Question About Harvey, Lee, and the "Two Marguerites"

[Sandy Larsen]

21 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

We're not the ones who believe in imaginary doppelgangers, botched exhumations and that the 9/11 attacks and the moon landings were faked.

 

Neither are we.

 

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

As I said earlier, any single piece of evidence will always have alternate explanations, some being quite ridiculous. (Speaking of ridiculous, you should have seen the explanation given by Greg Parker, on how it came to be that a dental record shows that Oswald had a broken prosthetic tooth (or teeth). This evidence, corroborated by other evidence, is inconvenient because the Oswald killed by Ruby had a full set of natural teeth, as revealed by his exhumation.)

As for Kudlaty, the alternative explanation I was once given was that he was Jack White's friend and that White had talked Kudlaty into lying for his other friend, John Armstrong.

 

Sandy,

   Weren't there other witnesses, besides Kudlaty, who verified Oswald's attendance at Stripling?

    If so, that would, apparently, debunk Greg Parker's alleged "debunking" of Kudlaty's account of the FBI confiscating Oswald's Stripling school records after JFK's assassination, wouldn't it?

[Sandy Larsen]

1 minute ago, W. Niederhut said:

Sandy,

   Weren't there other witnesses, besides Kudlaty, who verified Oswald's attendance at Stripling?

 

Well, just his brother Robert. (LOL) In fact, Robert said a number of times that Lee attended Striping, including in his WC testimony.

Also, gym teacher Mark Summers said that Oswald was in his gym class at Stripling.

Armstrong also found a few Stripling students who said they remember LHO. But those people could have confused Lee with Robert, who everybody agrees attended Stripling. So Robert's testimony and Kudlaty statement are far better pieces of evidence. Without them the others would sink.

 

1 minute ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

    If so, that would, apparently, debunk Greg Parker's alleged "debunking" of Kudlaty's account of the FBI confiscating Oswald's Stripling school records after JFK's assassination, wouldn't it?

 

Yup. (Whatever Greg's debunking consists of.)

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well, just his brother Robert. (LOL) In fact, Robert said a number of times that Lee attended Striping, including in his WC testimony.

Wow. You're really going to dredge this bit up again, after Mark Stevens thoroughly destroyed Jim Hargrove and other H&L theorists on the subject in this thread?

[Sandy Larsen]

14 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Wow. You're really going to dredge this bit up again, after Mark Stevens thoroughly destroyed Jim Hargrove and other H&L theorists on the subject in this thread?

 

Mark Stevens certainly did not destroy Hargrove. Though he actually did a lot of work and did argue his side without merely putting up  "it's been debunked" links. Gotta give him credit for that.

I think most people agreed with Mark that the students recalling LHO at Stripling weren't solid witnesses. That's pretty obvious. I'll have to click the link and refresh my memory on what his arguments against the Kudlaty and Robert evidences are.

 

[Mark Stevens]

38 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Mark Stevens certainly did not destroy Hargrove. Though he actually did a lot of work and did argue his side without merely putting up  "it's been debunked" links. Gotta give him credit for that.

I think most people agreed with Mark that the students recalling LHO at Stripling weren't substantial witnesses. That's pretty obvious. I'll have to click the link and refresh my memory on what his arguments against the Kudlaty and Robert evidences are.

 

I've been hesitant to get back into any of this but I thoroughly detest the "Harvey and Lee" "theory" and equate it as the flat earth theory of JFKA theories and "research."

I feel like I should say a few things though...

I 100% believe a conspiracy existed to assassinate JFK which may or may not have included Oswald as a willing participant.

I 100% believe Oswald's identity was used by others. I can't say whether this was because somehow his identity was available for them to use, or if it was being used in an active effort to frame him but it was most definitely used. Other cases are also mistaken identity and some are others are most likely bald faced lies.

On to Stripling...

The things attributed to Kudlaty are things he most definitely never stated. For instance, he never stated that the FBI removed records from the school pertaining to Oswald's attendance at Stripling. I do believe it is likely the FBI removed records, but as Kudlaty himself points out there is a high probability those records were records from Oswald's elementary years that were customarily sent to the next school when he graduated.

Quote

because it was the procedure that when a student moved from the elementary level to the junior high level…a copy of their records were forwarded to show that they had successfully completed the 6^th grade (1:52) (Armstrong, Frank Kudlaty Interview)

Instead, everyone is lead to believe that Kudlaty stated things he did not in fact state, when his own explanation of the records in possession by Stripling is a logical and likely one. Let's not cut ourselves on Occam's razor though.

Robert Oswald did attest to LHO attending Stripling. In one instance this attribution was made to him, likely in error (as explained below), by a local newspaper. When interviewed again by the Warren Commission he did again state that LHO attended Stripling, but his knowledge of these events are questionable. Robert joined the Marine Corp. in 1952 and had little contact with his family during those years. LHO and his family moved to NYC in 1952, the years he would have began attending at Stripling had he not moved to NYC. Robert is most likely speaking from an erroneous memory and basing his knowledge on information which is incomplete to him and for which he has no first hand knowledge of since he was not present for any of the events. I can't recall if Robert was asked about the families time in NYC, what that timeline was, or what he had to say regarding those events.

