POLICE CAR IN THE ALLEY? NOPE.

[Greg Doudna]

On 10/11/2022 at 11:18 PM, Bill Brown said:

I have spoken to Mike Brownlow at least a half dozen times in person.  I know for a fact that he is full of lies and "tall-tales".  I can give examples if you really do insist.  He'll say anything to make a buck or two.  It is my opinion that Doris Holan never said any of this to him or Livingstone or Pulte.  I also do not believe that Sam Guinyard ever told Brownlow (supposedly in 1970, if I recall correctly) that he (Guinyard) saw a police car in the alley.

5 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Neither Brownlow nor Pulte are credible.  Having said that, their claim is that a police car was seen in the DRIVEWAY between the houses of 404 E. 10th and 410 E. 10th.  You guys are then, for some unknown reason, switching DRIVEWAY to ALLEY.  Nope.

Bill, in their tape starting at 0:05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV6O3j0Llrg), Pulte says this:

Brownlow: ... Mrs. Holan. Would you care to comment on how you met her?

Pulte: Well Mike, you--I went with you one day to the nursing home where she was living, which was the one off Costa Casta View, the Jewish home, and she confirmed what she had told you before, regarding what she had seen. She had witnessed events pertaining to the Tippit murder just shortly after the murder. She didn't see the murder herself, but probably 10 seconds later she did go to her window and saw what was happening.

It is not "some unknown reason" for switching driveway to alley. It is because, as Myers has shown, the driveway on 10th is impossible as the meaning. But from where we now know Mrs. Holan was living (thanks to Myers 2020), her description of running to the window would have her see directly across the street into the alley. Whatever Mrs. Holan said is being retold by Brownlow and Pulte, and so there are two choices here: a garbling or misunderstanding of what Mrs. Holan said (or meant)--well explained if Brownlow and Pulte mistakenly believed that Mrs. Holan was living on 10th at the time.

Or, that there was a conspiracy between Pulte and Brownlow to literally fabricate the entire story out of thin air, both of them, witting conspiracy to lie the entire story. As you say, "It is my opinion that Doris Holan never said any of this to him or Livingstone or Pulte."

Could you explain why you think your conspiracy theory (that Pulte and Brownlow conspired in advance to fabricate the entire thing in public) is preferable to a non-conspiracy, mundane, routine alternative in which Pulte and Brownlow distorted what Mrs,. Holan said in their retelling?

Do you have any basis for supposing Pulte was involved in conspiracies to outright witting intentionally fabricate in any other instances?

Doris Holan was living in a perfect situation to see "Oswald" (the gunman) run right by her front window and look at her, as she said according to Brownlow supported by Pulte. She was living in a perfect situation to see a vehicle back up in a paved roadway that was not the street, called by Brownlow a "driveway", but from Mrs. Holan's window that would be the "alley".

Since you don't regard Brownlow as credible, you don't really know that Mrs. Holan didn't say "alley" (or called the alley a "driveway") do you? Do you see that your own impeachment of Brownlow's credibility argues against your illusory certainty that Mrs. Holan did not speak of seeing activity in the alley out her front window.

Why go for an unlikely conspiracy theory in this case when a simpler non-conspiratorial, mundane explanation is available and sensible, running something like this in which:

• Doris Holan was home on Nov 22 at ca. 1:15 pm
• Doris Holan heard the shots
• Doris Holan ran to her front window to see what happened
• Doris Holan saw whatever she saw. (She would be expected to have seen the gunman run by, right under her window, which according to Brownlow she did say she saw happen those years later.)
• Doris Holan then got dressed properly and walked out her door and then around the corner on 10th to the Tippit cruiser location.
• Doris Holan years later told Brownlow and Pulte some stories of this.
• Brownlow and Pulte did not tape it, did not retell it accurately, at certain points garbled it, and misunderstood some of the time sequencings.
• Enough comes through though in the hearsay retelling that it can be seen some things make sense from Mrs. Holan's true vantage point on Patton where she was actually living that day.
• A central part of Doris Holan's story was not only seeing "Oswald" (the gunman) run right close to and by her window and look up at her for a moment--as in fact according to witnesses the gunman did run that route at exactly the time Doris Holan would have run to her front window and looked--but she also told of seeing a police car backing up moving directly away from her across the street.
• Brownlow, who thinks Mrs. Holan was living on 10th Street, thinks Mrs. Holan was talking about a driveway between 404 and 410 E. 10th. That was in error, since Mrs. Holan was not living on 10th and could not have seen that driveway from where she was living. But that error can account for Brownlow paraphrasing or changing what Mrs. Holan said or meant, to "driveway". 
• What Mrs. Holan did see directly across from her front window, following hearing the shots that killed Tippit, was the alley, because that is what was out her front window.

