Oswald's alibi

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

A homicide detective for only three years. Rose would later gain renown as a skilled interrogator. Blocking out the hubbub, he turned his attention to the hostile suspect.

“I don’t own a gun,” the man said. “I didn’t have that gun. They planted that on me when they arrested me.”

https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/1998/november/jfk-special-report-the-cop-and-the-killer/

An interesting quote from Rose.

[Tony Krome]

58 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

An interesting quote from Rose.

There was at least one honest cop in the theatre, well sort of, his statement reads that he saw Oswald's and McDonald's hands 'on" the gun, but couldn't say for sure which way the gun was pointed. If Oswald had his hand on the grip and finger on the trigger, it would be obvious to that cop which way the gun was pointed, right?

 

You'd think if a suspected "cop killer" pulled a gun on officers, the suspect would have his body weight doubled within 15 seconds. However, if a gun was being forced into Oswald's hands, the surrounding officers obviously held fire.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Tony Krome

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I don't think that John Newman believes that Oswald met with Kostikov. Only that evidence was planted, suggesting that he did. Which is all that would be necessary.

The CIA was building the Oswald legend for U.S. government consumption, not for Russia's (or Cuba's) consumption. In fact, if the CIA actually had Oswald meet with Kostikov, that would tip off the Russians that the CIA was playing some game.

(Does Newman still believe that Oswald even went to Mexico City?)

 

SL--

Well I will have to check back on Newman, and read his latest book.

Dan Hardway, the HSCA researcher, believed LHO had been to MC. 

My own guess is that the CIA even somehow and covertly but intentionally "leaked" to the KGB that a CIA asset would try to visit the Soviet embassy. 

I can't understand how LHO knocked on the Soviet embassy on a Saturday, and they (Kostokov and comrades)  delayed a volleyball game to talk to LHO. My guess is the KGB had been "tipped" that LHO was a CIA asset and so met with him to see what could be gleaned. 

Just IMHO....

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

A homicide detective for only three years. Rose would later gain renown as a skilled interrogator. Blocking out the hubbub, he turned his attention to the hostile suspect.

“I don’t own a gun,” the man said. “I didn’t have that gun. They planted that on me when they arrested me.”

https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/1998/november/jfk-special-report-the-cop-and-the-killer/

TK:

Well that could be. 

[Jonathan Cohen]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to Oswald being an agent for the CIA is overwhelming.

Not only is it NOT overwhelming, it's almost entirely based on the same kind of (to put it mildly) strained logic that fuels idiotic theories such as "Harvey & Lee." Show me ONE piece of actual documentary evidence -- not circumstantial evidence -- that indicates Oswald had any professional association with the CIA or that he was somehow "placed" by the CIA at the Texas School Book Depository? And don't bother with nonsense such as James Wilcott's HSCA testimony...

[Ron Ege]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Not only is it NOT overwhelming, it's almost entirely based on the same kind of (to put it mildly) strained logic that fuels idiotic theories such as "Harvey & Lee." Show me ONE piece of actual documentary evidence -- not circumstantial evidence -- that indicates Oswald had any professional association with the CIA or that he was somehow "placed" by the CIA at the Texas School Book Depository? And don't bother with nonsense such as James Wilcott's HSCA testimony...

Johnathan,

Forgetting for a moment any incontrovertible evidence "Harvey and Lee" has any validity and/or that LHO had any CIA association, do you believe it was possible for him to have been, perhaps, a low-level ONI operative and/or an FBi informant?

What I've always found most curious was that LHO allegedly defected, publicly stating that he was going to divulge classified information garnered during his enlistment.

Other than his discharge being downgraded, Oswald appeared to have suffered no consequences, upon his return to the states - other than eventually being "overseen" by the FBI.

'Twould seem that, in the least, LHO would've immediately undergone a lengthy interrogation by some government agency - to put to rest any concerns regarding harm to national security.  Maybe that was done, secretly?

And is it not a matter of record that after his New Orleans Street scuffle, he requested to speak to a specific FBI agent?  Also, curious that.

Just thinking out loud; your observations always welcome.

[Jonathan Cohen]

10 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

Johnathan,

Forgetting for a moment any incontrovertible evidence "Harvey and Lee" has any validity and/or that LHO had any CIA association, do you believe it was possible for him to have been, perhaps, a low-level ONI operative and/or an FBi informant?