Quote

Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952?

Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please.

In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School then.

Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School? (Warren Commission)

Again, let's not cut ourselves on Occam's razor here. Is it more likely that Robert had first hand knowledge of events he was not present for and that he misspoke due to this? Or are the premises of "Harvey and Lee" the likely ones?

I will only mention Mark Summers since he is the one Sandy has mentioned, although all the "witnesses" have questionable "facts" as relevant to the "Harvey and Lee" saga. Summers places LHO at Stripling in 1952, 2 years before "Harvey and Lee" places him at the school. He also references teaching Robert when this couldn't be true if he began teaching in 1950. According to "Harvey and Lee" believers, this was because Summers was simply mistaken, yet this idea is laughable when applied to the statements of Robert Oswald. If he can be mistaken and believe he taught Oswald in 1952 when it was actually 1954 then Robert Oswald can equally be mistaken in his recollection of LHO attending Stripling, especially since he wasn't even present for the events in question and not once explains how he knows this to be true, considering he was not present. Mark Summers cannot be considered a reliable source for LHO considering Stripling.

Another thing I like to mention is that a former teacher at Stripling did an interview recalling famous students of Stripling, and who also researched LHO for The New York TImes, never made a mention of LHO attending Stripling. You'd think he would be a famous student who wouldn't just slip the teachers memory.

One last thing not related to Stripling but goes to the heart of all of the "Harvey and Lee" theories. "Harvey" is stated to be a Hungarian boy (based on 1 single phone call no less) and the "theory" has the need for a "native Russian speaker." The problem being that Hungarians do not speak Russian, 98% of the population speaks Hungarian. How does that narrative fit into the "Harvey and Lee" theory? Russian is spoken by somewhere around 1% of Hungarians. I guess they really lucked out and got the boy from that 1%? Let's not cut ourselves on Occam's Razor again...

I'll gladly debate anyone on the Stripling evidence. Lee Harvey Oswald, the one and only, never attended Stripling.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Mark Stevens

[Jonathan Cohen]

10 minutes ago, Mark Stevens said:

I'll gladly debate anyone on the Stripling evidence. Lee Harvey Oswald, the one and only, never attended Stripling.

Welcome back, Mark!

[Ron Ege]

As always with LHO - Joe Pesci, as David Ferrie, in JFK (1991):

"It's a mystery, wrapped in a riddle, inside an enigma."

[Joseph McBride]

That line of Pesci's was from Winston

Churchill, who said it about Russia/the USSR.

[Guest]

DELELTED wrong topic

Edited September 21, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Wow. You're really going to dredge this bit up again, after Mark Stevens thoroughly destroyed Jim Hargrove and other H&L theorists on the subject in this thread?

I would urge people who are interested in the Stripling subject to read this entire thread (above--at Cohen's link.)

Contrary to Jonathan Cohen's latest spin, Mark Stevens and his colleague W. Tracy Parnell did not "destroy" Jim Hargrove and David Josephs in this Stripling debate.  

Hargrove and Josephs won the debate, as they did in the Forum's original Harvey and Lee thread.

Nor did Stevens use Occam's Razor.  On the contrary, his convoluted counter-arguments are based on attempts to discredit the testimony of multiple Stripling witnesses.

Occam's Razor would entail believing that multiple concurring witnesses were most likely telling the truth.

Edited September 13, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Jonathan Cohen]

39 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

I would urge people who are interested in the Stripling subject to read this entire thread (above--at Cohen's link.)

Contrary to Jonathan Cohen's latest spin, Mark Stevens and his colleague W. Tracy Parnell did not "destroy" Jim Hargrove and David Josephs in this Stripling debate.  

Hargrove and Josephs won the debate, as they did in the Forum's original Harvey and Lee thread.

Nor did Stevens use Occam's Razor.  On the contrary, his convoluted counter-arguments are based on attempts to discredit the testimony of multiple Stripling witnesses.

Occam's Razor would entail believing that multiple concurring witnesses were most likely telling the truth.

You’ve got to be joking. Not only did Mark and Robert Charles Dunne wipe the floor with them, Mark’s research and analysis surfaced additional fatal flaws with the “Harvey and Lee” version of events (to the point that Hargrove even corrected the “Harvey and Lee” web site because of it). And there are no “multiple Stripling witnesses,” as Mark and Jeremy have pointed out. In fact there is no credible evidence whatsoever that Oswald attended the school.

[Mark Stevens]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

I would urge people who are interested in the Stripling subject to read this entire thread (above--at Cohen's link.)