In support of your conspiracy theory in which Pulte and Brownlow colluded in advance to fabricate out of whole cloth that Mrs. Holan told them anything ... you focus on a hairsplitting nitpick over Brownlow's attribution of the word "driveway" to Mrs. Holan (in Brownlow's retelling) versus "alley" (what actually was across the street from Mrs. Holan's front window).

You cite that nitpick as if that cannot have been a Brownlow paraphrase or fluidity in hearsay retelling. Because Brownlow may not be credible (you say) but he sure cannot have changed Mrs. Holan's description from "alley" to "driveway". This becomes an argument you cite in support of a full-blown conspiracy theory in which Pulte and Brownlow conspired to fabricate the entire Mrs. Holan story out of whole cloth, lie about it, and both stick to that witting lie forever after. 

But there is confusion over the words "driveway" and "alley" such that even some native English speakers are not always clear on the definitions and the difference. E.g.: "Driveway vs Alley: Unraveling Commonly Confused Terms" (https://thecontentauthority.com/blog/driveway-vs-alley); "Driveway vs. Alley: What's the Difference?" (https://www.askdifference.com/driveway-vs-alley/). 

In the end, why do you care if Doris Holan did see a police car leaving in a hurry after the Tippit killing (driven by an officer who did not kill Tippit but who believed his career would be in jeopardy if he was reported at that location at that time)? 

What if the story was true? What difference does it make really? 

What is underlying your leap into this particular unlikely conspiracy theory--that Pulte and Brownlow wittingly conspired in advance to fabricate out of whole cloth their story of visiting Doris Holan in the nursing home and that she, knowing she was going to die soon, had told them her memories Nov 22, 1963 as best she could.

When a mundane explanation is simpler and more sensible--that Doris Holan told what she remembered (or thought she remembered), of things some of which actually did occur--and that Doris Holan could be one more genuine Tenth and Patton witness that day, with her front window overlooking Patton.

You're a critic of unwarranted conspiracy theory thinking, often correct in such criticisms. But in this particular case it looks like you are going in an unwarranted conspiracy theory direction. As with CT's, when one is inside a CT it feels so real, doesn't it? Pay attention to your experience here, because it is what an unwarranted CT feels like from the inside!

The notion that Pulte and Brownlow conspired to fabricate that Mrs. Holan told them what she believed she remembered long ago is an unnecessary conspiracy theory, because (as brought out by Myers in his 2020 piece) it is extremely realistic that Doris Hoilan was home when the Tippit killing happened and could have and would have seen some of the things Pulte and Brownlow said she told them.

 

[Greg Doudna]

Bill, an added point or two that comes to mind:

It may not actually be totally impossible that Doris Holan could have seen a "driveway" (differing from the alley) in the vicinity of 404 and 410 E 10th from her vantage point from her window facing Patton, if she saw a car in the back of a house (not the front of the house toward 10th), backing out into the alley. I am not sure on this in terms of her line of sight, what exact view she had of the back yards of the e.g. 404 and 410 E. 10th street houses, but it is at least possible she was capable of seeing what looked like a patrol car (with a cherry on top) backing out into the alley (leaving rapidly from a previously parked position behind one of the houses). So although Brownlow may have ad-libbed or generated the "driveway" word himself in his telling, who knows, Doris Holan could even have used the word after all (we really don't know).

A second point is the description of the patrol car's movements in the "driveway" according to Brownlow relating Doris Holan--the going forward, then backing up, rapidly--sounds insensible from the mistaken 10th Street vantage point, but when considered from Doris Holan's true vantage point at her front window overlooking Patton and looking into the alley behind 404 and 410 E. 10th--it sounds like it could be a driver of the patrol car rapidly leaving from a parked position, heading nose forward coming toward Doris Holan's position intending to turn out onto Patton, but seeing something, maybe the gunman running by?--that caused him to suddenly shift into reverse and back up the other way. And since he is in a hurry, and the alley is narrow, he just cannot easily get the cruiser turned around, so continues in reverse eastward all the way to the other end of the alley before turning into the street there.

And a third point, why an off-duty officer would leave the vicinity of a murder in a hurry could have several possible explanations. It need not be fear of career consequences although that could be a motive. Let us suppose he was there for the affair that Myers' source spoke of. He could get out of there in a hurry if he feared the killing was Mob related. Or, he could leave in a hurry to protect the woman's privacy (prevent the affair from becoming public).

