POLICE CAR IN THE ALLEY? NOPE.

[Bill Brown]

9 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Interesting. You are serious that you think Doris Holan never said any of that to Brownlow or Pulte? But Pulte was sitting right there with and agreeing with Brownlow in a video of Brownlow telling the story, and Pulte was with Brownlow one of the times visiting Doris Holan when she was dying of cancer. Is it believable that Pulte too would agree to endorse a total fabrication of Brownlow?

Do you accept or question that they visited her when she was dying of cancer as they said?

That Brownlow and Pulte could distort or embellish what Doris Holan said I do not doubt. But that there never was a Doris Holan story at all, that's a bit much. Why is that more likely than that they had a story of Doris Holan and just told it their way? It seems a bit much to me that both Brownlow and Pulte would collude in a total fabrication and Doris Holan never had any such story in some form. Please say more. Explain?

 

You do realize that Holan (from her apartment halfway down Patton) couldn't have seen a police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E. 10th Street, right?  Dale Myers proved that she did not live on Tenth Street on 11/22/63, as mistakenly claimed by Brownlow, et al.

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

You do realize that Holan (from her apartment halfway down Patton) couldn't have seen a police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E. 10th Street, right?  Dale Myers proved that she did not live on Tenth Street on 11/22/63, as mistakenly claimed by Brownlow, et al.

Yes Myers proved that, and yes I realize Mrs. Holan could not have seen a police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E. 10th Street, and that is not my claim. I am claiming Mrs. Holan told of seeing a police car backing up in the alley, not that driveway, even though Brownlow said driveway. I am saying Brownlow screwed up the retelling of Doris Holan's story such as on that point. The backing-up of a patrol car of Doris Holan's story was true but her story I am reconstructing was she told of what she saw of that car in the alley. Brownlow changed what Doris Holan said of the alley to as if Doris Holan said it occurred in the driveway. Doris Holan never claimed other than what she could see from her second-story window on Patton which was the alley. Does it make sense now what I am saying?

[Bill Brown]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Yes Myers proved that, and yes I realize Mrs. Holan could not have seen a police car in the driveway between 404 and 410 E. 10th Street, and that is not my claim. I am claiming Mrs. Holan told of seeing a police car backing up in the alley, not that driveway, even though Brownlow said driveway. I am saying Brownlow screwed up the retelling of Doris Holan's story such as on that point. The backing-up of a patrol car of Doris Holan's story was true but her story I am reconstructing was she told of what she saw of that car in the alley. Brownlow changed what Doris Holan said of the alley to as if Doris Holan said it occurred in the driveway. Doris Holan never claimed other than what she could see from her second-story window on Patton which was the alley. Does it make sense now what I am saying?

 

You're literally changing a story for no other reason than to have it fit your narrative.

 

[Guest]

If one can accept she did see a police car backing-up, it must have been in the alley, no ?

To fully dismiss her story... don't know.

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Bill Brown]

1 minute ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

If one can accept she did see a police car backing-up... it must have been in the alley.

 

 

 

But that is not the claim.

 

[Gil Jesus]

On 10/7/2022 at 4:00 PM, Bill Brown said:

Benavides drove his truck east in the alley and never made any mention of any police cars being in that alley. Those familiar with the tall-tales of supposed "researchers" will understand the significance of this. The bottom line is, there was no police car in that alley approximately ninety seconds before the Tippit shooting.

Nobody ever reported a car broken down on Patton Ave. 90 seconds before the shooting.

Are we to believe that it wasn't there as well ?

[Bill Brown]

5 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Nobody ever reported a car broken down on Patton Ave. 90 seconds before the shooting.

Are we to believe that it wasn't there as well ?

 

I suppose you believe that not noticing any old vehicle parked out on the street is comparable to not noticing a police car in an alley.

 

Your faulty logic never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Greg Doudna]

But Bill, when was Benavides ever asked? How do you know what he did or didn't see in that alley when he drove through, since you have no idea? 