Contrary to Jonathan Cohen's latest spin, Mark Stevens and his colleague W. Tracy Parnell did not "destroy" Jim Hargrove and David Josephs in this Stripling debate.  

Hargrove and Josephs won the debate, as they did in the Forum's original Harvey and Lee thread.

Nor did Stevens use Occam's Razor.  On the contrary, his convoluted counter-arguments are based on attempts to discredit the testimony of multiple Stripling witnesses.

Occam's Razor would entail believing that multiple concurring witnesses were most likely telling the truth.

Convoluted...by pointing out what the people actually stated and what they actually saw and explaining in great detail how those statements and observations do not mesh with the "Harvey and Lee" theory.

I'll offer you to go through them one by one and you can explain how their statements create a second Oswald and/or attendance at a school he didn't go to and I'll counter, or vice versa.

Since Summers has already been mentioned we can start with him...

Summers stated he taught LHO in 1952, two years after he began teaching. "Harvey and Lee" claims states that LHO attended Stripling in the school year 1954-1955. How does Summers statement support the "Harvey and Lee" theory?

Summers also states he taught Robert, although Robert started high school at Arlington Heights in 1949. He is obviously wrong about teaching Robert.

Also, I don't think you've actually read that thread, if so point out how they won and by what logic. At almost no point is anything I wrote about even mentioned or discussed. The closest Hargrove gets is by continually repeating "but it was in the newspaper 5 times!!!" Again, I state that repetition of 1 single interview does not make it correct. At no point did the Telegram conduct another interview with Robert where they were told LHO went to Stripling, much less 5 additional interviews. As a believer in 9/11 conspiracy theories, you must believe that since the newspaper said umpteen times that OBL was responsible then it's obviously true, because well it was in the newspaper umpteen times. If you countered that with logic and evidence and I said...nu uh...it was in the newspaper by golly...would you believe I bested you? I certainly doubt it. That is what Hargrove did.

So again I ask, how does Summers statements support the "Harvey and Lee" theory when he is a) obviously wrong about teaching Robert, and b) his statements contradict the timeline of "Harvey and Lee?" 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 9/13/2022 at 3:55 PM, Mark Stevens said:

The things attributed to Kudlaty are things he most definitely never stated. For instance, he never stated that the FBI removed records from the school pertaining to Oswald's attendance at Stripling. I do believe it is likely the FBI removed records, but as Kudlaty himself points out there is a high probability those records were records from Oswald's elementary years that were customarily sent to the next school when he graduated.

 

This is nonsense.

First let me explain the thing about Oswald's elementary school records that has Mark confused:

Apparently, the night before the Kudlaty interview, the two interviewers discussed with Kudlaty how records were generally passed from elementary school to junior high school, and from one junior high school to another.

When a student completes elementary school, a copy of the records would be sent to the junior high school. If the student then switched from that junior high to another, a copy of the records -- including the elementary records -- would be sent from that junior high to the new one.

Kudlaty apparently knew that there were no prior junior high school records in Oswalds Stripling file. Yet he thought or assumed that there WERE elementary school records in the file, maybe because that was typically the case with any junior high school file. But he wasn't sure because he didn't know how the elementary records would get there if not passed from a prior junior high school. If you read the transcript below you will see Kudlaty wondering how the elementary school records (if any) got into Oswald's file.

In the interview, one of the interviewers mentioned the discussion they had had the night before. This triggered Kudlaty into wondering again, out loud, how there could be elementary records but no prior junior high records in Oswald's file. The interviewer then brought Kudlaty back from his tangent.

Here's a transcript of the relevant part of the interview, Kudlaty's words only:

I went to the records file, got his records out. I did open them, I did look at them in kind of a cursory way. And the only thing I can recall is that the records for Stripling were [in that?] he didn't attend there for a full year. I put them back in the brown envelope.... The records that I turned over to the FBI may have contained the elementary school records that you should have in your files....

[A comment is made by an interviewer regarding their previous-nights discussion of how school records are transferred from one school to another.] ... As I have said last night, how did all the records in the elementary school show up and there are none from the junior high school? That would be an interesting path to go down to see how those records got into the file -- and where they came from? Did someone go to -- went to the elementary school and get them?...

To the best of my recollection, his records were incomplete and that they did not show a full year of attendance.... I believe that he had grades for one six-week period. That's the best I can remember. But I wouldn't want to swear to that.... [Kudlaty explains why he believes it was six weeks.] ... He received grades for the first six weeks....

Kudlaty definitely said that he gave LHO's records to the FBI and that LHO attended Stripling for part of a year. He didn't say that the records might have been just elementary records. And in fact, he says that the only explanation for Stripling having those records is because Oswald attended classes there.

Here's the link to the Kudlaty interview.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

...Mark’s research and analysis surfaced additional fatal flaws with the “Harvey and Lee” version of events (to the point that Hargrove even corrected the “Harvey and Lee” web site because of it).

 

That's what I thought. What was it that he found? (I think it was just one flaw.)