I think your distaste for Brownlow's and Pulte's reporting of interviews has clouded you from recognizing a glimpse of a story from an additional real Tenth and Patton witness, albeit coming to light many years later.   

Edited August 22, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Bill Brown]

Greg Doudna, of the witnesses who were outdoors and saw the patrol car stop alongside a man walking and/or saw Tippit before he was shot, people like Burt, Smith, Benavides, Markham and Scoggins, please list which of these REAL witnesses stated that there was a police car doing such a thing as going back and forth in ANY driveway of ANY of the houses along Tenth Street. 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Bill Brown

[Greg Doudna]

4 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Greg Doudna, of the witnesses who were outdoors and saw the patrol car stop alongside a man walking and/or saw Tippit before he was shot, people like Burt, Smith, Benavides, Markham and Scoggins, please list which of these REAL witnesses stated that there was a police car doing such a thing as going back and forth in ANY driveway of ANY of the houses along Tenth Street. 

You mean in the alley? None of the witnesses you name would have seen movements in the alley. As for witnesses who did see a patrol car movement in the alley, there is

• the claim of Doris Holan according to Brownlow and Pulte;
• the claim of Brownlow that Guinyard saw a patrol car movements in the alley (interesting that Brownlow has Guinyard putting the patrol car in the alley, the correct reconstructed position of Doris Holan's sighting from the location of Doris Holan's true front window location, even though Brownlow mistakenly thought Doris Holan was seeing on that driveway on 10th);
• the claim of the unnamed source cited by Myers that an officer was present and left (that account mentions an officer but no patrol car);
• and finally an officer's--off-duty deputy sheriff in plain clothes and patrol car actually--self-witnessing that he made unusual back-and-forth movements with his patrol car evocative of what were claimed in the Doris Holan story, although that deputy sheriff claimed he raced his patrol car driving in reverse on Patton and claimed it was ca. 1:35-40 pm at the time of the police radio bulletin concerning the Texas Theatre--even though no witness on Patton ever reported seeing any patrol car racing backward in reverse on Patton. Nor do I believe (correct if wrong Bill?) there is any known corroboration of any kind for Courson's presence at all on Patton at the Tenth and Patton crime scene at 1:35-1:40 or any other time on Patton, other than Courson's own first sayso 35 years later in Sneed 1998 (no deputy sheriff's report at all from him that day--very odd omission? since all the other deputy sheriffs turned in written reports of that day? why not Courson?--what is the explanation for the lack of a written report from Courson that day, do you know?)

So there are four possible accounts or echoes of varying degree of weight. Although I do not see any opposing negative argument against from the names you cite, would Callaway be one you might cite here who might be? Was Callaway standing about where Guinyard was, right in or next to the alley? Guinyard thought so? Or was Callaway farther south on Patton and might have missed seeing a patrol car's movement in the alley? I'm not sure. Anyway, Callaway did not say anything about seeing a patrol car in the alley. Maybe that is an argument? And as you have noted, Guinyard, the quiet African American who was the most agreeable witness to say what the police wanted to hear, is not reported as having volunteered anything about seeing a police car in the alley, to police taking his report, and I don't believe he was asked that question in his WC testimony. Yet from his position Guinyard certainly would have seen any patrol car that Doris Holan would have seen out her front window (if she did).  

On the Bill Courson story though, isn't it odd that no witness ever reported seeing any patrol car racing driving backwards on Patton at 1:35-1:40 pm, or any confirmation of Courson's presence on Patton at all? That seems to be a more substantial witness silence than that no one reported seeing a patrol car driving backward in the alley at ca 1:15 pm (other than the two claimed who said they did), since there were many more witnesses on Patton than in the alley.

I have suggested Courson's story in Sneed is a retelling by Courson of Courson's questionable actions that day with certain details massaged and modified, in which Courson (who ran for sheriff one year and narrowly missed being elected sheriff, Decker's old job) might be the unnamed witness referred to by Myers' source, and Courson's patrol car the patrol car's strange backward movement of the Doris Holan story of what she saw from her front window at ca 1:15.   

There are those items of "smoke" to the story, three modestly independently substantial in my opinion, or four if one includes the Brownlow/Guinyard which may or may not be an independent fourth.

And apart from a possible argument from silence of Callaway's not seeing a patrol car in the alley at the time of the shots (I suppose Callaway would have said so if he had seen it), or anyone else other than the four possible ones cited, there is no solid negative argument falsifying the patrol car movements in the alley of the Doris Holan story if she did speak of seeing such movements from her front window.