What I've always found most curious was that LHO allegedly defected, publicly stating that he was going to divulge classified information garnered during his enlistment.

Other than his discharge being downgraded, Oswald appeared to have suffered no consequences, upon his return to the states - other than eventually being "overseen" by the FBI.

'Twould seem that, in the least, LHO would've immediately undergone a lengthy interrogation by some government agency - to put to rest any concerns regarding harm to national security.  Maybe that was done, secretly?

And is it not a matter of record that after his New Orleans Street scuffle, he requested to speak to a specific FBI agent?  Also, curious that.

Roger, thanks for asking. In this case, ANYTHING is possible, although I'm dubious Oswald worked for any US intelligence agencies in an overt way (him being set up or used without his knowledge is another matter, and to me more likely). Re: suffering no consequences, I think you can look at it a few ways. Was he ever actually intending to divulge secrets, or did he just blurt that out as a threat and/or in hopes it would speed up the process of him being allowed to remain in Russia? Did the US government really want to get into a protracted disciplinary/legal mess with him upon his return to the country? I find no conspiratorial significance in his asking to speak to an FBI agent after the New Orleans scuffle. Ultimately, Oswald had a very difficult time respecting authority, following orders or being part of a team. This being the case, why would US intelligence want anything to do with him?

 

[Benjamin Cole]

59 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Roger, thanks for asking. In this case, ANYTHING is possible, although I'm dubious Oswald worked for any US intelligence agencies in an overt way (him being set up or used without his knowledge is another matter, and to me more likely). Re: suffering no consequences, I think you can look at it a few ways. Was he ever actually intending to divulge secrets, or did he just blurt that out as a threat and/or in hopes it would speed up the process of him being allowed to remain in Russia? Did the US government really want to get into a protracted disciplinary/legal mess with him upon his return to the country? I find no conspiratorial significance in his asking to speak to an FBI agent after the New Orleans scuffle. Ultimately, Oswald had a very difficult time respecting authority, following orders or being part of a team. This being the case, why would US intelligence want anything to do with him?

 

Tennant Bagley told researcher Malcom Blunt that LHO went to Russia as a "witting asset." 

on Bagley:

https://spartacus-educational.com/Tennant_Bagley.htm

John Newman has pointed out the unusual CIA file system created around LHO, which is not the sort of file system one would have on a suspected bad guy or defector.  Newman's books strongly suggest LHO as a CIA asset. 

My add on: In the 1960s there were literally thousands of CIA assets (not officers, aka "agents") on US soil, such as Cuban exiles, and US military guys on loan, veterans or mercenaries. 

IMHO, LHO was one of those thousands of assets. 

The scenario: Thousands of CIA assets in the US, and large fraction of them feeling betrayed by JFK on the Bay of Pigs, and for failing to dislodge Castro.  Large fractions of the angry thousands of CIA assets were trained in black ops and weaponry. 

The Miami station a hotbed of CIA hotshots, rogues. 

I don't know how old you are. But if you think emotions run high now in the US, the Cold War was way worse. Lots of otherwise sane people suggesting a first strike, nuclear, on the Soviet Union. 

I personally participated in air raid drills through elementary school years, in which we practiced responses to a nuke bomb (Altadena CA). 

Just IMHO. LHO was a CIA asset. Perhaps an infiltrator or provocateur. 

 

 

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

provocateur

Thats what Garrison described him as. Based on some of his two-faced antics in NO, I'd say he's close to the mark.

[Jonathan Cohen]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Just IMHO. LHO was a CIA asset. Perhaps an infiltrator or provocateur. 

Well then he didn't do a very good job, did he? Can you point out a single thing he did while in Russia that evinces him being either infiltrator or provocateur? Was he such an expert "asset" that the KGB was clueless for two years as to his true intentions, despite keeping him under round-the-clock surveillance?

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Thats what Garrison described him as. Based on some of his two-faced antics in NO, I'd say he's close to the mark.

One can be a provocateur without being controlled by the CIA. Oswald had quite an imagination and an outsized opinion of his own capabilities compared to how everybody else saw him. Is it so outlandish to assume he was only a provocateur of his own creation?

