POLICE CAR IN THE ALLEY? NOPE.

[Sean Coleman]

11 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

No.

 

The driveway didn't go through to the alley.

 

Am interested in debates, helps me come to a conclusion.

But BB your rebukes are so 1 dimensional.

ie. Include a pic as back up maybe? 

 

 

[Guest]

If someone would like to put an X as to where she lived on 10th (never mind the building structures drawn here, it's a current view), but the approx. location ?  The alley is still the same I believe ?

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

I like this map, found it on

https://22novembernetwork.wordpress.com/

(I have no relation to that website, I didn't ask permission so it could be I'll have to remove this soon)

But I do not know if it is correct in it's displays

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Greg Doudna]

Jean Paul, see the big building farthest left in the photo below on the north side of Patton on the corner of the alley? That's where Doris Holan lived, on the second story. Her window looked right out on Patton where she not only would have seen both the gunman and Callaway, but in her story she did. Acquila Clemons was located where "Markham" is marked below and also had line-of-sight to the gunman-Callaway waving/"(what's) go(ing) on!"shouting/opposite-directions interaction. That interaction of the gunman and Callaway can now be recognized to have three independent, distinct versions from two witnesses directly and a third, Holan, via Brownlow's retelling (hearsay). The three versions of the gunman/Callaway interaction are from Callaway himself (Warren Commission testimony), Acquila Clemons (a Mark Lane interview on Utube), and Doris Holan (via Brownlow's retelling). 

You can see in the photo below the erroneous marking of Doris Holan on 10th Street. As Myers brought out in 2020, although the Holan family did live there at one time, on Nov 22, 1963 they were not living there. Yet the Brownlow/Pulte story, and all stories of seeing a police cruiser in the driveway between 410 and 406 (Ron Bulman, heads up!), stem from that mistaken location of Mrs. Holan, on 10th St., instead of where she actually was, on Patton at the building which can be seen below. 

What happened was Brownlow and Pulte told the story of Doris Holan in terms of where they thought she was on 10th St. They had Doris Holan seeing a patrol car backing up in that driveway. When that story is considered in light of where Doris Holan actually was and her actual line of sight, the backing up of the patrol car (assuming the backing up of a patrol car in her story is from Doris Holan) can only be with reference to the alley itself. Not much difference between "driveway" and "alley" for Brownlow to get confused, especially if the patrol car Doris Holan saw "backing" in the alley had to have come from having been parked in one of the back yards or driveways adjoining the alley.

Bob Brown might comment on if he thinks the part of Doris Holan's story about seeing the gunman, and also seeing another figure loosely corresponding to Callaway, out her front window, never happened, especially the gunman. But if those elements of Doris Holan's story ring true (because they could hardly be otherwise, if she was at home that day at that hour, as Myers argues was the case), then it follows by extension that the part of the story about her seeing a patrol cruiser backing up could be credible too.

Certainly Doris Holan from her window on Patton could not physically see any car sandwiched between 410 and 406. Whether she could have seen a police cruiser parked behind 406 or 410, in a backyard or just off the alley--whether her line of sight view would be totally or only partially blocked of all of the area behind 410 or 406 is a little unclear from this photo. 

Note in deputy sheriff William Courson's version of his patrol car's movements that day he describes being part of "a race, my going backwards", on 10th Street, which is about as odd of a way to drive a patrol car on a public street as can be. That is why I think Courson is the identity of the driver of the patrol car Doris Holan saw backing up--the patrol car seen by Doris Holan first coming toward her, then stopping, then backing up moving away from Doris Holan, from her point of view from where she was seeing. It is parallel versions of the same thing, except Doris Holan saw the patrol car backing up away from her in the alley, whereas Courson says his odd racing his patrol car backwards occurred on 10th Street. I remember realizing with amazement reading Courson in Sneed that he was telling another version of Doris Holan's story and Myers' affair officer story but with some altered details. Courson's telling of reporting to duty in Oak Cliff wearing his yesterday's street clothing was the tipoff to me that he could be the unidentified officer of the affair at the scene of which Myers speaks at p. 374 of With Malice. I discerned that Courson--so missing in anything written or spoken by him of that day in reports both official and unofficial, except in his Sneed account, the only place in his life I can find where he spoke at all of his movements on Nov 22--was giving his account, with explanations of what witnesses may potentially have seen of his movements that day in a way more acceptable than that he got into a cruiser in the back of say 410 or 406 or wherever and wheeled away in a hurry after the shots that killed Tippit rather than stay to assist or report what he saw that day. 