I would like you to further defend the plausibility of your claim that both Brownlow and Pulte colluded in fabricating in its entirety a story attributed to Doris Holan and that Doris Holan never told any such story (of seeing a backing-up police car leaving the scene in the alley, from the second-story window of where she was living, moments after the Tippit killing, which was not Tippit's cruiser).  

We have a credible-sounding report from Myers' himself, reported favorably by Myers, of high-level endorsement to the presence of a police officer who was not Tippit at the scene of the Tippit killing when Tippit was killed, an officer who was, so Myers was told, there because of an affair, and left surreptitiously and his identity hidden by that officer and others from public knowledge. 

And here's a story of Doris Holan who says she saw a police car leave in the alley--Doris Holan who thanks to Myers' digging and reporting in 2020 established for the first time where she actually lived that day, in a perfect position to look right into that alley and to have seen a police car leave in that alley.

Police officer leaves. Police car seen leaving. Hmmmm, wonder if there could be some connection? 

And my contribution (modest bow) is I think I have found the heretofore-unrecognized firsthand story from that officer that day giving his version--his spin!--of that very thing, and the name of the officer associated with the patrol car. 

That's some interesting converging lines going to the same thing that have not previously been put together, if you step back from nitpicking and just look at it.  

[Greg Doudna]

The Brownlow telling of Doris Holan's story (as reported by Myers)

Bolding below is added by me. Remember: On Nov 22, 1963 Doris Holan lived at 113-1/2 S. Patton St., in a second-story apartment on the west side of Patton whose front window faced east directly overlooking with direct line of sight looking east into the alley between Patton and Denver. Right in front of her as she looked out the window. 

Assume Brownlow has mixed up disparate parts of a Doris Holan story: how she heard shots, ran to her window, saw some things on Patton and in the alley directly in front of her. How she too saw the killer, gun in hand, going south on Patton, and Callaway on the other side of the street from her, right in front of her window. And then how she saw the same exchange between Callaway and the killer going on opposite sides of Patton in opposite directions waving to each other that Callaway reported and Acquila Clemons saw. Then Doris Holan went back to her room, put on her clothes, came down, went outside, walked around the corner on foot to where the Tippit cruiser and fallen Tippit was and saw that too with the people gathering there. Assume that Brownlow has butchered and mixed up these things, gotten some things out of order and wrongly associated, but the elements of Doris Holan's story are there and come through. For Brownlow's "driveway" read original Doris Holan "alley". Read the heavyset man as Callaway, who waved at the killer on Patton and then went to where the fallen Tippit was on Tenth. -- gd

 

[BEGIN EXCERPT from Myers Nov 19, 2020 (https://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2020/11/doris-e-holan-and-tippit-murder.html)]

Brownlow stated that Holan told him she awoke at about 1:12 to 1:14 p.m. – “somewhere in that neighborhood” – lit a cigarette and heard four shots.

 

Brownlow then provided a detailed account of what Holan allegedly told him – details that went far beyond, in my opinion, what one would expect to hear in an interview conducted thirty-seven years after the fact. This is an indication that either Holan or Brownlow or both were exaggerating the account:

