Did the limo slow, or didn't it?

[Bill Brown]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Other shots from "silenced" weapons could easily be a possibility.

They had weapons like that at that time.

Bone fragment? Penetrating and lifting up and bending solid steel? No.

Bullet fragment?

Not from the JFK/Connelly pristine bullet.

And the entrance angle of the inner windshield frame indentation does not line up with JFK's exploding skull.

Whatever came in to cause the windshield frame indentation came in from an angle further right than anything hitting JFK's skull ... AND it came in higher than JFK's skull and not from an upward angle as it would have if it was from a bullet fragment from the head wound.

The Kellerman "flurry" statement debate is silly.

Slight differences from each take.

 

Where can I get a look at your work proving that whatever caused the dent "came from an angle further right than anything hitting JFK's skull" and that it "came in higher than JFK's skull and not from an upward angle as it would have if it was a bullet fragment from the head wound"?

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Chris Bristow]

9 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

You are probably aware of this, but Curry later told researchers that Chaney caught up with them about the time they reached the on-ramp to Stemmons. There's also the McIntyre photo where two motorcycles (one of them Chaney's) can be seen in the background coming through the underpass in hot pursuit. Some very illuminating discussions can be found in threads from 2010.

As I understand it Gary Mack claimed he talked to Curry and Chaney who independently said it happened on the on ramp. I don't believe this was ever confirmed before their deaths.
 The problem is the story has many too holes in it. Gary Mack said Curry stopped on the on ramp for two reason. First he was not sure if anyone was shot and Greer did not know the way to Parkland. If he needed to confirm anything he could have had Decker use he radio. Why would he bring the rush to Parkland to a full stop if JFK might have been shot?
 The testimony of Sorrels and Lawson who were in the back seat of Curry's car show they both told Curry to 'get to Parkland' right after the head shots and while still in the plaza. By the time they reached the west side of the underpass the limo had caught up to Curry and two agents in the limo yelled "Get to Parkland". That was later confirmed to be Hill and Greer. There were also two radio calls before they left the plaza. One from Kinney right after the head shot and one from Kellerman seconds later.  Kinney had started his siren as he made that radio call.  In the face of all that how could Curry not know they needed to rush to Parkland regardless of who was or was not hit?
 Officer Chaney would have likely heard the two radio calls and definitely heard Kinney's siren. He would have seen the motorcade rush out of the plaza. Hard to believe he would think he needs to inform Curry after that. but if he did ride after Curry he would not have known the limo would stop on the on ramp. He was about 800 ft behind them if that is Chaney in the McIntyre photo. So in Chaney's mind he would be chasing Curry way down the Stemmons freeway. The most important and time sensitive message of his career but instead of using the radio he starts a long chase.
  I don't think the on ramp story is credible.

[Derek Thibeault]

On 9/3/2022 at 12:58 AM, David Lifton said:

I've said this before, and its worth saying again: yes, the imo stopped.

I interviewed the Newmans in 1971 (or 1972(.

But the best evidence  can be found in the Friday evening edition of the Dallas Times Herald,  O ne or more of the cycle escort said it stopped; and as researcher Tyler Newcomb pointed out years ago, I believe you can actually see one of the DPD cyclists with his foot down and firmly on the pavement. I always thought that Vince Palamara's tabulation of "car stop" witnesses was excellent.  DSL

Who are the 4 cyclists? Did they testify before the WC? If not do we have their testimony? Have they passed away?

[Joe Bauer]

On 9/3/2022 at 12:21 PM, Bill Brown said:

 

Where can I get a look at your work proving that whatever caused the dent "came from an angle further right than anything hitting JFK's skull" and that it "came in higher than JFK's skull and not from an upward angle as it would have if it was a bullet fragment from the head wound"?

 

 

JFK's head shot occurred after Jackie pulled him close to her. JFK's upper body and head were then in the left center of the rear seat area.

Look at the indentation in the upper windshield frame above.

Look at it's entrance angle.

It clearly comes in from behind "the right side" window sun visor.

JFK and Jackie were both sitting behind the left side visor.

What ever made that three inch wide and 1 inch deep dent came in from an angle farther right of JFK's skull.

And notice also that the indentation location is much higher than JFK's slumping down head height. And yet, it doesn't have an upward slant entrance angle as it would if the projectile that caused it came from JFK's lower height skull 5 feet behind.

And notice also the raised metal around the indentation.

The frame was made of steel!

What ever hit the upper windshield frame with enough force to push up steel like that and that much of it had to have at least the force of a bullet.

Hitting that frame with a ball peen hammer as forcefully as anyone could may not have done as much damage.

This is all unscientific speculation on my part I admit.

All I can stand on is common sense when looking at this clear picture of the indentation itself.

Please, share your thoughts regarding the dent and your speculations as to it's form, provenance and angle of entrance.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Ege]

Joe, we do remember that there were witnesses on the knoll who believed at least one shot came from behind them.  Wouldn't 
"behind" necessarily include the colonnade?

From the photo, the angle of the dent appears that it could have originated therefrom.

Perhaps the photo interpreters/physicists/mathematicians here could help?

[Bill Brown]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

 

JFK's head shot occurred after Jackie pulled him close to her. JFK's upper body and head were then in the left center of the rear seat area.

