Klein's didn't start selling the 40" rifle until August, 1963

[Pat Speer]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well if that is all that was holding Mack to the CTer position, then I can't hold it against him if he switched. I mean, the Badgeman stuff is very weak and the dictabelt stuff is hard to understand. I'm surprised he was ever a CTer based on that. He needs to read some better books.

 

Mack was one of the creators of the Badgeman theory and he helped bring attention to the dictabelt. 

Like most researchers, he had an emotional connection to things he helped "discover". The "Eureka" moment is powerful, and people rarely change their opinions on something once they've had a "Eureka" moment. 

In my case, there have been a number of "Eureka" moments. But probably the first and most powerful one was when I realized that the so-called "mystery" photo of Kennedy's empty cranium was officially a photo of his forehead. At that moment I knew the whole single-assassin case was a castle made of sand, just waiting to crumble. And I've never wavered.

If a hundred doctors looked at that photo and concluded it showed his forehead, moreover, I would declare that they were full of crap. Eureka moments are powerful things. 

[Gil Jesus]

On 8/15/2022 at 6:56 PM, Gil Jesus said:

One of the magazines Klein's ran ads in every month in 1963 was Guns Magazine. Their magazines are on line and the Klein's ads in those editions indicate that Klein's did not start advertising the 40" rifle until August, 1963. This casts doubts on the LNers' speculation that Klein's ran out of  36" rifles in March and simply substituted 40" rifles in their place. These are the monthly editions for 1963 from April to August and the corresponding pages of the Klein's ads:
 

April, 1963, pg. 15
https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0463.pdf
 

May 1963, pg. 67
https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0563.pdf
 

June 1963, pg. 11
https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0663.pdf
 

July 1963, pg. 13

https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0763.pdf

 

------------Klein's starts advertising the 40" rifle-----------
 

August 1963, pg. 15
 

https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G0863.pdf

 

This evidence indicates that the Depository 40" rifle was not available for sale until August, 1963.

As a truth seeker, I need to resolve this in my own mind, so I've ordered the April, May and June 1963 editions of American Rifleman. I want to see for myself if the Klein's ad for April has the 40" rifle and if they continued advertising it in May and June or if the April ad was an error. I should have the mags in 7-10 days and I'll post what I find out.

I remain puzzled why they would advertise the 36" Troop Special in one magazine five months after they started advertising the 40" Short Rifle in another. They're not even the same rifle. But I'm going to look into this, for sure.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

As a truth seeker, I need to resolve this in my own mind, so I've ordered the April, May and June 1963 editions of American Rifleman. I want to see for myself if the Klein's ad for April has the 40" rifle and if they continued advertising it in May and June or if the April ad was an error. I should have the mags in 7-10 days and I'll post what I find out.

I remain puzzled why they would advertise the 36" Troop Special in one magazine five months after they started advertising the 40" Short Rifle in another. They're not even the same rifle. But I'm going to look into this, for sure.

It could have to do with the advertising contract, could have been a (e.g.) six month contract for an unchanged advertisement (cheaper), the other one a 1/2/3/...month contract. Just something that came to my mind.

[Mark Ulrik]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Mark:

Like that one, an error, with the rifle in his possession.  😙

And somehow Tom Purvis' rifle number means nothing.

As does the 3 million MC rifles. 

Nice magic act.

 

I'm not crazy enough to rule out the possibility that there could be more than one C2766 rifle, but (as you admitted earlier) actually locating the others is another matter. Yet you believe that a private citizen like Lattimer was somehow able to. How do you explain this apparent contradiction?

[Mark Ulrik]

35 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

As a truth seeker, I need to resolve this in my own mind, so I've ordered the April, May and June 1963 editions of American Rifleman. I want to see for myself if the Klein's ad for April has the 40" rifle and if they continued advertising it in May and June or if the April ad was an error. I should have the mags in 7-10 days and I'll post what I find out.

Apologizing to Gary Murr would also seem appropriate.

[Gil Jesus]

51 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

It could have to do with the advertising contract, could have been a (e.g.) six month contract for an unchanged advertisement (cheaper), the other one a 1/2/3/...month contract. Just something that came to my mind.

You might be right about that. It certainly would explain why they could change the American Rifleman ads month to month and why they didn't change the ads in Guns Magazine. I noticed that the ad Mr. Murr posted from the April A-R was the exact same ad that appeared in the August edition of Guns, with the exception of the prices. The prices in the August Guns were a little cheaper. So I'm curious to see what the ads offered in the A-R May and June editions especially.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

You might be right about that. It certainly would explain why they could change the American Rifleman ads month to month and why they didn't change the ads in Guns Magazine. I noticed that the ad Mr. Murr posted from the April A-R was the exact same ad that appeared in the August edition of Guns, with the exception of the prices. The prices in the August Guns were a little cheaper. So I'm curious to see what the ads offered in the A-R May and June editions especially.

Field and Stream is another one that'd be worth checking out. The Department numbers on the ads I think are what linked each order to an ad in a specific magazine.

