent me an e-mail which featured the info about all of the Klein's ads that appeared in American Rifleman magazine throughout the year of '63. (The Sixth Floor Museum had copies of all those magazines.)

And since we can see that the 40-inch version of the Italian carbine was being advertised in the April issue, that has to mean that people were actually seeing that ad in the month of March '63 (the same month Oswald placed his order with Klein's), because the magazine would certainly have hit the newsstands well prior to April 1st.

Here's the American Rifleman listing Gary Mack sent me back in 2010:

Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above

Mar 63 -- No ad

Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66

Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above

Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above

Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above

Nov 63 -- No ad

Dec 63 -- No ad

[Source: E-mail to David Von Pein from Gary Mack, August 18, 2010.]

---------------------

More info below refuting the ultra-stupid "Oswald Never Ordered The C2766 Rifle And All Of The Klein's Paperwork Was Faked" theory that never stops getting repeated by Internet conspiracy theorists:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Gerry Down]

17 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Klein's was positively advertising the 40-inch rifle as early as April of 1963. This fact was proven many years ago when Gary Mack sent me an e-mail which featured the info about all of the Klein's ads that appeared in American Rifleman magazine throughout the year of '63.

And since we can see that the 40-inch version of the Italian carbine was being advertised in the April issue, that has to mean that people were actually seeing that ad in the month of March '63 (the same month Oswald placed his order with Klein's), because the magazine would certainly have hit the newsstands well prior to April 1st.

Here's the American Rifleman listing Gary Mack sent me back in 2010:

Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above

Mar 63 -- No ad

Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66

Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above

Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above

Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above

Nov 63 -- No ad

Dec 63 -- No ad

[Source: E-mail to David Von Pein from Gary Mack, August 18, 2010.]

More info below refuting the ultra-stupid "Oswald Never Ordered The C2766 Rifle" theory that never stops getting repeated by Internet conspiracy theorists:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/12/oswald-ordered-rifle.html

 

This makes very good sense. Because Oswald ordered his rifle in March 1963, at a time when the April 1963 edition of American Rifleman was in shops and had the 40 inch version of the rifle for sale in it, when the order came in from Oswald in March to Kleins, it was very easy to make the mistake and send out a 40 inch version of the rifle because that was the one being advertised in the latest edition of American Rifleman (the April 1963 edition) at that time. 

[James DiEugenio]

Oswald never ordered any such rifle.

We have been through this for ages.

And people keep on dredging up the same evidence that does not fly.

Not even Marina, perhaps the most compromised witness in this case, would admit that was the rifle to the Secret service. 

If it was so common to send out the  wrong rifle, why does Belin never bring up that assumed fact?  The FBI had the run of Klein's did they not? Are you going to say that Belin did not know it was the wrong rifle?

Why does not one witness from the post office recall going into the back, retrieving that long box and turning it over?

Where did Oswald get  that rear strap drilled in?

Does anyone really think a money order could be flown from Dallas, to the main Chicago post office, sent out to the local tributary office and then hand carried to Klein's, and then go through their sorting system, and then carried over to the bank for deposit in 24 hours?

If you buy that, I can sell you some valuable swampland in Florida.  

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

38 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Does anyone really think a money order could be flown from Dallas, to the main Chicago post office, sent out to the local tributary office and then hand carried to Klein's, and then go through their sorting system, and then carried over to the bank for deposit in 24 hours?

IN NOVEMBER 2020, DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

To further illustrate the fact that the Post Office Department in Dallas, Texas, could, indeed, move the mail very quickly from Dallas to other U.S. cities in the late 1950s and early 1960s, check out the 1959 video at this link.

Also see this "News Script" (pictured below as well), which is connected with the "Rocket Run" video. (My thanks to Steve Roe for unearthing these items.)





 

More:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Mark Ulrik]

58 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

What about the fact that more than one rifle had the same serial number ? ( CE 2562 )

You keep recycling claims like this despite knowing full well that there has never been more than one documented C2766 rifle. Why?

[David Von Pein]

Re: Commission Exhibit No. 2562:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-323.html

 

[James DiEugenio]

Mark please.  