“And I asked her, I said, ‘Miss Holan, are you sure it was four shots?’ She said, ‘Big Mike’ – she called me ‘Big Mike’ – she said, ‘Yes,’ she said definitely, ‘It was four shots.’ She said, ‘I was sitting on the bed in my pajamas.’ And she said it startled her and she dropped her cigarette. She reached down and picked the cigarette up and put it in an ashtray. She got up and she ran from the back bedroom – she lived in the upstairs apartment – the bedroom’s in the back – and there was like a middle room and a kitchen – a little kitchen and dining room together, and a little hallway and bathroom and then the living room. So, she ran from the back to the living room and threw the curtain back and looked out the window and she could see this officer – Dallas police officer laying in the street; saw his squad car. And she said, on the sidewalk was a man. She said he had a gun in his hand. He had on a white jacket, black pants – ah – kind of a receding, balding hairline. And as she threw the curtain back, I guess the motion of the curtain – ‘cause he was facing her – he looked up and saw her in the window. And she looked at him. I asked her – I said, ‘Miss Holan,’ I said, ‘when you looked him in the face,’ I said, ‘and he looked at you?’ And she said, ‘Yes.’ She said – I said, ‘Do you think from the distance, where you were looking down and he was looking up, could you have identified him?’ She said, ‘Well, I’ve always said it like this,’ she said, ‘The man that I saw later that evening on TV and in the interviews and when Ruby shot him,’ she said, ‘if it wasn’t him, it was his twin brother.’ She said, ‘But on the day of, if they would have asked me, could I identify him? I would have had to say, no, she said, because I don’t think I could have made a positive identification.’ She said, ‘But, it most definitely, to a ninety-percent probability was that man that I saw on TV later.’ She said, same height and – she noticed that his hair was kind of out of place…” [91]

After looking out the window at Tippit’s assailant, Holan reportedly told Brownlow that at that moment a strange thing happened.

 

As she watched the man in the white jacket, a second man walked down the driveway in a dark blue jacket. Mrs. Holan claimed the second man was about the same height as the man in the white jacket but much heavier – weighing well over two-hundred pounds.

 

She also claimed she saw a Dallas police squad car, that apparently originated from the back of the lot, rolling slowly down the driveway toward the street. About half-way down the driveway, the squad car stopped.

 

“She said, I could see this – on the left side – the cherry – what they called the ‘cherry on top’,” Brownlow tells us. [92]

 

Mrs. Holan told Brownlow that the heavy-set man in the blue jacket hurried down the driveway and walked out into the middle of street, and looked down at the officer. He had nothing in his hands.

 

“And then he turned to the man in the white jacket,” Brownlow said, “and began to do this [gesturing with his arm as if to say ‘Go on’] – like telling him to leave; get out of there. She said, that’s when the man in the white jacket turned to his left and proceeded toward Patton.” [93]

 

Mrs. Holan told Brownlow that she watched the man in the white jacket until he disappeared from view, rounding the corner house and heading south on Patton Avenue. Her eyes shifted back to the heavy-set man in the dark blue jacket, who was now retreating back up the driveway toward the police car, which was continuing to back-up in the driveway. [94]

 

“So, she ran back to her bedroom and threw on some – she like – what we call women’s sweats, Brownlow said. “She had a pajama bottom on, but she wanted – she said she had some black sweats – sweat pants like – and then she had a top laying on a chair.” [95]

 

Here again, Brownlow provides an over-abundance of detail that sounds more like exaggeration than truth.

 

Then, Brownlow said, “And she grabbed her glasses and slipped on some shoes and she ran down the steps and ran out to the street.” (emphasis added) [96]

 

Lad Holan, Jr., did confirm that his mother wore eye-glasses in 1963, and was near-sighted (i.e., everything beyond a short distance is blurry without the corrective lenses). [97]

 

This is an important point because it means that everything Doris Holan claimed to have seen, before she put on her glasses, would be highly questionable if not impossible, depending on how strong of a prescription she needed to correct her vision. 

 

[END EXCERPT from Myers 2020]

[Michael Kalin]

Evidence that Benavides was not present at the Tippit murder scene at the time of the shooting:

1. Leavelle's Supplementary Offense Report states explicitly that Benavides "did not see suspect."
2. Leavelle's Case Report omits Benavides altogether.
3. DPD's arraignment papers omit Benavides altogether.
4. A Secret Service Report (12/1/63) omits Benavides from a list of "WITNESSES TO THE SHOOTING."
5. An FBI letter to Rankin (3/26/64) omits Benavides from a list of those "who observed Lee Harvey Oswald during and subsequent to the shooting of Patrolman J. D. Tippit."