The Myers 2020 blog piece on Doris Holan has more photos. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Michael Kalin]

19 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

Michael, how can you place faith in any of those 5 sources?

Joseph, #1 (Leavelle's Supplementary Offense Report) is the key item for two reasons. One, that Benavides "did not see suspect," and two, that Benavides gave a statement to DPD which never saw the light of day.

Easy enough to equivocate both into insignificance even when not totally ignored, but there are other circumstances that point to a subornation.

1. Big lie by Benavides to WC regarding the phone call from Tippit's squad car (6H449). Bowley made this call, but he was not called as a witness.
2. Benavides also gave a statement to the FBI on 11/22/63. It too is missing.
3. Weird interlude of Benavides walking toward his mother's house before turning back (6H449).
4. Guinyard's observation of Benavides arriving by truck about the time of #3 (7H398).

It's not much of a stretch to conclude Benavides was subbed in for Bowley with a role suitably augmented by the suborners. If this reasoning is sound, and two missing statements that were given the day of the murder support the argument, some kind of corroboration is required to substantiate his claim that he was at the murder scene when it occurred.

You talked with Leavelle. I do not remember reading about the SOR in "Into the Nightmare," which I am now rereading, so far not seeing anything on point. Did you discuss the implications of the SOR with him?

My guess is Benavides wanted to talk about the spent shells which meant little to Leavelle's tight case, so he was handed off to give statements and sent home. Benavides did not tell Leavelle or anyone else at HQ anything that might be construed as conferring eyewitness status on himself. Both statements reflected this.

You've been into this far longer and much deeper than I. Give me something solid to dispel my doubt about Benavides' veracity and I'll let it go.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Michael Kalin

[Michael Kalin]

6 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Am interested in debates, helps me come to a conclusion.

But BB your rebukes are so 1 dimensional.

ie. Include a pic as back up maybe? 

Here's a link to an old post about the alley. Sadly, Duke Lane's photos are no longer available, but his "field report" is worth reading. Brownlow's alley rests on shaky grounds.
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/2862-j-d-tippit-was-he-part-of-the-conspiracy/page/4/#comment-46204

If you have the time read the entire lengthy thread. Interesting stuff.

[Bill Brown]

6 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Am interested in debates, helps me come to a conclusion.

But BB your rebukes are so 1 dimensional.

ie. Include a pic as back up maybe? 

 

 

 

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2020/11/doris-e-holan-and-tippit-murder.html

 

[Joseph McBride]

 

Bowley told me Benavides was at the scene

and tried to call the police before he

managed to do so.

[Ron Bulman]

40 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

 

Bowley told me Benavides was at the scene

and tried to call the police before he

managed to do so.

A firsthand witness statement. 

[Gil Jesus]

On 10/7/2022 at 4:00 PM, Bill Brown said:

The bottom line is, there was no police car in that alley approximately ninety seconds before the Tippit shooting.

Who cares ? How does "no police car in that alley" prove your case that Oswald killed Tippit ?

It doesn't.

What it does do is allow you to take a shot at those, ( as you call "researchers" ) who believe there was a police car in an alley, but unless there is evidence that someone in that car killed Tippit or was somehow involved in the killing, whether or not it was in the alley has no relevance to the case. 

 

 

[Michael Kalin]

9 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

 

Bowley told me Benavides was at the scene

and tried to call the police before he

managed to do so.

Bowley said as much to Moriarty but this does not put Benavides at the scene when the shooting occurred.

There is a four minute gap between Markham's observation of the murder and Bowley's arrival after which Benavides fumbled with the radio. During this interval Markham was observed by Cimino but Benavides was not.

None of this alters the fact that Benavides lied in his WC testimony.