Also, there's copies of a bunch of Klein's ads in the Baylor John Armstrong Collection. There's also a list for American Rifleman that states they switched to 40" rifles in April '63, and only switched back to 36" rifles in December:

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/rifle-info-kleins-advertising/717377?item=717391

The 36" rifles were advertised in other magazines though throughout 1963. 

[Steve Roe]

Gil Jesus, your claim that Klein's started selling 40" MC's in August has been soundly debunked. 

Will you at least admit your error?

[James DiEugenio]

Pat:

This is the puzzler about Gary Mack:  if he really harbored doubts--through Badge Man and the acoustics--then why did he become the main talking head on two of the very worst shows ever on the JFK case:  ITTC and the one on Jack Ruby.

And BTW, although hardly anyone has noted it, the second one might have been even worse than the first one.

Was it for the money?  By all accounts, he was making a six figure salary at the Sixth Floor. And they were credited with helping produce both films he hosted.  

Edited August 17, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

BTW Pat, the company that produced those two turds was Creative Differences.

Robert Erickson got his name on both.  He is based in North Hollywood, which I was in rather close proximity to.

After the first one, ITTC, I got in contact with him when I heard he was going to do another one on Ruby.

Again, he never got back to me.  Even though I offered to drive up there and talk to him about Ruby.

What they did with the whole Ruby entering the DPD basement and what he did after--which you can see in Evidence of Revision--was pretty awful.

So, what is the best spin one can put on Gary taking part in something like that? 

Edited August 17, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Gil Jesus]

21 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Field and Stream is another one that'd be worth checking out. The Department numbers on the ads I think are what linked each order to an ad in a specific magazine.

Also, there's copies of a bunch of Klein's ads in the Baylor John Armstrong Collection. There's also a list for American Rifleman that states they switched to 40" rifles in April '63, and only switched back to 36" rifles in December:

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/rifle-info-kleins-advertising/717377?item=717391

The 36" rifles were advertised in other magazines though throughout 1963. 

So it seems then that they never did run out of 36" rifles.

I've learned not to trust totally what Armstrong says so I'll wait until I see the ads for myself. I'm not afraid of being wrong, that's part of research. You throw sh*t against the wall. Sometimes it sticks, sometimes it doesn't. My measuring stick was Guns Magazine. Klein's didn't advertise the 40" rifle in Guns until August. That's what I went by. In hindsight, I should have posted it as a question. Now I have to wait until I get the magazines for the answer.

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Pat Speer]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

BTW Pat, the company that produced those two turds was Creative Differences.

Robert Erickson got his name on both.  He is based in North Hollywood, which I was in rather close proximity to.

After the first one, ITTC, I got in contact with him when I heard he was going to do another one on Ruby.

Again, he never got back to me.  Even though I offered to drive up there and talk to him about Ruby.

What they did with the whole Ruby entering the DPD basement and what he did after--which you can see in Evidence of Revision--was pretty awful.

So, what is the best spin one can put on Gary taking part in something like that? 

My guess as to Gary's motives is just that, a guess. But it makes sense to me. Gary was a mainstream guy, interested in mainstream success. He had some success as a DJ, and some success within the research community. But he wanted more. When he got the job with the museum, he was in heaven. It was pretty much his dream job. But there was a problem.   The people behind the museum had promised Dallas' high and mighty that the museum and its exhibits would not reflect badly on Dallas. And they made this clear to Gary. So he was compromised from the get-go.

As time progressed, moreover, many of the most prominent CTs (e.g. Groden, Marrs) took to claiming Gary was a sell-out. So he pulled away from CT-land. Within a few years, for that matter, his closest compadres re the assassination were Reitzes and (I believe) Myers. So he gave the appearance of someone who changed "teams" even though he had not.

Let's be honest. Reitzes and Mack were right about many of the theories they opposed. But, in opposing them, they burned a lot of bridges, to the extent that many assumed they were being paid to lie.

As to my personal experience with Gary... You may remember that Gary felt that his job precluded him from posting on this forum, but not participating. If you seemed unaware of something of which he was aware, he might send you an email telling you what he thought you should know. Well, some people hated this. They felt that he was harassing them, or that he was letting them know that he (and the guvment) were watching them.

My experience was a bit different. I received maybe 50 emails from Gary over a 6 or 7 year period. I'd guess that 40 of them were helpful, 5 were rants about others, and 5 were rants about me. There were a couple of points on which he challenged me, moreover, on which I challenged him right back. On one he conceded his mistake and on the other he refused to concede, even though I was obviously correct. 

In any event, Gary's position with the museum, and his background in radio, led to some TV appearances. As stated, these programs were quite deceptive in parts. Pretty bad. I suspect that he was simply ill-informed on certain topics, and that he had drank the Kool-Aid on others. 

