The Killing Floor

[Pat Speer]

49 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Shelley? Doubt it. 

Back to the other subject. You have the person who emerged from the west elevator on the 1st floor as avoiding Piper and exiting the west entrance. You also have this same person entering the west elevator on the 5th floor. You are suggesting this person had something do with the 6th floor at the time of the assassination. Is this your escape scenario?

It was Shelley alright.

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.
Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Once again, this was something Ball/Belin could have nailed down. But they didn't. And I suspect this was in part because they were afraid too much detail would destroy their predetermined conclusions Oswald never came down for lunch, and that he raced down from the sixth floor just after the shooting. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Tony Krome]

8 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

It was Shelley alright.

"The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about."

So you are saying that Sawyer asked to go to the 4th floor, and Shelley pointed out to Sawyer that the passenger elevator would take him to that floor?

[Pat Speer]

5 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

"The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about."

So you are saying that Sawyer asked to go to the 4th floor, and Shelley pointed out to Sawyer that the passenger elevator would take him to that floor?

There was obviously some confusion. Sawyer thought he went to the top floor. But it was the fourth floor. 

Now, it could be that he wanted to go to the sixth floor but was deliberately taken to the fourth floor by Shelley. That can't be ruled out. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Allen Lowe]

23 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

There was obviously some confusion. Sawyer thought he went to the top floor. But it was the fourth floor. 

Now, it could be that he wanted to go to the sixth floor but was deliberately taken to the fourth floor by Shelley. That can't be ruled out. 

this is something I noticed a while back. Baker was taken to the fifth and then the seventh floor when he came in the building, according to testimony. They clearly were trying to give somebody time on the six floor. I’m convinced that some of this crap was an inside job.

[Tony Krome]

33 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

There was obviously some confusion. Sawyer thought he went to the top floor. But it was the fourth floor. 

Now, it could be that he wanted to go to the sixth floor but was deliberately taken to the fourth floor by Shelley. That can't be ruled out. 

Theories can only work within timelines. So for practical purposes, lets say the last shot was fired at 12:30:00

Baker and Truly are seen near the TSBD front steps at 12:30:30

What time and where do you have Truly ordering Shelley to 1st floor passenger elevator?

[Bob Ness]

10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Great! Let's celebrate then....with some hot chicken from Gino's! We can even get it delivered---without using GrubHub too! And this ad is from March 1963! 😁....

 

Or....we can get some chicken sandwiches to celebrate our Red Letter Day. And look! No bones! (So let's not invite Bonnie Ray. He likes his sandwiches spiked with bones.) 😁 ....

 

 

Haha date then!

[Bob Ness]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Here's a higher-quality photo of the Dr. Pepper bottle on the floor:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339206/m1/1/

 

And how about an autopsy? I'll stop now...

[Roger Odisio]

3 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Roger,

I'm not sold on that.

Yes, she explicitly told Barry Ernest 40 years after the fact that she did not see Shelley and Lovelady, and she now claimed that she never did, but consider:

She did mark up in 1964 the extant transcript of her testimony in which she was quoted about seeing Shelley and Lovelady. I have great regard for Barry Ernest, but honestly, he should have made her explain the 1964 transcript, the one with her handwriting on it. If it wasn't her handwriting, he should have made her say so. He did not. 

After all, her testimony had been part of the public record since 1964, and she never once told anyone the Shelley/Lovelady sighting was a complete lie by the WC until four decades later. 

She thought the WC disbelieved her because of the Shelley/Lovelady bit. What she didn't realize was that they were going to discredit her no matter what she said. For decades she stewed over the Shelley/Lovelady thing, unaware it was a red herring. After forty years, she'd convinced herself she'd never said it. 

On that minor point I think she was mistaken, but it doesn't really make much difference: we all agree that the WC was desperate to discredit her by any means necessary because their "solution" was to pin it all on "Oswald". And Victoria Adams (and Sandra Styles, and Dorothy Garner) stood in their way. 