But while I acknowledge uncertainty, I am puzzled why you find more likely, less improbable, a definitely unlikely conspiracy theory for which there is no positive evidence-- your idea of advance collusion of Pulte and Brownlee to in concert manufacture out of whole cloth their claim in public presentation that Doris Holan told them some things). I don't find your conspiracy theory explanation very likely at all, apart from no evidence for such a conspiracy in the first place.

If Courson or any other office was present and did leave the scene of Tippit's murder hurriedly, without calling in immediately or (even though-off-duty if he had a firearm) immediately attempting to use his patrol car and firearm to apprehend the gunman running on Patton if he saw him, instead failing to report his presence there altogether that day, that is unconscionable and should have been a firing offense, not covered up.

But according to Myers' source, although only a few high-level persons knew of an officer's presence near the Tippit crime scene at the time of the shots, they covered it up, on behalf of that officer. That was Myers' high-level anonymous source's story to Myers.   

[Bill Brown]

46 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

You mean in the alley? None of the witnesses you name would have seen movements in the alley. As for witnesses who did see a patrol car movement in the alley, there is

• the claim of Doris Holan according to Brownlow and Pulte;
• the claim of Brownlow that Guinyard saw a patrol car movements in the alley (interesting that Brownlow has Guinyard putting the patrol car in the alley, the correct reconstructed position of Doris Holan's sighting from the location of Doris Holan's true front window location, even though Brownlow mistakenly thought Doris Holan was seeing on that driveway on 10th);
• the claim of the unnamed source cited by Myers that an officer was present and left (that account mentions an officer but no patrol car);
• and finally an officer's--off-duty deputy sheriff in plain clothes and patrol car actually--self-witnessing that he made unusual back-and-forth movements with his patrol car evocative of what were claimed in the Doris Holan story, although that deputy sheriff claimed he raced his patrol car driving in reverse on Patton and claimed it was ca. 1:35-40 pm at the time of the police radio bulletin concerning the Texas Theatre--even though no witness on Patton ever reported seeing any patrol car racing backward in reverse on Patton. Nor do I believe (correct if wrong Bill?) there is any known corroboration of any kind for Courson's presence at all on Patton at the Tenth and Patton crime scene at 1:35-1:40 or any other time on Patton, other than Courson's own first sayso 35 years later in Sneed 1998 (no deputy sheriff's report at all from him that day--very odd omission? since all the other deputy sheriffs turned in written reports of that day? why not Courson?--what is the explanation for the lack of a written report from Courson that day, do you know?)

So there are four possible accounts or echoes of varying degree of weight. Although I do not see any opposing negative argument against from the names you cite, would Callaway be one you might cite here who might be? Was Callaway standing about where Guinyard was, right in or next to the alley? Guinyard thought so? Or was Callaway farther south on Patton and might have missed seeing a patrol car's movement in the alley? I'm not sure. Anyway, Callaway did not say anything about seeing a patrol car in the alley. Maybe that is an argument? And as you have noted, Guinyard, the quiet African American who was the most agreeable witness to say what the police wanted to hear, is not reported as having volunteered anything about seeing a police car in the alley, to police taking his report, and I don't believe he was asked that question in his WC testimony. Yet from his position Guinyard certainly would have seen any patrol car that Doris Holan would have seen out her front window (if she did).  

On the Bill Courson story though, isn't it odd that no witness ever reported seeing any patrol car racing driving backwards on Patton at 1:35-1:40 pm, or any confirmation of Courson's presence on Patton at all? That seems to be a more substantial witness silence than that no one reported seeing a patrol car driving backward in the alley at ca 1:15 pm (other than the two claimed who said they did), since there were many more witnesses on Patton than in the alley.

I have suggested Courson's story in Sneed is a retelling by Courson of Courson's questionable actions that day with certain details massaged and modified, in which Courson (who ran for sheriff one year and narrowly missed being elected sheriff, Decker's old job) might be the unnamed witness referred to by Myers' source, and Courson's patrol car the patrol car's strange backward movement of the Doris Holan story of what she saw from her front window at ca 1:15.   

There are those items of "smoke" to the story, three modestly independently substantial in my opinion, or four if one includes the Brownlow/Guinyard which may or may not be an independent fourth.

And apart from a possible argument from silence of Callaway's not seeing a patrol car in the alley at the time of the shots (I suppose Callaway would have said so if he had seen it), or anyone else other than the four possible ones cited, there is no solid negative argument falsifying the patrol car movements in the alley of the Doris Holan story if she did speak of seeing such movements from her front window.