Look at the indentation in the upper windshield frame above.

Look at it's entrance angle.

It clearly comes in from behind "the right side" window sun visor.

JFK and Jackie were both sitting behind the left side visor.

What ever made that three inch wide and 1 inch deep dent came in from an angle farther right of JFK's skull.

And notice also that the indentation location is much higher than JFK's slumping down head height. And yet, it doesn't have an upward slant entrance angle as it would if the projectile that caused it came from JFK's lower height skull 5 feet behind.

And notice also the raised metal around the indentation.

The frame was made of steel!

What ever hit the upper windshield frame with enough force to push up steel like that and that much of it had to have at least the force of a bullet.

Hitting that frame with a ball pin hammer as forcefully as anyone could may not have done as much damage.

This is all unscientific speculation on my part I admit.

All I can stand on is common sense when looking at this clear picture of the indentation itself.

Please, share your thoughts regarding the dent and your speculations as to it's form, provenance and angle of entrance.

 

If you can tell all of that just by looking at that photo, then you're a better man than I.

 

[Joe Bauer]

48 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

If you can tell all of that just by looking at that photo, then you're a better man than I.

 

Maybe I'm wrong!

Each person has to judge for themselves whether my observation propositions have any merit.

If you do not see what I see regards the physical aspects of the indentation I propose, would love to hear your own.

99.9 % of persons interested in the indentation will never be able to prove anything about it scientifically.

The hole and dent sure look to me like whatever created it came in from an angle behind the right side sun visor. Not the left.

If anything an entrance angle "center right."

And JFK was not behind the right side sun visor. Even center right.

His head and upper body were clearly farther left than that.

I just watched a slow motion, zoomed in version of the Zapruder film again over and over 15 times.

I wanted to see how far left Jackie Kennedy had pulled JFK toward here. His head was inches away from her face when the head shot occurred. And she herself did not move her body away from the far left portion of the back seat she was positioned in throughout the limo drive through Dealey Plaza.

Again, just my common sense observations here.

If you disagree regards my dent observation statements, please tell me why?

Edited September 5, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

3 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

If you can tell all of that just by looking at that photo, then you're a better man than I.

 

For some reason Vaughn Ferguson did not mention this defect in his memo. Chief Rowley said it happened in New York.  Willard Hess said it looked like it had been hit with. ball peen hammer.

 

[Pamela Brown]

Regarding the state of the limo by the time the FBI was allowed to see it---

The SS had control of the limo from the time of the assassination until early the following morning, when they allowed Robert Frazier and his team to see it.  They pored over it.  They even went through it on the C--130 on the flight from Love Field to AAFB. To my thinking, there is no reason they could not have sanitized it if they wanted to.  They could have moved evidence around, or taken evidence. 

 

[Joe Bauer]

You would think with so many people in an around the presidential limo for weeks before, and during and after 11,22,1963 that someone would have seen and reported the inner upper windshield frame damage. It is very noticeable.

The picture I posted clearly shows this.

I've done some research on the chain of command regards the limo Ferguson etal.

Someone said they thought it happened in a body shop on New York or New Jersey but a year or two before.

Do you really think JFK's primary travel limo personnel, maintenance, cleaning, shipping, unloading, driving, checking etc.

Would have never noticed that big ugly raised metal dent and/or let it go unreported or unfixed for that long?

Again, common sense.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

11 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

You would think with so many people in an around the presidential limo for weeks before, and during and after 11,22,1963 that someone would have seen and reported the inner upper windshield frame damage. It is very noticeable.

The picture I posted clearly shows this.

I've done some research on the chain of command regards the limo Ferguson etal.

Someone said they thought it happened in a body shop on New York or New Jersey but a year or two before.

Do you really think JFK's primary travel limo personnel, maintenance, cleaning, shipping, unloading, driving, checking etc.

Would have never noticed that big ugly raised metal dent and/or let it go unreported or unfixed for that long?

Again, common sense.

Good points. 

I don't have an explanation as to why Ferguson did not comment on this. Ferguson was not allowed to go on the Texas trip.  I think someone in the know realized he had a big mouth. He was told to stay in DC and prep the cars for the Army-Navy game the following weekend.

It must be said, though, that his memo was not, however, about the forensics of the limo, but about what he did to clean it out and try to get it ready for LBJ to use in the funeral procession.  At least, that is what he was told. Of course, that did not happen and the limo was not usable until the rear carpeting had been replaced. 

[Pamela Brown]

48 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:

Let's keep in mind also that the Ferguson memo was being suppressed by NARA in 1997.  They sent it to me by mistake.  When they found out about it, they refused to let anyone else have a copy of it. Anthony Marsh forced them to release it.  When they did release it they covered the date of the memo, to make it more difficult to place in a timeline. 

Fetzer and Weldon (on of his acolytes) immediately attacked the memo, claiming it was a 'forgery' of some sort.  It created a furor that lasted for quite some time.

Then, ironically, when I did a presentation on the Ferguson Memo at JFKLancer in 2002, all the audio equipment went belly-up.  We recorded the presentation twice, and they could not get anything that was usable, so only those present at the conference got to hear it.      

  

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Pamela Brown