The guy who owned Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods told the FBI that Mussolini ordered many arms factories in Italy to produce the MC rifles and carbines. With many companies doing so, "The same serial number appears on weapons manufactured by more than one concern. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not." (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 83)

The late Tom Purvis showed this since he had one made in 1940 which had the number C5522, made at the Gardone factory.  Obviously they had to pass the number 2766 to get to that number. (ibid). Just do the math, all those factories produced about 3 million of these rifles. Before he changed his story Lattimer said he had one  with that serial number. (Martha Moyer, "Ordering the Rifle", JFK Lancer.)

Edited August 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

52 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

The guy who owned Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods told the FBI that Mussolini ordered many arms factories in Italy to produce the MC rifles and carbines. With many companies doing so, "The same serial number appears on weapons manufactured by more than one concern. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not." (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, p. 83)

The key there would be the last sentence here:

"The same serial number appears on weapons manufactured by more than one concern. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not."

I think the above words (which come from CE2562) very likely could (and should) be interpreted in the following manner:

The exact same 4-digit serial NUMBER (i.e., the numerals 0 through 9) can appear on multiple Mannlicher-Carcano Model 91/38 rifles that were manufactured at different plants, but if the very same 4-digit number does appear on any two rifles, then one of these rifles will include a letter prefix in front of the 4-digit number, while the other rifle will not have this prefix.

 

52 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

The late Tom Purvis showed this since he had one made in 1940 which had the number C5522, made at the Gardone factory.  Obviously they had to pass the number 2766 to get to that number. (ibid). Just do the math, all those factories produced about 3 million of these rifles. Before he changed his story Lattimer said he had one  with that serial number. (Martha Moyer, "Ordering the Rifle", JFK Lancer.)

Jim D. just can't let go of any of these tired worn-out myths, can he? (And I also doubt that Jim will ever be able to fully accept as fact that Elmer Todd's initials do, indeed, reside on Bullet CE399.)

Re: Purvis and Lattimer and C2766:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-8.html

Excerpt from above link (highlighting Jim's complete denial of a known and proven fact):

"It is doubtful that Klein's stocked a forty inch rifle in 1963." -- James DiEugenio; 2008

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

The key there would be the last sentence here:

"The same serial number appears on weapons manufactured by more than one concern. Some bear a letter prefix and some do not."

I think the above words (which come from CE2562) very likely could (and should) be interpreted in the following manner:

The exact same 4-digit serial NUMBER (i.e., the numerals 0 through 9) can appear on multiple Mannlicher-Carcano Model 91/38 rifles that were manufactured at different plants, but if the very same 4-digit number does appear on any two rifles, then one of these rifles will include a letter prefix in front of the 4-digit number, while the other rifle will not have this prefix.

 

Jim D. just can't let go of any of these tired worn-out myths, can he? (And I also doubt that Jim will ever be able to fully accept as fact that Elmer Todd's initials do, indeed, reside on Bullet CE399.)

Re: Purvis and Lattimer and C2766:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-8.html

Excerpt from above link (highlighting Jim's complete denial of a known and proven fact):

"It is doubtful that Klein's stocked a forty inch rifle in 1963." -- James DiEugenio; 2008

 

 

David, I’m kind of in the middle on this debate, and I think the evidence suggests that Klein’s did have 40” rifles in stock at the time. According to Fred Rupp’s shipping book, there were 300 40” rifles shipped from Crescent Firearms to Klein’s in February ‘63. However, there is evidence that Klein’s also may have had 36” rifles in stock at the time of the Hidell order that the WC either chose to ignore or deliberately avoided.

Over 50 36” rifles were also shipped out by Crescent in Feb ‘63, but the WC made no effort to determine who those rifles went to. Also, on the WC copy of Waldman Exhibit 1, the Oct. ‘62 requested delivery date for the 400 36” rifles is completely illegible, even though it is clear as day on the FBI copy. Since the order was placed in Jan ‘62, the effect of this was to make it seem like the rifles were delivered much earlier than they actually were. The WC also made no effort to determine Klein’s sales volume, and didn’t ask a single question about 36 vs. 40” rifles to either William Waldman or Mitchell Scibor. As a result we got a horribly inadequate investigation, and when Mitchell Westra, the guy who should have testified to the WC was deposed by the HSCA, he gave some pretty provocative information that cast doubt on whether Klein’s would have shipped out a scope mounted 40” rifle at all. 

The point is the evidence is inconclusive, and the WC and FBI’s handling of the rifle investigation ranges from extremely inadequate bungled idiocy to actually suspicious.