The second bag in the post-office ?

[Guest]

Been busy doing other things, just noticed this picture still on my desktop.

Has there been an essay or more investig. on this bag ?

Just curious... (and cleaning my destop the same time...)

I know it was send before the JFKA and found later, but that's pretty much it...

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
Pictures removed to save space

[George Govus]

Intriguing, is it not? I recall little else. Not delivered due to insufficient postage.

Two-bit, would-be assassination plotters couldn't figure out the postage?

Just a bag inside, no message? "Take this bag to work with you tomorrow morning and leave it on the sixth floor. After twelve noon, be out of sight. Wait for a call near the pay phone downstairs."
 

[Gerry Down]

If I recall correctly, it was not a bag as such but just some brown wrapping paper.

[James DiEugenio]

Please you guys, does no one read my books?

Ever?

Second edition, Destiny Betrayed, pp. 204-07.

Pretty sure this is the longest and most detailed analysis of the issue.

[George Govus]

Like Jean Paul said, been busy doing other things. But I do have Destiny Betrayed in my Very Long Line Of Books I Haven't Read. I arranged them in terms of how tall they are. I'm reading the tallest books first. That puts yours, James, right in the middle.

But as penance, I read pp. 204-07. Shenanigans galore. Mystery address sticker with bogus address on package with no fingerprints "found" in Irving two weeks after the murder. I'm trying to sum up how hinky this was in one sentence, and I can't.

 

[Guest]

I only started reading JFK books some months ago, so very very very much a newbie. In discussions/topics I usually only enter when I had some previous knowledge that could be usefull (WWII/photograpy/financial/genealogy/...).

I have only read some 25 books for now, but on my list are some 40 more (incl. Destiny Betrayed).  I did spend quite some time reading stuff on the internet (e.g. I like Pat Speer writings, printed most of them).     

Most of my books are second hand anyway, so I'll buy them as they come along (I would buy them all at once, but my winning the lotery isn't scheduled till next year I believe), 

 

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, George Govus said:

Intriguing, is it not? I recall little else. Not delivered due to insufficient postage.

Two-bit, would-be assassination plotters couldn't figure out the postage?

Just a bag inside, no message? "Take this bag to work with you tomorrow morning and leave it on the sixth floor. After twelve noon, be out of sight. Wait for a call near the pay phone downstairs."
 

I think Oswald ordered a 36" paper bag 😃  

[Richard Price]

I will just add this, as additional information on the package.  I cannot say for sure what the Post Office Dept. policies and procedures were in 1963 as I worked for the USPS after 1978.  Most of the rules, regulations and policies remained the same or very similar, but some were updated or streamlined for more efficiency.  During the time I worked at USPS, a package found in the mail without any postage was returned to the sender marked, "RETURNED FOR POSTAGE".  If no return address was present, the package was marked "POSTAGE DUE" with the amount due written on the package.  These markings were applied by an "accountable clerk" and then given to the carrier.  All mail was sorted by clerks and then given to the carrier afterward.  Any item sent to the accountable clerk was then assigned to the carrier to make delivery.  This was done on a sign out sheet, thereby making the carrier "accountable" for either its delivery and collection of the fee(s) or its return and filing for later pick up by the customer to whom the carrier had left a notice giving the customer instructions as to how to obtain the referenced mail.  Postal clerks were trained to watch particularly for mail bearing no, or too little postage as this could be a big revenue loser.  This package exhibits none of the expected markings.  People have noted the "received in damaged condition" stamp.  This would be correct if the tear near the edge was present when the package was sorted.  However, it was common practice to reseal/repair a damaged package in order that the contents would make it through delivery.  The "damaged" stamp was to let the customer know that the package reached the post office already damaged.  Since there is no "repair" in evidence, this makes me think that the package was opened by Inspector Holmes and the "damage" stamp was used afterward to cover the fact that he opened it.  The fact that the other stamps are not present (RETURNED FOR POSTAGE/POSTAGE DUE) tells me that the package did not go through normal handling.  As I said, mail handling was very meticulous and structured.  Mail is sorted by clerks, any mail determined to be "accountable" was handled/marked and signed out to the responsible carrier.  At the end of the carrier's day, they had to be cleared of accountable items by either having a delivery receipt (and any money required for postage due) or return the actual item to be filed by clerks for later pick up by the customer.  A second notice was required to be made after 5 days (generally) so the customer knew the item was still available at the post office.  Once the normal retention period for the type of mail was reached, the item was either return to sender, or bearing no return address, sent to the dead letter office for final disposition.  In the dead letter branch the mail could then be opened and/or destroyed.

[Guest]

A friend just mailed me this link when he read my question :

http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/The_critics/Griffith/Suspicious_undelivered_package.html

[James DiEugenio]

I have always personally felt that this was one of the most important pieces of evidence, yet it was so much underplayed.

The only two people I know of who wrote about it at any length before me, were Meagher and Armstrong.

Since I decided it was badly overlooked I decided to write about it at length.

What is so puzzling is that the taped on address does not exist. Further, as Richard notes, it did not go through normal channels.  Why on earth did it take ten days to turn it over to the FBI? This was a few days after it was already being talked about in a diner across from the post office. In fact, it was being talked about at the diner the day after the assassination. To me this suggests the hand of Harry Holmes. A package with the alleged killer's name on it and you let it lay around the post office for over a week and a half?  As Richard says, this indicates that somehow the normal process was interfered with.