But while I acknowledge uncertainty, I am puzzled why you find more likely, less improbable, a definitely unlikely conspiracy theory for which there is no positive evidence-- your idea of advance collusion of Pulte and Brownlee to in concert manufacture out of whole cloth their claim in public presentation that Doris Holan told them some things). I don't find your conspiracy theory explanation very likely at all, apart from no evidence for such a conspiracy in the first place.

If Courson or any other office was present and did leave the scene of Tippit's murder hurriedly, without calling in immediately or (even though-off-duty if he had a firearm) immediately attempting to use his patrol car and firearm to apprehend the gunman running on Patton if he saw him, instead failing to report his presence there altogether that day, that is unconscionable and should have been a firing offense, not covered up.

But according to Myers' source, although only a few high-level persons knew of an officer's presence near the Tippit crime scene at the time of the shots, they covered it up, on behalf of that officer. That was Myers' high-level anonymous source's story to Myers.   

 

"You mean in the alley?

 

No.  I don't mean in the alley.  If I meant alley, then I would have said alley.  I said (and meant) driveway, since you said this (below):

 

"It may not actually be totally impossible that Doris Holan could have seen a "driveway" (differing from the alley) in the vicinity of 404 and 410 E 10th from her vantage point from her window facing Patton, if she saw a car in the back of a house (not the front of the house toward 10th), backing out into the alley."

 

[Greg Doudna]

Bill, why don’t you make whatever your point is and we can discuss it. I am not sure what you want from me since I doubt any witness said anything about a driveway in the first place. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Bill, why don’t you make whatever your point is and we can discuss it. I am not sure what you want from me since I doubt any witness said anything about a driveway in the first place. 

The alley sure looks as if it might be described as a "driveway" to me:

oak cliff texas - Bing Maps

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

The alley sure looks as if it might be described as a "driveway" to me:

oak cliff texas - Bing Maps

Well Paul the technical difference in definition is supposed to be that a driveway goes to an out-building whereas an alley goes between some buildings. Bill thinks because Brownlow retold Doris Holan’s story saying “driveway”, that therefore Doris Holan did not tell him and Pulte of seeing something in the alley out her front window, because, well, an alley is not the same as a driveway, as proved by a dictionary. That in turn is cited by Bill in support of Bills conspiracy theory of advance collusion of Brownlow and Pulte to wittingly fabricate that Doris Holan told them anything at all, of seeing out her front window after the shots that day.

I don’t believe Bill’s conclusion follows from the facts cited.

If Doris Holan was at home at the time, which Myers in 2020 showed pretty good evidence on independent grounds that she was, including a timed photo of her parked car there, then she would have seen everything on Patton and directly across into the alley out her front window in the moments following the shots—the gunman run by, Callaway… and any vehicle unusual movements in the alley if so.

Then the only issue becomes did she speak to Brownlee and Pulte of that which she saw long ago, or did they conspire to invent a story put in her name that agrees very well in similarity with that seen from her true Patton front window location that day—and Brownlow and Pulte invented the entire story in spite of neither Brownlow nor Pulte realizing Doris Holan lived there. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Bill Brown]

6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Bill, why don’t you make whatever your point is and we can discuss it. I am not sure what you want from me since I doubt any witness said anything about a driveway in the first place. 

 

I've already made my point.  You're changing "driveway" to "alley" in order to get it to fit your narrative... And none of the REAL witnesses who were outdoors at the time and saw Tippit talking to his killer ever mention a police car in any driveway.

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

I've already made my point.  You're changing "driveway" to "alley" in order to get it to fit your narrative... And none of the REAL witnesses who were outdoors at the time and saw Tippit talking to his killer ever mention a police car in any driveway.

And you're changing Mrs. Holan telling of a car making backing movements in a "driveway" to her saying nothing at all, in order to fit your narrative, which is a conspiracy theory which has no evidence for it and debatable whether is has much plausibility either.

I am not changing Brownlow's words any more than you.

Bill, please follow carefully here. (Please take this slowly and don't skim.) You and I both agree Brownlow said Doris Holan said "driveway". You and I both agree that Doris Holan did not see a car making backing movements in a driveway out her front window, as Brownlow said. These are facts common to you and me, agreed-upon facts stipulated, not in dispute. 

What is in dispute--is the nature of what you are calling a "change"--what Mrs. Holan actually said. You are changing Brownlow's "driveway" to Mrs. Holan said nothing, in order to agree with your conspiracy theory. I am changing Brownlow's "driveway" to Mrs. Holan describing a car making backing movements away from her in the alley out her front window which Brownlow garbled a bit in the retelling.  

So there you have it, that is the difference--you and I both are, and aren't, changing Brownlow's words depending on how it is viewed.

