What about Marina and a "green card"?

[Mark Knight]

When Marina came to the US with Lee Oswald in 1962, she was not a US citizen. As I understand the citizenship procedure, she would have been issued a "green card" [or similar document] and could ONLY apply for citizenship after 3 years' residence in the US.

A couple of questions come to mind here.

1.) As a noncitizen, wouldn't she have been required to report EVERY address change to the Immigration Service?

2.) Once Lee Oswald was dead, she was simply a Soviet citizen in the US, and no longer the wife of an American citizen. Would that have affected her residency status with the Immigration Service? Would that have led to SS, FBI, and DPD investigators to "suggest" [threaten] that deportation was an option if Marina failed to cooperate, i.e., tell them what they wanted to hear?

In 1963, Miranda rights were 3 years away. And old "cop shows" illustrate how cops would bend the rules to pressure potential witnesses/defendants to tell them what they wanted to hear [witness the "confession" that the DPD tried to force on Wes Frazier].

So if Marina had NOT informed Immigration about changes of address, that might have provided cops with leverage, real or imagined, to have her tell them the story they wanted to hear.

Anyone have any information regarding Marina and the Immigration officials? I don't recall previously seeing any investigation into this area.

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Mark Knight said:

When Marina came to the US with Lee Oswald in 1962, she was not a US citizen. As I understand the citizenship procedure, she would have been issued a "green card" [or similar document] and could ONLY apply for citizenship after 3 years' residence in the US.

A couple of questions come to mind here.

1.) As a noncitizen, wouldn't she have been required to report EVERY address change to the Immigration Service?

2.) Once Lee Oswald was dead, she was simply a Soviet citizen in the US, and no longer the wife of an American citizen. Would that have affected her residency status with the Immigration Service? Would that have led to SS, FBI, and DPD investigators to "suggest" [threaten] that deportation was an option if Marina failed to cooperate, i.e., tell them what they wanted to hear?

In 1963, Miranda rights were 3 years away. And old "cop shows" illustrate how cops would bend the rules to pressure potential witnesses/defendants to tell them what they wanted to hear [witness the "confession" that the DPD tried to force on Wes Frazier].

So if Marina had NOT informed Immigration about changes of address, that might have provided cops with leverage, real or imagined, to have her tell them the story they wanted to hear.

Anyone have any information regarding Marina and the Immigration officials? I don't recall previously seeing any investigation into this area.

One thing that’s interesting is the CIA dispatched a covert operative under DIA cover to New Orleans after the assassination allegedly to obtain Marina’s INS records, but I suspect there was a lot more to it than that - and that Oswald’s files were the real target. 

Also, if I recall, Hosty found out about 602 Elsbeth St. from Marina’s INS file, so she reported that address at least. She appears to have not reported the post office box though, even though she was (“officially” at least) receiving all her mail there, since Hosty didn’t find out about it. I’m not sure about Neely St. or anything in New Orleans.

I’ll look around tomorrow and see what I have on this. I remember seeing some pretty interesting stuff. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

When Marina came to the US with Lee Oswald in 1962, she was not a US citizen. As I understand the citizenship procedure, she would have been issued a "green card" [or similar document] and could ONLY apply for citizenship after 3 years' residence in the US.

A couple of questions come to mind here.

1.) As a noncitizen, wouldn't she have been required to report EVERY address change to the Immigration Service?

2.) Once Lee Oswald was dead, she was simply a Soviet citizen in the US, and no longer the wife of an American citizen. Would that have affected her residency status with the Immigration Service? Would that have led to SS, FBI, and DPD investigators to "suggest" [threaten] that deportation was an option if Marina failed to cooperate, i.e., tell them what they wanted to hear?

In 1963, Miranda rights were 3 years away. And old "cop shows" illustrate how cops would bend the rules to pressure potential witnesses/defendants to tell them what they wanted to hear [witness the "confession" that the DPD tried to force on Wes Frazier].

So if Marina had NOT informed Immigration about changes of address, that might have provided cops with leverage, real or imagined, to have her tell them the story they wanted to hear.

Anyone have any information regarding Marina and the Immigration officials? I don't recall previously seeing any investigation into this area.

Marina was the mother of a US citizen - Rachel Oswald. So I'd imagine that gave her some leverage back that she could stay in the US. It should also be noted that Marina was open to the idea of her and Lee returning to the USSR in 1963. She even wrote in a letter to the USSR embassy how foolish they had been to leave the USSR.

After the assassination the Russians most likely didn't want her back. And so she was stuck in the US.

[Paul Cummings]

I believe because Marina's second child was born here in the U.S. that likely allowed her to stay while obtaining citizenship.

[Joe Bauer]

10 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Marina was the mother of a US citizen - Rachel Oswald. So I'd imagine that gave her some leverage back that she could stay in the US. It should also be noted that Marina was open to the idea of her and Lee returning to the USSR in 1963. She even wrote in a letter to the USSR embassy how foolish they had been to leave the USSR.

After the assassination the Russians most likely didn't want her back. And so she was stuck in the US.

Interesting take.

[Paul Brancato]

Marina may have had some legal rights based on having a child born here, but I doubt she would have felt she was on firm ground legally. So I think the surmise that she was prone to manipulation by authorities who had her in custody is well grounded. 

[Joe Bauer]

Accidental double post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

So much has been written about Marina but is there any one book that focuses exclusively on Marina alone besides her own tome?

I've read much about her from her childhood all the way to her presently.

Scattered reading but to this day she remains an enigma in many ways.

An incomplete puzzle picture with purposely hidden pieces since the first time I saw her in her nationally shown "Marina, what do you do all day?" televised interview.

