The second bag in the post-office ?

[Richard Price]

22 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I guess my question is this: is the lack of Dallas postmark odd at all and/or evidence that the fake Dallas address label was pasted on after the package was already received in Irving?

With Irving and Dallas so close together, it would be hard to say.  In the office in which I worked, there were at least four cities within approximately 10 miles.  Mail from all would sometimes appear in our incoming mail (through local drop boxes or our office drop box).  All the mail originating in our office was given a local postmark to show that it had originated in one of our depositories for mail.  If it showed a destination of one of the four other localities, it would be sent to the nearest processing center and arrive at the destination post office the next day (normally).  Once it had the origin postmark, it would not have received another, but would have been stamped with "postage due" or any other descriptive endorsement necessary, such as "NSN"- no such number, "NSA" - no such address and so on.  Clerks would make these endorsements many times, as they/me had the street names and number range for those streets memorized for sortation purposes.  Once the mail piece reached the carrier, they also could endorse the mail to show that the exact number was not valid for delivery, that the person named above the address was unknown, moved with no forwarding order, etc.  All mail not delivered had to have an endorsement - it was a requirement for both clerks and carriers.  They were not to allow undelivered mail to lie around without a marked reason for non delivery.  It was a very serious thing in my days (1987-2017) and probably even more so in the older Post Office Dept. as it was far more militaristic in operation and in personnel.

[James DiEugenio]

From your experience Richard, do you see any markings that reveal it stamped NSA?

Should not one be there since it was stamped with a postmark?

Edited August 18, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Richard Price]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

From your experience Richard, do you see any markings that reveal it stamped NSA?

Should not one be there since it was stamped with a postmark?

In my experience, such a package would have a postmark, which this one does even though it is pretty much illegible.  On this type of paper that is not uncommon.  On this package if it followed normal mail handling, I would have expected to see an initial date stamped or written on it (to start the clock for sending it to dead letter since there was no return address).  Then, if it was actually sorted to a carrier for delivery, I would expect his/her initials next to an endorsement either showing that it was attempted* or that there was no such number on the street shown/no such address within the delivery area (this would be done by a clerk).  If a clerk had a street name with similar number sequences, normally the clerk who deciphered where the package should be attempted would write the assumed correct street name on the package so anyone later handling it would know the corrected address.  The carrier receiving the package (already marked "postage due - with an amount due) would then attempt delivery and initial and date it.  If the carrier knew there was no deliverable address at the clerk's deciphered guess, he would put his initials and an endorsement in order to return it to the clerk for disposition.  This would be the end of handling at that office, unless the clerk handling the package was familiar with addresses in the local proximity.  If they were, they might go above and beyond to try to get the package delivered by writing the city name where they think that particular street is located on the package.  Normally that would mean putting a strikeout line through the city name it was being processed in (not making it illegible) and then writing the suspected city name below the original before sending it on to that city for attempted delivery.

Now after all that, no I do not see any of the markings on this package that would reflect it having been through any of this process.  Particularly, it should have been marked "Dead Letter" or something to that effect before being sent to that office/area.  In order to move the mail efficiently, you cannot leave it to the next person along to figure out what you already know.  You have to provide a road map for handling so that each person knows what has already happened to the package and avoid duplication of effort and needless reworking.

[Guest]

On 8/19/2022 at 3:47 AM, Richard Price said:

In my experience, such a package would have a postmark, which this one does even though it is pretty much illegible.  On this type of paper that is not uncommon.  On this package if it followed normal mail handling, I would have expected to see an initial date stamped or written on it (to start the clock for sending it to dead letter since there was no return address).  Then, if it was actually sorted to a carrier for delivery, I would expect his/her initials next to an endorsement either showing that it was attempted* or that there was no such number on the street shown/no such address within the delivery area (this would be done by a clerk).  If a clerk had a street name with similar number sequences, normally the clerk who deciphered where the package should be attempted would write the assumed correct street name on the package so anyone later handling it would know the corrected address.  The carrier receiving the package (already marked "postage due - with an amount due) would then attempt delivery and initial and date it.  If the carrier knew there was no deliverable address at the clerk's deciphered guess, he would put his initials and an endorsement in order to return it to the clerk for disposition.  This would be the end of handling at that office, unless the clerk handling the package was familiar with addresses in the local proximity.  If they were, they might go above and beyond to try to get the package delivered by writing the city name where they think that particular street is located on the package.  Normally that would mean putting a strikeout line through the city name it was being processed in (not making it illegible) and then writing the suspected city name below the original before sending it on to that city for attempted delivery.

Now after all that, no I do not see any of the markings on this package that would reflect it having been through any of this process.  Particularly, it should have been marked "Dead Letter" or something to that effect before being sent to that office/area.  In order to move the mail efficiently, you cannot leave it to the next person along to figure out what you already know.  You have to provide a road map for handling so that each person knows what has already happened to the package and avoid duplication of effort and needless reworking.