[Bill Brown]

23 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Jean Paul, see the big building farthest left in the photo below on the north side of Patton on the corner of the alley? That's where Doris Holan lived, on the second story. Her window looked right out on Patton where she not only would have seen both the gunman and Callaway, but in her story she did. Acquila Clemons was located where "Markham" is marked below and also had line-of-sight to the gunman-Callaway waving/"(what's) go(ing) on!"shouting/opposite-directions interaction. That interaction of the gunman and Callaway can now be recognized to have three independent, distinct versions from two witnesses directly and a third, Holan, via Brownlow's retelling (hearsay). The three versions of the gunman/Callaway interaction are from Callaway himself (Warren Commission testimony), Acquila Clemons (a Mark Lane interview on Utube), and Doris Holan (via Brownlow's retelling). 

You can see in the photo below the erroneous marking of Doris Holan on 10th Street. As Myers brought out in 2020, although the Holan family did live there at one time, on Nov 22, 1963 they were not living there. Yet the Brownlow/Pulte story, and all stories of seeing a police cruiser in the driveway between 410 and 406 (Ron Bulman, heads up!), stem from that mistaken location of Mrs. Holan, on 10th St., instead of where she actually was, on Patton at the building which can be seen below. 

What happened was Brownlow and Pulte told the story of Doris Holan in terms of where they thought she was on 10th St. They had Doris Holan seeing a patrol car backing up in that driveway. When that story is considered in light of where Doris Holan actually was and her actual line of sight, the backing up of the patrol car (assuming the backing up of a patrol car in her story is from Doris Holan) can only be with reference to the alley itself. Not much difference between "driveway" and "alley" for Brownlow to get confused, especially if the patrol car Doris Holan saw "backing" in the alley had to have come from having been parked in one of the back yards or driveways adjoining the alley.

Bob Brown might comment on if he thinks the part of Doris Holan's story about seeing the gunman, and also seeing another figure loosely corresponding to Callaway, out her front window, never happened, especially the gunman. But if those elements of Doris Holan's story ring true (because they could hardly be otherwise, if she was at home that day at that hour, as Myers argues was the case), then it follows by extension that the part of the story about her seeing a patrol cruiser backing up could be credible too.

Certainly Doris Holan from her window on Patton could not physically see any car sandwiched between 410 and 406. Whether she could have seen a police cruiser parked behind 406 or 410, in a backyard or just off the alley--whether her line of sight view would be totally or only partially blocked of all of the area behind 410 or 406 is a little unclear from this photo. 

Note in deputy sheriff William Courson's version of his patrol car's movements that day he describes being part of "a race, my going backwards", on 10th Street, which is about as odd of a way to drive a patrol car on a public street as can be. That is why I think Courson is the identity of the driver of the patrol car Doris Holan saw backing up--the patrol car seen by Doris Holan first coming toward her, then stopping, then backing up moving away from Doris Holan, from her point of view from where she was seeing. It is parallel versions of the same thing, except Doris Holan saw the patrol car backing up away from her in the alley, whereas Courson says his odd racing his patrol car backwards occurred on 10th Street. I remember realizing with amazement reading Courson in Sneed that he was telling another version of Doris Holan's story and Myers' affair officer story but with some altered details. Courson's telling of reporting to duty in Oak Cliff wearing his yesterday's street clothing was the tipoff to me that he could be the unidentified officer of the affair at the scene of which Myers speaks at p. 374 of With Malice. I discerned that Courson--so missing in anything written or spoken by him of that day in reports both official and unofficial, except in his Sneed account, the only place in his life I can find where he spoke at all of his movements on Nov 22--was giving his account, with explanations of what witnesses may potentially have seen of his movements that day in a way more acceptable than that he got into a cruiser in the back of say 410 or 406 or wherever and wheeled away in a hurry after the shots that killed Tippit rather than stay to assist or report what he saw that day. 

The Myers 2020 blog piece on Doris Holan has more photos. 

 

 

 

 

 

Gary Doudna,

 

A number of things here.

 

First, Acquilla Clemons never makes any mention of the exchange between the two men as taking place three-fourths of the way down Patton toward Jefferson.  Again, you're changing the actual story to fit a narrative you're trying to push.  I notice you do this sort of thing a lot.