Like most American men ( even though I was just a boy ) I was mesmerized and taken with her in that interview. Mostly with her natural born beauty.

She didn't say much. She seemed still in shock, scared, vulnerable after everything she had been through. And remember, she was only 23!

Marina's Warren Commission and later commission hearing testimony always leaves me in a twist. It is so contradictory at times. And I often sensed that Marina held back so much.

She was such a huge part of the Lee Harvey Oswald story in the most intimate way.

The most important witness by far.

She knew so much. 

Her life before and then with Lee in Russia is just one fascinating part of the entire story.

Marina certainly held back much from everyone regards the full story of her and Lee.

For reasons that make perfect sense. And some reasons that raise suspicion.

Remember that before the police came for her at Ruth Paine's she took and hid and maybe even burned at least one piece of incrimination evidence regards Lee. Didn't she even hide something in her shoe?

Marina knew how to keep secrets. Heck, she was born and raised in Russia!

From my general reading ( admittedly limited ) about the Russian people and their history during and after Stalin and the KGB it was normal to keep your mouth shut about anything beyond simple everyday life conversation. 

Marina wrote a love letter to one of her former boyfriends in Russia who she still pined for after living with Lee in America and finding herself unhappy with him.

Lee found the letter!

A secret revealed!

Other less than innocent, submissive and lovingly obedient wife aspects to Marina that revealed themselves to researchers were personality traits such as willfulness, stubbornness, a tendency to argue or even nag. Some have said she had a touch of laziness. Staying in bed later than some mothers. 

According to Jeanne De Mohrenschildts who got close to Marina for awhile, She ) Jeanne De M ) was appalled at how openly Marina talked about Lee in incredibly derogatory ways. "Look at that idiot" and other very personal things that JDM felt a wife should never share to others outside of the sacred vow rules of marriage.

I believe Marina also made fun of Lee's seeming more interested in being left alone to read his precious books versus jumping in bed with her. 

I believe Marina was very sexually inclined and desirous from her time before meeting up with Lee. She had many boyfriends or at least pursuers during that time of her youth.

But to share these very personal and private unhappy and unfulfilled marriage revealing things about her and Lee with Jeanne DeM and in a way that made fun of him ... well, it's just another part of the entire Marina picture puzzle.

Lee did have more sway over Marina than not though in critical points of their marriage time before Marina started to break away.

She consented to going back to Russia at some point. She did what Lee told her to do during his Walker shooting escapade. She obeyed Lee regarding what to say and not to say when she was questioned by the FBI.

If the JFK event never happened Marina and Lee's marriage would have failed completely anyway. It was already 80% finished by 11,22,1963 imo.

Marina was realizing she needed someone much different than Lee to be fulfilled in all the most important ways. Let alone his crazy violent activities and mind set.

A normal young woman wife would have been terrified after Lee's General Walker shooting. And feeling she had to get away to protect herself and her baby's welfare from such a dangerous violent risk taking person.

Again, I have to remind myself that Marina went through all this craziness before she was even 24 years old!

That fact does give me some pause in considering she was some type of trained, instructed and controlled Russian covert agent during all that time. More sophisticated than not. 

To me, what tops off the incredibly interesting and even fascinating Marina story with all it's unanswered questions and purposely hidden secrets intrigue was the coincidental reality of her mesmerizing young woman physical beauty.

I could not take my eyes off of her during her first nationally televised interview.

You could tell even on black and white screen TV that her large soft eyes were radiant in a color such as blue.

Marina's beauty adds so much interest to the entire story imo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Karl Hilliard]

19 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

 

1.) As a noncitizen, wouldn't she have been required to report EVERY address change to the Immigration Service?

2.) Once Lee Oswald was dead, she was simply a Soviet citizen in the US, and no longer the wife of an American citizen. Would that have affected her residency status with the Immigration Service? Would that have led to SS, FBI, and DPD investigators to "suggest" [threaten] that deportation was an option if Marina failed to cooperate, i.e., tell them what they wanted to hear?

In 1963, Miranda rights were 3 years away. And old "cop shows" illustrate how cops would bend the rules to pressure potential witnesses/defendants to tell them what they wanted to hear [witness the "confession" that the DPD tried to force on Wes Frazier].

So if Marina had NOT informed Immigration about changes of address, that might have provided cops with leverage, real or imagined, to have her tell them the story they wanted to hear.

Anyone have any information regarding Marina and the Immigration officials? I don't recall previously seeing any investigation into this area.

 

Quote

As a noncitizen, wouldn't she have been required to report EVERY address change to the Immigration Service?

--- Not necessarily. As a foreign national...the initial resident card is temporary and expires in two years and a petition would have be filed for a permanent residence [renewed every 10 yrs] During that time..an application can [and should be] be made for naturalization as a citizen. By birth...the younger daughter required no such resident card. New addresses would be stated on such documents.

Did the FEDS grill Marina into "cooperating"? Yeah. Even Robert Oswald so testified.  

 

[Tony Rose]

On 9/11/2022 at 12:19 AM, Gerry Down said:

Marina was the mother of a US citizen - Rachel Oswald.

 

I think June was a US citizen at birth, as well.  Lee was a US citizen who had spent 10 years prior to June's birth in the US, at least 5 of which were after the age of 14.

[Mark Knight]

38 minutes ago, Tony Rose said:

I think June was a US citizen at birth, as well.  Lee was a US citizen who had spent 10 years prior to June's birth in the US, at least 5 of which were after the age of 14.

You are correct. June had birthright citizenship because she was the daughter of a citizen who met the criteria you cited.