In this case, I suggest you are too quick to leap to a conspiracy theory, in your change of Brownlow's "driveway" to "nothing" in order to fit your conspiracy theory, whereas I am changing Brownlow's "driveway" non-conspiratorially to something Mrs. Holan could easily have said pre-garbling by Brownlow, based on the view from Mrs. Holan's front window.

It is not as if you are sticking to Brownlow's account of a patrol car in a driveway while I am changing from that.

You are changing that too, in order to fit your narrative of a conspiracy undertaken by Brownlow and Pulte.

The question is which proposed change of Brownlow's account is a more satisfactory change--the one involving necessity for conspiracy (your change), or the one supposing a phenomenon common in everyday life to which Brownlow was not immune (garbling, my change).

If you had some actual evidence for your conspiracy theory here, or some credible evidence that Brownlow and Pulte engaged in the kind of conspiracy you are supposing on other occasions, that would be a different matter. But you don't, and I am doubtful they ever did in the sense you are supposing.

You are ad hoc invoking a conspiracy, in your version of change from Brownlow, without any evidence. 

I am non-conspiratorially invoking supposition of everyday human behavior (hearsay garbling) in agreement with Doris Holan's front window view, in my version of change from Brownlow.

[Paul Jolliffe]

19 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Well Paul the technical difference in definition is supposed to be that a driveway goes to an out-building whereas an alley goes between some buildings. Bill thinks because Brownlow retold Doris Holan’s story saying “driveway”, that therefore Doris Holan did not tell him and Pulte of seeing something in the alley out her front window, because, well, an alley is not the same as a driveway, as proved by a dictionary. That in turn is cited by Bill in support of Bills conspiracy theory of advance collusion of Brownlow and Pulte to wittingly fabricate that Doris Holan told them anything at all, of seeing out her front window after the shots that day.

I don’t believe Bill’s conclusion follows from the facts cited.

If Doris Holan was at home at the time, which Myers in 2020 showed pretty good evidence on independent grounds that she was, including a timed photo of her parked car there, then she would have seen everything on Patton and directly across into the alley out her front window in the moments following the shots—the gunman run by, Callaway… and any vehicle unusual movements in the alley if so.

Then the only issue becomes did she speak to Brownlee and Pulte of that which she saw long ago, or did they conspire to invent a story put in her name that agrees very well in similarity with that seen from her true Patton front window location that day—and Brownlow and Pulte invented the entire story in spite of neither Brownlow nor Pulte realizing Doris Holan lived there. 

Oh yes, that is quite clear to all who have followed this thread so far, except (obviously) to Bill Brown himself.

No reasonable person believes that Pulte and Brownlow completely fabricated an interview with a woman who decades later (unbeknownst to them), turned out to live EXACTLY where she could indeed see the alley/driveway with a police car in it!

 

My point in adding the link above was to show (as closely as possible from afar) the view Doris Holan really did have that day from her window at 113 Patton.

I don't care about the dictionary distinction between "driveway" and "alley" because none of us know for sure which word she used, and anyway, for all we know she may have used those terms interchangeably.

It doesn't matter which word she used to describe the place WHERE she saw a police car. We know WHERE she was looking, as those who click this link can see it for themselves. 

At the time they interviewed Doris Holan, neither Bill Pulte nor Michael Brownlow had any idea that this was what she could see:

oak cliff texas - Bing Maps

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Oh yes, that is quite clear to all who have followed this thread so far, except (obviously) to Bill Brown himself.

No reasonable person believes that Pulte and Brownlow completely fabricated an interview with a woman who decades later (unbeknownst to them), turned out to live EXACTLY where she could indeed see the alley/driveway with a police car in it!

 

My point in adding the link above was to show (as closely as possible from afar) the view Doris Holan really did have that day from her window at 113 Patton.

I don't care about the dictionary distinction between "driveway" and "alley" because none of us know for sure which word she used, and anyway, for all we know she may have used those terms interchangeably.

It doesn't matter which word she used to describe the place WHERE she saw a police car. We know WHERE she was looking, as those who click this link can see it for themselves. 

At the time they interviewed Doris Holan, neither Bill Pulte nor Michael Brownlow had any idea that this was what she could see:

oak cliff texas - Bing Maps

 

Hmm. For some reason, the link changed.

https://www.bing.com/maps?q=oak+cliff+texas&FORM=HDRSC7&cp=32.746676~-96.818376&lvl=18.6&pi=-18.3&style=x&dir=73.7

[Greg Doudna]

"Oh yes, that is quite clear to all who have followed this thread so far, except (obviously) to Bill Brown himself.