 

Second, Brownlow most definitely uses "driveway" (not alley).  To me, and knowing Brownlow, it is obvious that when they were concocting this hair-brained story, they said Holan told them the police car was in the driveway because they believed Holan actually lived on Tenth right across the street from the scene.  Had they known that Myers was going to show (years later) that Holan actually lived pretty much halfway down Patton, their story would have never included any mention of a driveway between the two houses on Tenth.

 

Third, Courson never says he backed up (drove in reverse) in the alley.  He said it was on Tenth Street.  Again, you're changing what he actually did say to fit your narrative.

 

Any conclusion reached as a result of your studies on these matters will be entirely invalid, since you change the story of the very sources you cite.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Michael Kalin]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:05 AM, Ron Bulman said:

A firsthand witness statement. 

Indeed, but what did he witness? Not Benavides' arrival, and this arrival time cannot be inferred from anything Bowley said.

His DPD affidavit states: "I stopped my car and got out to go to the scene. I looked at my watch and it said 1:10 pm."

There's nothing in the DPD affidavit about where he parked the car, but Bowley's HSCA interview report is explicit: "Bowley pulled his car to the right side of the roadway, about 100 yards from where the man was lying and got out on the driver's side and went to the man on the ground."

Interviews described in Into the Nightmare (p. 246) suggest that the distance from Tippit's body may have been less than 100 yards. Bowley put the location "several houses down," but his daughter placed it even closer, stating "we had pulled up just in front of the police cruiser."

However, Bowley's narrative in the next paragraph undermines the daughter's recollection: "...Tippit 'was laying there when I turned the corner, so he may have been there five minutes, for all I know. I didn't see him fall. People had already gathered, so some amount of time had elapsed. Now how much is anybody's guess -- a couple of minutes at least. And then it took me a little bit of time to walk up there.'" [Into the Nightmare, p. 246]

Surely sounds like he parked at least a few houses away. More than two puts him west of Patton and 100 yards starts to look realistic.

Upshot is Bowley's statements neither establish an early arrival time for Benavides nor preclude the later time described by Guinyard.

[Bill Brown]

6 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said:

Indeed, but what did he witness? Not Benavides' arrival, and this arrival time cannot be inferred from anything Bowley said.

His DPD affidavit states: "I stopped my car and got out to go to the scene. I looked at my watch and it said 1:10 pm."

There's nothing in the DPD affidavit about where he parked the car, but Bowley's HSCA interview report is explicit: "Bowley pulled his car to the right side of the roadway, about 100 yards from where the man was lying and got out on the driver's side and went to the man on the ground."

Interviews described in Into the Nightmare (p. 246) suggest that the distance from Tippit's body may have been less than 100 yards. Bowley put the location "several houses down," but his daughter placed it even closer, stating "we had pulled up just in front of the police cruiser."

However, Bowley's narrative in the next paragraph undermines the daughter's recollection: "...Tippit 'was laying there when I turned the corner, so he may have been there five minutes, for all I know. I didn't see him fall. People had already gathered, so some amount of time had elapsed. Now how much is anybody's guess -- a couple of minutes at least. And then it took me a little bit of time to walk up there.'" [Into the Nightmare, p. 246]

Surely sounds like he parked at least a few houses away. More than two puts him west of Patton and 100 yards starts to look realistic.

Upshot is Bowley's statements neither establish an early arrival time for Benavides nor preclude the later time described by Guinyard.

 

Surely sounds like he parked at least a few houses away. More than two puts him west of Patton and 100 yards starts to look realistic.

 

You have it a little backwards.  Bowley approached from the east (heading west).  He never would have been west of Patton at any point.  "Several houses down" would still have him on Tenth Street on the same block as Tippit's stopped patrol car.

 

[Michael Kalin]

42 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Surely sounds like he parked at least a few houses away. More than two puts him west of Patton and 100 yards starts to look realistic.

 

You have it a little backwards.  Bowley approached from the east (heading west).  He never would have been west of Patton at any point.  "Several houses down" would still have him on Tenth Street on the same block as Tippit's stopped patrol car.

 

There were exactly two houses between Tippit's body & the corner. The 100 yard distance described in Moriarty's HSCA report put Bowley in the 300 block of E. 10th. Nothing prevented him from proceeding through the intersection, consistent with his desire to protect his daughter from an ugly sight.

You lost track of the plot.