 

We know S+L were not back on the first floor until roughly 5 minutes after the shooting.  Adams was always consistent about her leaving the 4th floor quickly after the shooting and running down the stairs which would have gotten her on the first floor and out the back much before that.  In fact, the afternoon of the shooting she wrote out 6 pages of detail about what happened that day and mailed it to the editor of a Catholic newspaper she trusted in San Francisco.  That would have helped clear this up.  Surprise! it never reached him.  Surveillance of her was tight.  They knew how important to the survival of their fabrication she was.

Jim Leavelle showed up in Feb '64 at an apartment Adams had just moved to using a roommate's name  (surveillance again) to try to intimidate her, claiming all records had been burned and she needed to be reinterviewed  (a laughable claim).  He wrote in his report that she said she saw S&L upon reaching the first floor.  I believe that was the first time that lie appeared, probably a dry run for its inclusion in the WR or to set it up for later attribution.

When Ernest talked to Styles, he told her Adams' testimony said S+L were on the first floor when she and Adams arrived.  "I can't imagine why Vicki would say that, if she did" Styles said. S+L "definitely weren't there".

Claiming Adams said she and Styles saw S+L on the first floor was the only "evidence" the WR used to discredit Adams' story.  It was one of many lies the criminals running the "investigation" told.

Bottom line:  It's not possible to believe Adams account and also believe the WR claim she said she saw S+L when she got to the first floor.

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Theories can only work within timelines. So for practical purposes, lets say the last shot was fired at 12:30:00

Baker and Truly are seen near the TSBD front steps at 12:30:30

What time and where do you have Truly ordering Shelley to 1st floor passenger elevator?

Let's say Adams saw Shelley by the phone a minute and 10 after the shooting. Baker and Truly headed over a few seconds later. Truly yelled out to Shelley to guard the front elevator and yelled out to Piper to guard the back door. 

Incredibly, Ball/Belin asked Shelley if he saw Baker and Truly run into the building but never asked if he saw them in the building. I feel certain it was because they didn't want to cut into the little scenario they'd cooked up to discredit Adams. Amazingly, neither Shelley nor Lovelady were asked if they saw Baker and Truly run upstairs. But as I recall Lovelady told the HSCA he saw Baker and Truly run upstairs. Oops. 

Ok. So there's mucho speculation involved. But let's flip it around. If someone other than Shelley took Sawyer upstairs, well, then who was it? And why would Truly tell Shelley to guard the front elevator AFTER he'd come down from the roof, 6-7 minutes after the shots, when cops were flooding into the building? 

FWIW, I think it's more than a coincidence that Oswald is believed to have come down the front stairs two minutes after the shooting and that he said he talked to Bill Shelley, who'd told him there'd be no more work that day. The front stairs hit the first floor right by the elevator. It only makes sense then that he encountered Shelley as he exited the building, and that Shelley lied about it later. I mean, I think most people would lie if they'd told a co-worker it was okay to go home and then found out the co-worker was a murder suspect. "Wait, no, I never saw him!" Yeah, okay. 

 

 

 

[Tony Krome]

54 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Incredibly, Ball/Belin asked Shelley if he saw Baker and Truly run into the building but never asked if he saw them in the building.

Is this what you refer to;

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

I'm not clear on how Truly issues instructions to Shelley between the TSBD entrance and the rear stairs if Shelley is on the island.

[Pat Speer]

45 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Is this what you refer to;

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

I'm not clear on how Truly issues instructions to Shelley between the TSBD entrance and the rear stairs if Shelley is on the island.