"No reasonable person believes that Pulte and Brownlow completely fabricated an interview with a woman who decades later (unbeknownst to them), turned out to live EXACTLY where she could indeed see the alley/driveway with a police car in it (...) It doesn't matter which word she used to describe the place WHERE she saw a police car. We know WHERE she was looking ... At the time they interviewed Doris Holan, neither Bill Pulte nor Michael Brownlow had any idea that this was what she could see ..."

Well put Paul. 

There is Doris Holan in position to see and told what she saw (to Brownlow and Pulte); Guinyard who said he saw a patrol car in the same location as Doris Holan's line of sight out her front window (Brownlow); Myers' highly-placed source who told him that there was an undisclosed officer witness of the Tippit killing known to some higher-ups in Dallas which was covered up.

And there is all the mystery over the account of Detective, Criminal Division of the Dallas County Sheriff's Department, Billy Joe Courson (1930-1990) (https://dallascounty.civicweb.net/document/115629/), of his whereabouts and movements in Oak Cliff at the Tippit crime scene and Texas Theatre, in light of a total absence of any reporting unlike other DPD officers and sheriff's department persons that day. Courson, who in his oral history for Sneed said he was at the Tippit crime scene on 10th Street and drove his marked patrol car on 10th Street at speed, in reverse, backwards (!) (Sneed, No More Silence, 484).

Some postscripts on Courson. First, his presence in Oak Cliff following the Tippit killing is not in question since other officers spoke of seeing him at the Texas Theatre and Courson also was recorded on police radio that day from Oak Cliff. But second, Courson is not attested or corroborated at all, so far as I know, at 10th and Patton even though Courson claimed in Sneed 1998 that he was there on 10th Street driving in reverse backwards, the same kind of movement of the patrol car Doris Holan said she saw out the front of her window seconds after the shots, driving in reverse backwards.

More on Courson from his account in Sneed 1998, for those who do not have access to read it directly:

• Courson died in 1990, eight years before his oral history was published in Sneed in 1998 (p. 506) (Gravestone: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/24661103/billy-joe-courson )
• Courson ran for Sheriff of Dallas County (yr unstated) and lost by only 229 votes out of 76,000 votes cast (p. 506)
• Courson's fulltime job for the Sheriff's department was to go out in plain clothes in evenings to places known criminals hung out, such as the Carousel Club, and fraternize with them to gain intelligence (pp. 481, 496, 498). By Courson's account he spent increased time in the Carousel Club just before the assassination--was there two or three evenings in the week or two before the assassination (p. 496).
• Courson describes taking a pistol belonging to Jack Ruby from Ruby when Ruby was being briefly booked and in custody several weeks before the assassination. The next day Courson says he arranged to buy the pistol from Ruby for $50 cash without checking the serial number to see if it was "hot", and without receiving a bill of sale (p. 492). (This is Courson's story of how he carried around what some might call a "throw-down" pistol if it was ever needed, as some well-prepared officers liked to have just in case they shot someone unarmed--if the dead person had not been armed before he became dead, he became retroactively armed after he was dead justifying the officer firing in self-defense.) (If it were not that Courson claims he paid Ruby for the pistol without getting a receipt, it could also sound like that pistol was a bribe Ruby had given Courson.) Then on the day of the assassination Courson claims he was spooked by having what might be a "hot" pistol obtained from Ruby, so he turned the pistol in to the sheriff's office tagged and logged in as found property. Then later Courson says he reconsidered again and decided to take the same pistol out of the sheriff's office into his personal possession without authorization or paperwork and kept it as his personal property (pp. 491-93).
• Courson by his account let the man he later believed had killed Tippit, and who may have been the man who killed Tippit, walk right by him coming down out of the Texas Theatre balcony as Courson went up into the balcony looking for the killer whom Courson had been instructed was in the balcony (p. 485). "I'm reasonably satisfied in my own mind that I met Oswald coming down [it wasn't Oswald]... I didn't stop him" (485). 
• Courson claims at the time of the JFK assassination he was at home far to the south in DeSoto, that his wife was gone, that he normally would go into work about 3 or 4 pm including that day. Upon learning the news that JFK had been shot, Courson says, he put on his previous day's plain clothes (instead of a fresh shirt) (even though he says he was at his own home). Wearing yesterday's clothes he then says he drove his car, a marked patrol cruiser (p. 484), headed toward downtown Dallas where he would normally go but at the last moment decided to turn west into Oak Cliff instead (unrelated to the news of Tippit, before news Tippit had been shot), checking in to the dispatcher reporting himself on duty en route there. That is Courson's explanation of how he first appears that day in service in Oak Cliff, far from home, wearing yesterday's clothes (pp. 482-84).
• Courson claims he was on 10th driving past the Tippit patrol car maybe 15 minutes or so after Tippit was killed, that driving his patrol car he "backed up" and "ran a race, my going backwards ... to see who could make that turn to get onto Jefferson first" (p. 484). Nobody ever told of seeing a patrol car racing in reverse on 10th; nobody ever told of seeing Courson or his cruiser on 10th at all, whether other officer or civilian witness. But Courson's description of his patrol car's unusual movements sound similar to what Doris Holan said she saw a patrol car doing out her front window seconds after the shots.
• Courson spoke well of the ethics in the sheriff's department, how sheriff Decker would not approve of deputies "beating the fire out of somebody on the street unless that somebody took a swing at a deputy first. Then Decker expected you to knock the man loose from his damn glasses" (p. 503). (Good to know the sheriff's department had its principles.)
• Courson himself tells of his slugging--assaulting--deputy sheriff Buddy Walthers--"he was hurt pretty badly"--with Walthers attempting to draw his gun on Courson in self-defense. Courson says Decker let him voluntarily resign from the sheriff's department without known further consequences after that episode (p. 499).
• In light of the above, was Courson the referent of Myers' high-level source saying that an officer was present "having an affair" at the scene of the Tippit killing when Tippit was killed, and the patrol car Doris Holan says she saw backing up and leaving driving backwards out her front window moments later?