Made an enlargement of the best picture I could find (...), perhaps showing some more details

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pict.removed to save attachm. space

[James DiEugenio]

From Richard's explanation, I think the phony address is to conceal the Paine address underneath.

If the phony address had been the real address it would have had the markings Richard describes.

[Guest]

Investigations were about fingerprints, comparing paper and tape, but no results.   Nothing about trying to look under the label

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pictures removed to save space

[Richard Price]

10 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Made an enlargement of the best picture I could find (...), perhaps showing some more details

I also looked and found a clearer image on the internet and enlarged it on my computer screen.  One thing strikes me on the package.  There are many visual artifacts when doing this, but to me there appears to be some typewritten letters or words just above Irving Texas.  The only thing I can make out is "Pal....", but it appears to be around a 6 or7 letter word with another word or more preceding it.  The preceding word(s) are indecipherable and don't necessarily seem typed.

On another note, I do seem to be able to read the postmark next to the "received in bad condition".  It does appear to be IRVING, TEX.  This marking along with the date on the postmark is the only thing indicating handling within the post office.  The date, if legible would establish the count down to disposal, but there are no initials to designate who started the process.  This could happen if the clerk were slipshod in their work as only the date and condition would have been absolutely necessary to start the countdown to disposal.  There should still be additional markings for the prior handling, including a "postage due" stamp with an amount due.

[Guest]

Something is indeed visible like Pa., perhaps Palace, Palin...

no idea, please dont tell me it's Paine... 😃

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pictures removed to save space

[Ian Lloyd]

13 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Made an enlargement of the best picture I could find (...), perhaps showing some more details

I can't help thinking the way "Lee Oswald" is written on the envelope looks to me like it's been done by someone trying to copy Oswald's handwriting...it just looks too deliberate, neat and doesn't give me the impression that it's naturally spontaneous or "free-flowing"...doesn't quite have the same "lean" to the writing either...very precise on the line...

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Ian Lloyd said:

I can't help thinking the way "Lee Oswald" is written on the envelope looks to me like it's been done by someone trying to copy Oswald's handwriting...it just looks too deliberate, neat and doesn't give me the impression that it's naturally spontaneous or "free-flowing"...doesn't quite have the same "lean" to the writing either...very precise on the line...

You are correct on that I believe

[Guest]

There is also something strange about the postmark, looks like it was marked on a see-through tape, you can see the edges.

I always assumed the wavy line ran through (unless on a very uneven surface).

It's weird in a lot of ways...

Does somebody happen to know of a picture of the other side ?

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pict.removed to save attachm. space

[Guest]

Timing o/t postmark was said to be 5.30 AM

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pict.removed to save attachm. space

[James DiEugenio]

8 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

There is also something strange about the postmark, looks like it was marked on a see-through tape, you can see the edges.

I always assumed the wavy line ran through (unless on a very uneven surface).

It's weird in a lot of ways...

Does somebody happen to know of a picture of the other side ?

 

I think you are correct on this, it does look weird.  I have no idea what to make of it.

[Richard Price]

9 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

There is also something strange about the postmark, looks like it was marked on a see-through tape, you can see the edges.

Back in 1963, and even when I first started working with the post office (1987), we had a cancellation machine (a flyer, I think some called it) that would feed envelopes through the rotating cancellation mark.  This cancellation would look like your lower picture.  The information other than the city and state had replaceable numbers/letters which would allow the month/date/year and time (if that option was necessary) to be changed before running the letters through.  For larger packages, even when I started, there was no mechanized method for cancellation of packages or what we called "flats", large or oversized envelopes.  The cancellation of such items was done with a hand stamp and an ink pad.  This stamp would have been rectangular with the cancellation stripes to invalidate the stamp from later usage and would have had the characters within the smaller circle as changeable type, again to be changed reflecting the day and possibly the time of use.  Because the rubber cancellation stamp was set up (month/date/year) then stamped on an ink pad, then on the mail piece, it would many times leave an ink image of the outer edges which may be what you are seeing as being a tape edge.  These types of envelopes were notoriously difficult to get a good clear stamp applied.

[Guest]

More documentation on the fingerprint-search etc. is in the Armstrong file fot this package, including pictures of the bag in content :

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/oct.-3-1963-to-nov.-21-1963-nixie-section-post-office/703328?item=703329

I'm not sure about the For : -------------- "sticker", 2 photo's from the front are shown (one before and one after looking for prints )

In one it looks likes there is nog sticker/label.  For now impossible to conclude anything 

BUT is does begin with the story of how the package was actually found ! That's at least something !