What all this means is much of Benavides' WC testimony is bogus. His tale that places himself 15 feet away as shots were fired is false. It follows that the entire narrative commencing with the disabled vehicle on Patton is nonsense.

Since he did not see the suspect it also follows that his description of same to Belin is more nonsense. So what's left? Not much more than a red Ford, and even that does not pass muster. He later told journalist Berendt it was a red Ford with a white top.

With a witness such as this it is futile to discuss where he was at the time of the murder, although my money says he was home eating lunch with mother.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Michael Kalin

[Joseph McBride]

Michael, how can you place faith in any of those 5 sources?

[Ron Bulman]

The police car wouldn't have been in the alley except when it was approaching or leaving the Driveway between the two houses it was seen on, which was blocked by Tippit's patrol car in the street.

[Greg Doudna]

Just to be clear, Myers after definitively taking apart the notion that Doris Holan lived on 10th Street on Nov 22, 1963 and showing instead that Doris Holan actually lived on Patton with the perfect view of the east-west alley running between Patton and Denver, rejects in its entirety the entire story of Doris Holan as transmitted via Brownlow and Pulte, calling it "not credible on any level". Myers concludes his Nov 2020 piece:

"To date, neither Pulte nor Brownlow have produced anything to support the contents of what Doris Holan reportedly told them.

 

"Not credible on any level

 

"In my mind, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

 

"Given the extraordinary claim attributed to Doris E. Holan – a claim that is completely at odds with all other known eyewitness accounts – I submit that only extraordinary proof could be offered to support Holan’s residency at 409 E. Tenth on November 22, 1963, and her alleged claim that two Dallas police officers were present when Patrolman J.D. Tippit was murdered.

 

"Given the facts I gathered over the last seven months, and presented herein, it is quite evident that no such proof will ever be forthcoming since the Doris E. Holan story – as presented by Pulte, Brownlow and their surrogates – is not credible on any level." (https://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2020/11/doris-e-holan-and-tippit-murder.html)

 

Well, Myers just missed this one big. Even after Myers' relocation of Doris Holan to where she actually lived is the key to the solution showing what is credible in the Doris Holan story made possible because of a true understanding of Doris Holan's line-of-sight from her second-story window that day.

 

Myers argues in his 2020 piece that Doris Holan was at her home at the time of the Tippit killing that day. Well for crying out loud, she's right on Patton with a living room window looking right on to Patton. What else would a person do inside that apartment after hearing shots on 10th than run to that window? And what would a person running to a window looking out on Patton (and the alley running east) be expected to see when she got there and looked? The Doris Holan story has her saying she saw the gunman running, gun in hand! Right below her apartment! She's on Patton, looking on Patton, moments after the shots! And that's where the gunman did run, gun in hand moving over to the west side of Patton, right under Doris Holan's apartment! Jesus Christ, why wouldn't she have seen the gunman?

 

"Not credible on any level"? Baloney. Doris Holan's story is credible on a level below Brownlow's hearsay retelling and confusions introduced thereof.  

 

Bill Brown, I have never seen you differ significantly from Myers once. You just stick with Myers on rejection of the Doris Holan story in toto, and keep missing this one too, if you like.

 

Incidentally, the fact that Myers missed the implications of his finding of where Doris Holan lived is not too important. Nobody else has to miss those implications just because Myers did. What Myers did was the hard digging of establishing important facts. That is what matters, and nobody did that before Myers, referring to establishing where Doris Holan lived on Nov 22, 1963.  

[Bill Brown]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

The police car wouldn't have been in the alley except when it was approaching or leaving the Driveway between the two houses it was seen on, which was blocked by Tippit's patrol car in the street.

 

No.

 

The driveway didn't go through to the alley.

 

[Bill Brown]

Greg Doudna said:

 

"Bill Brown, I have never seen you differ significantly from Myers once. You just stick with Myers on rejection of the Doris Holan story in toto, and keep missing this one too, if you like."

 

Hey, when you're right, you're right.

 

Greg, you're changing the entire story.  Fiction is fun, right?