[Sandy Larsen]

23 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

On 10/7/2022 at 10:49 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

The amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to Oswald being an agent for the CIA is overwhelming.

Not only is it NOT overwhelming, ...

 

No Jonathan, the circumstantial evidence IS overwhelming. Even your anti-H&L compadre Jeremy Bojczuk agrees with that statement. On his website (on this page) he writes:

"There is no categorical proof that Lee Oswald was working for one or another agency of the US government, either directly or through a proxy, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming." [My emphasis.]

(Jeremy believes that Oswald was probably working for multiple agencies.)

 

23 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Show me ONE piece of actual documentary evidence ... that indicates Oswald had any professional association with the CIA ...

 

I can't even show you documentary evidence that I worked for the CIA! Which I did years ago.

What do you expect me to produce? Oswald's CIA ID card?

 

23 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

And don't bother with nonsense such as James Wilcott's HSCA testimony.

 

You don't want  to be bothered with evidence that show's you're wrong, eh? Well, that's understandable.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Following is Jim Hargrove's list of evidence indicating that Oswald was a CIA agent. (Note that #2 may have been debunked by John Newman.) My favorite is #20 since it is a virtual confession by CIA's Ann Egerter that Oswald was a CIA employee being investigated by the CIA.

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott testified that he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”  Contemporaneous HSCA notes indicate Wilcott told staffers, but wasn't allowed to say in Executive session, that the cryptonym for the CIA's "Oswald Project" was RX-ZIM.
2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.
3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.
4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.
5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 
6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA "contact" who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.
7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and probably monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.
8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.
9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.
10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.
11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.
12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.
13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.
14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.
15. CIA's Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, and he said that the CIA and the FBI ignored his warnings.
16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.
17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter BS….
18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!
19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”
20. CIA's Ann Egerter, who worked for J.J. Angleton's Counterintelligence Special Interest Group (CI/SIG), opened a "201" file on Oswald on December 9, 1960.  Egerter testified to the HSCA: "We were charged with the investigation of Agency personnel....”  When asked if the purpose was to "investigate Agency employees," she answered, "That is correct."  When asked, "Would there be any other reason for opening up a file?" she answered, "No, I can't think of one."

 

[Sandy Larsen]

9 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Following is Jim Hargrove's list of evidence indicating that Oswald was a CIA agent. (Note that #2 may have been debunked by John Newman.) My favorite is #20 since it is a virtual confession by CIA's Ann Egerter that Oswald was a CIA employee being investigated by the CIA.

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott testified that he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”  Contemporaneous HSCA notes indicate Wilcott told staffers, but wasn't allowed to say in Executive session, that the cryptonym for the CIA's "Oswald Project" was RX-ZIM.
2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.
3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.
4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.
5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 
6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA "contact" who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.
7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and probably monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.
8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.
9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.
10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.
11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.
12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.
13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.
14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.
15. CIA's Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, and he said that the CIA and the FBI ignored his warnings.
16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.
17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter BS….
18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!
19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”
20. CIA's Ann Egerter, who worked for J.J. Angleton's Counterintelligence Special Interest Group (CI/SIG), opened a "201" file on Oswald on December 9, 1960.  Egerter testified to the HSCA: "We were charged with the investigation of Agency personnel....”  When asked if the purpose was to "investigate Agency employees," she answered, "That is correct."  When asked, "Would there be any other reason for opening up a file?" she answered, "No, I can't think of one."

 

 

I would add to Jim's list the fact that Oswald hid his Russian Language abilities from the Russians. That certainly points to his being a CIA agent. Most people would want to show off their second-language skills.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Just IMHO. LHO was a CIA asset. Perhaps an infiltrator or provocateur. 

Well then he didn't do a very good job, did he? Can you point out a single thing he did while in Russia that evinces him being either infiltrator or provocateur?

 

I can't think of a single thing Oswald did in the Soviet Union indicating he was an infiltrator or provocateur. But he did do one thing indicating he was a spy. And that is taking copious notes and writing his “Lives of Russian Workers” document.

What most people don't seem to know is that spying is often quite mundane. That was especially true in the Soviet Union given that there was no freedom to reside or even travel for foreigners. It was a challenge to gather information on even the simplest things in Soviet life. And that's what Oswald did.