Edited August 17, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Another thing to note, not only does that address not exist, but why is the bag seemingly addressed to 2 cities.  Dallas and Irving?

And why does the original destination appear to be Irving?

[James DiEugenio]

From my book:

 

How does this all relate to Ruth Paine?  On November 20th, a package was sent from the Irving Post office to Lee Oswald at 2515 W Fifth Street, Irving Texas,  This is the address of Ruth and Michael Paine.  It was not delivered at that time since there was postage due on it.  On November 23rd, the Dallas Police searched Ruth's house for a second time and found the postage due notice with instruction to pick up and sign for the parcel. A deputy was dispatched to the Irving post office.  According to Officer Gus Rose's HSCA deposition, the deputy was told the parcel had been picked up.  As we have seen from the H. W. Reed affidavit, this was false.  And it began the cover up about this potentially crucial piece of evidence.  In February of 1964, in an interview with postal inspector Roy Armstrong, Ruth Paine tried to imply that this notice was for magazines, Which it was not.

IMO, the BS about it being picked up was likely from Holmes.

[Richard Price]

27 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

What is so puzzling is that the taped on address does not exist.

I have not studied the "package" other than to read various comments in threads on the forum.  If the address is taped onto the envelope, has this label ever been removed to reveal what is underneath?  Once it was documented in its original condition, I would think this would be done to see if another address or information of any kind were under it.  I definitely would have done this.

I will also note that a package such as this would have had a date written on it when the carrier attempted delivery (absolutely standard procedure).  This date establishes/starts the time clock for it being given a 2nd notice and establishes how long it will remain in the post office before being returned or in this case sent to the dead letter office.  Handling of mail within the post office ALWAYS has a predetermined time frame for disposition unless delivered on the 1st attempt.  As examples of this, when I worked at USPS, the following were the established protocols:  1)  Express Mail (overnight service) - If not delivered on the 1st attempt, 2nd attempt the next day, return to sender on the 5th day after arrival if not picked up.  2)  Certified mail/Registered mail - If not delivered on the 1st attempt, 2nd notice (not the mail piece) is delivered to the address, return to sender in 15 days (although earlier return can be requested through putting an endorsement on the piece prior to mailing).  Other than Express Mail (which did not exist in 1963, these procedures were always followed.  The actual mail piece remained filed in the post office after the 1s delivery attempt and was not removed other than to have a clerk write up the information on a notice which was delivered to the recipient.  The carrier writes the initial date on the mail and starts the clock, a clerk pulls the mail requiring a 2nd notice based on this initial date.  Once the clerk has written up the 2nd notice, they stamp/write the date of the 2nd notice and then the return date ON THE MAIL.  At that point the mail stays in the file (by name or address) with other mail awaiting the return date.  On the return date all the mail with the same return date are pulled by a clerk and it is then stamped "RETURN TO SENDER" and "unclaimed" is checked or if no stamp is available, written on the mail.

[James DiEugenio]

Richard, that is the question I asked in my book.

I could find no evidence that the FBI used any kind of chemical adhesive remover to take off the non existent address.

That is really kind of an amazing fact if its true. If anyone can prove me wrong, please do.

 

[Tom Gram]

2 hours ago, Richard Price said:

I have not studied the "package" other than to read various comments in threads on the forum.  If the address is taped onto the envelope, has this label ever been removed to reveal what is underneath?  Once it was documented in its original condition, I would think this would be done to see if another address or information of any kind were under it.  I definitely would have done this.

I will also note that a package such as this would have had a date written on it when the carrier attempted delivery (absolutely standard procedure).  This date establishes/starts the time clock for it being given a 2nd notice and establishes how long it will remain in the post office before being returned or in this case sent to the dead letter office.  Handling of mail within the post office ALWAYS has a predetermined time frame for disposition unless delivered on the 1st attempt.  As examples of this, when I worked at USPS, the following were the established protocols:  1)  Express Mail (overnight service) - If not delivered on the 1st attempt, 2nd attempt the next day, return to sender on the 5th day after arrival if not picked up.  2)  Certified mail/Registered mail - If not delivered on the 1st attempt, 2nd notice (not the mail piece) is delivered to the address, return to sender in 15 days (although earlier return can be requested through putting an endorsement on the piece prior to mailing).  Other than Express Mail (which did not exist in 1963, these procedures were always followed.  The actual mail piece remained filed in the post office after the 1s delivery attempt and was not removed other than to have a clerk write up the information on a notice which was delivered to the recipient.  The carrier writes the initial date on the mail and starts the clock, a clerk pulls the mail requiring a 2nd notice based on this initial date.  Once the clerk has written up the 2nd notice, they stamp/write the date of the 2nd notice and then the return date ON THE MAIL.  At that point the mail stays in the file (by name or address) with other mail awaiting the return date.  On the return date all the mail with the same return date are pulled by a clerk and it is then stamped "RETURN TO SENDER" and "unclaimed" is checked or if no stamp is available, written on the mail.

Since there is no Dallas postmark, and only a postmark from Irving, doesn't that indicate the package went straight to the Irving Post Office? I would think that the pasted-on label would supersede anything underneath, and the package in normal handling would have been received at the Post Office in Dallas - and either retained there for lack of a real Dallas address, or sent to Irving and stamped in Irving before being sent to the dead letter office. 

I guess my question is this: is the lack of Dallas postmark odd at all and/or evidence that the fake Dallas address label was pasted on after the package was already received in Irving?