Now, on to the mystery... In early 2008, a prominent LN who had been featured on TV asked me what tests I'd like to see performed by the Disco Channel. I spelled out a few tests I'd like to see performed, but said that one test NEEDED to be performed. My research by that time had led me to believe the explosion at Z-313 was a tangential wound created by a bullet fired from the sixth floor sniper's nest. I said that someone needed to fire a shot from that angle...that impacted at the supposed exit...to see if the explosion on the skull and resultant wound resembled that in Z-313 and the autopsy photos. Towards the end of the year Inside the Target Car was broadcast. No such simulation was presented. They fired at a simulated skull from the sniper's nest, but they always aimed for the so-called cowlick entrance. 

A year or so later, however, a video appeared online. This was an outtake from the program, that had been added back in for the DVD. In this video, the shooter missed the so-called cowlick entrance and hit extremely close to the supposed exit, and replicated the explosion of skull seen in Z-313, and the large tangential wound described at autopsy. The Disco Channel had proved the viability of my theory! 

Now, I wondered if this was just a coincidence--that I would tell a rep for the Disco Channel what test needed to be conducted, and that this test would then be conducted, and put up online. 

It seemed possible then that Gary had arranged for my theory to be tested--and that he had later arranged for this test to be broadcast online.

This makes sense on a personal level, moreover. With the broadcast of Inside the Target Car, I was fairly disgusted with Gary. I'd started a number of threads about how crappy that show was, and how misleading his appearance was. So he probably wouldn't have told me "Hey, look what we tested! This really helps your theory!" 

But he also wouldn't just bury it... I suspect that, even with his questionable alliances and deceptive appearances, Gary was on the hunt till the end. I don't know if anyone else here has ever been to the sixth floor museum research library, but I have, and I was surprised that those working there were very excited to help and very interested in conspiracy theories. And I know Steve Fagan, Gary's protege, can be quite helpful. Heck, a few years back, he went into the sixth floor window exhibit and took pictures from the supposed seat, because I'd asked him to, and he, too, was curious if someone sitting down on a box in that location would be able to see the limo's location at Z-313. 

RIP, Gary. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Mark Knight]

Gary Mack was helpful to me in my meager research, but eventually I grew tired of being a "sock puppet" for him. Eventually I stopped reposting the information he was emailing me because I was tired of being used in that fashion. After that, I called him out on the "sock puppet" aspect. Quite often, in fact.

My problem with being a conduit for Mack's information was that, if/when someone disagreed with Mack, they attacked ME because I was the one who had posted Mack's information. I realized I was giving Mack a free pass to spread the information he wanted to put out there without dealing with the consequences of facing the doubters himself. To this day, I consider that a chickensh*t position on Mack's part. I got tired of drawing the fire that should've been aimed at his position, not mine.

[Steve Thomas]

On 8/16/2022 at 5:49 PM, Tom Gram said:

 

Another fun fact, both Alwyn Cole and James Cadigan concluded that Oswald filled out the money order based strictly on the handwriting on the form other than the Hidell signature. Neither of the two WC document examiners gave any testimony whatsoever about the Hidell signature on the form, which is more than a little odd considering the level of detail those guys testified to on other questioned documents. 

Tom,

4) The handwriting experts commissioned by the HSCA were not asked to analyze the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, or to compare the signature on the rifle order form with the signature on the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo.

HSCA VOLUME VIII HANDWRITING ANALYSIS OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD p. 223

March, 1979

http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/hscahand.htm

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961#relPageId=227&tab=page

The HSCA submitted 63 samples from 50 documents items to handwriting experts JOSEPH P. MC NALLY and DAVID J. PURTELL and CHARLES C. SCOTT

FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS OF CHARLES C. SCOTT

(139) (Question. Although they purport to be the handwriting of one Hidell, were the postal money order (item 29) and the envelope addressed to Kleins (item 30) actually written by the person who wrote the signatures and other writings which purport to be Oswald's? (140) Opinion. The original of the money order (item 29) was examined and compared with the original writings purporting to be Oswald's. I am of the opinion that the fill-ins on the face of this money order are in the handwriting of the same person as the signatures and writings purporting to be Oswald's.

 

(He used the term “fill ins”. He did not say signature.)

The writing on the money order conforms with the writing purporting to be that of Oswald on the other documents in every material way, including writing movement and rhythm (L) as well as the pictorial aspects of form or design, proportions, alignment, slant, and connections. It is also significant that the writing on this money order shows no indication of being a mere copy or imitation of the writing purporting to be that of Oswald. This money order was submitted in the original, and hence it was possible to give it a complete microscopic examination and to study it under the infrared image converter. (141)

What is not included in this batch however, is the Selective Service card in the name of Hidell.

What was not done was to compare the signatures on the Hidell Selective Service card with the signature on the rifle's postal money order.

To me, this is very odd, because the government's entire case rests on this.

I wrote a piece on this back in 2018 called, "Did Marina order therifle?

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24667-did-marina-order-the-rifle/#comment-370831

Steve Thomas

Edited August 18, 2022 by Steve Thomas

[Gary Murr]

On 8/17/2022 at 4:24 PM, Gil Jesus said:

Now I have to wait until I get the magazines for the answer.

The Klein ads in the May and June 1963 issues of AR [p. 59] both show the 40" version of the MC. 

 

 

Edited February 6 by Gary Murr