But if it was Courson who left the scene of the Tippit killing without reporting that he was there, what is to be made of that? That seems a very serious thing for an officer to have done--and why would it be covered up? 

It is difficult (at least for me) to imagine an officer participating in a murder of a fellow officer. However is it possible Courson was at that location for some reason other than an affair, not involving any advance knowledge or witting participation in a murder, but which turned out to be somehow involved in that murder? 

Who knows the truth?

If only Myers could find a way in his conscience to reveal the identity of the high-level source who told Myers that a few high-level people in Dallas knew all along that there was a secret officer witness at the Tippit crime scene that day, never identified or outed, covered up by upper-level law enforcement in Dallas.

Is Myers' source on that still alive? Would not the greater interest of history justify Myers disclosing the identity of that source?

Edited August 25, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Ron Bulman]

I prefer google maps street view but we'll get to that.  I can't remember the answer to another question at the moment.

It seems from this thread some of us may have been misled by a Warren Commission Exhibit.  Imagine that.  The Ariel Photograph of the scene of the Tippit shooting shows Doris Holan on 10th St., straight across from Tippit's car and the Driveway it blocked.

She was apparently at 113 Patton, fifty yards or so from 10th.  Meaning she wasn't looking up the driveway from 10th from the front but at it from the side on Patton.  Important.  She was looking at the back yards of the first two residences on 10th St.  The driveway between the second and third houses on 10th which led to the alley behind them all.  She could see a DPD cop car back up the driveway to the alley given the view in the Ariel photo, which does show her house, though the real location is

 

mis identified in it.  The house was not directly across from the alley but had a clear view of it.  Easy to figure out.  Just under/beside the Scoggins notation, Not on 10th St.

Here's the current view from google street maps.  With a long brick house and car port blocking the view, not of the alley as gm only let me see from 111.  The alley and driveway could be seen from the address in 1963.

111 S Patton Ave - Google Maps

[Greg Doudna]

Excellent for showing that aerial photo from 1964 and your comments Ron B. Mrs. Holan hearing shots would run to her front window. That front window is on the second floor of the right front side of the building under the capital “S” of the “Scoggins” label. And from there one can see where Mrs. Holan would have seen, including what she said was a police car first moving forward, then shifting into reverse and going backward.

One can see clearly from this aerial photo that witness Scoggins could not have seen the patrol car that Mrs. Holan said she saw. The one witness—the one known witness who for sure would have seen it—Guinyard, according to Brownlow told Brownlow he DID see a police patrol car right there in that alley just after the shots. 

And it is very possible that we may have a third account of that police car from the driver, Courson in Sneed, even though he changed details to make it occur benignly ca. 15-20 minutes after tippit was shot instead of the maybe ca. 30 seconds or so after the tippit killing told by Mrs. Holan and Guinyard. 

This was no ordinary officer driving that patrol car, if it was Courson. Courson’s job for Sheriff Decker sounds like it could function as an ongoing direct contacts mechanism with the crime underworld including Ruby, as part of his direct job description and duties, for whatever that may mean. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Greg Doudna