He didn't. He ran into Shelley at the back of the building. it's clear that Baker and Truly didn't just race across the floor. There was a brief discussion at the front entrance on how to reach the roof, etc. I've been to the TSBD. I've walked around the building. It is totally feasible that Lovelady and Shelley who were walking at a brisk rate past the island as Baker ran up to the front stairs, would reach the back of the building before Baker and Truly reached the back stairs. I assume it all flew past in a number of seconds. Lovelady and Shelley walk in the side door headed for the phone. Five seconds later, Adams and Styles come down, and run out the back door. Five seconds after that Baker and Truly rush up to the elevators. Truly then looks around and sees Shelley and tells him to watch the front elevator. He sees Piper and tells him to watch the back door. Truly and Baker then run up the stairs. Thirty seconds later, the west elevator comes down containing God knows who. Ten seconds after that Jack Dougherty ambles over and takes the west elevator back up to the now-abandoned sixth floor, and then down to the now abandoned fifth floor. Five minutes later Baker and Truly come down on the east elevator and see Dougherty at work. Dougherty starts to realize something is odd. He then comes down and asks Piper what's going on and Piper tells them the President was shot, or that someone shot at the President. He then goes looking for Truly and sees him in his office. (Yes, in a 1970 interview, Dougherty said he saw Truly in his office after he, Dougherty, came down and talked to Piper. Well, hell, that doesn't make sense if this happened right after the shots. Truly was, at least officially, up on the roof when Dougherty came down.) 

In any event, this whole web demonstrates just how awful/corrupt Ball and Belin were. They didn't ask the key questions, at least not on the record. And when these questions were asked in subsequent interviews, the answers provided were not what Ball/Belin/Warren would have wanted on the record. Coincidence? I don't think so. 

To be clear, then, here are some of the many reasons to believe Shelley and Lovelady beat Baker and Truly to the back of the building. 

1. Baker said there were two white men standing near the elevators when he and Truly reached the back of the building. Outside something sinister, this could only be Shelley and Lovelady. 

2. When asked by an HSCA investigator what he saw when he came back in the building, Lovelady said that "One policeman (and) Mr. Truly had run up the steps...I guess they went up the steps when they couldn't get the freight elevator to go upstairs." Now Lovelady's no grammarian. He could have been relating something he didn't see even though he was asked to specify what he did see. He was then asked "What else did you see that went on at that time after the police came in?" He responded "At that time, after Mr. Truly and (the) officer ran up, there were more Secret Service and FBI, I guess it was, that came in." It seems likely, then, that he was saying he saw them run upstairs. 

3. Oswald said he spoke to Shelley as he exited the building. If Shelley was taking his sweet time over in the train yards, as in the scenario pushed by Ball/Belin, he would not have returned in time to speak to Oswald.

4. Vickie Adams said she raced downstairs after the shots. Her boss said she ran down the stairs before Baker and Truly ran up. That places her arrival on the first floor a few seconds before Baker and Truly's arrival at the elevators. And this suggests she would have crossed the floor within a few seconds of Shelley and Lovelady's crossing the floor to the phone. Well, by golly, she said she saw them. And not only that, she marked where she saw them--and it was right by the phone. 

 

There's a whole heap more, but I'm going to bed. 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jean Paul,

I believe that Ball's failure to ask Shelley about Dougherty's statement (about Shelley's alleged claim that "Oswald" brought a large package to work) was deliberate and very careful.

Many of us here suspect that Shelley played some role in setting up "Oswald" on at least some level. Ball may have been aware of similar suspicions and was not going there. Further, it is impossible that Dougherty made up that story out of the blue. It is highly likely that Shelley did indeed belatedly tell Dougherty about "Oswald's package".  (This is NOT to say that Shelley told Dougherty the truth.)

No. I think it is probable that Shelley lied to Dougherty to keep Dougherty in line, so to speak. If, as Pat Speer has demonstrated, at least one conspirator left the upper floors by way of the west freight elevator, while Dougherty really was on the first floor waiting to take an elevator up to go back to work, then it is almost certain that Jack Dougherty came face-to-face with an escaping assassin. 

Dougherty may or may not have been mildly retarded. But even so, he needed to be "reminded" of "Oswald's" guilt - and Shelley's belated remark to him would have been just the thing. 

But Ball didn't dare ask Shelley about "Oswald's" package because it never existed. "Oswald" did not enter the TSBD that morning with anything in his hands. Jack Dougherty himself said so!  No one saw him in the TSBD on that day or ever with anything resembling the infamous rifle bag. (Troy West explicitly denied that it was even theoretically possible for "Oswald" or anyone else to have constructed such a bag.)

If Ball had asked Shelley about Dougherty's statement, it is highly probable that Shelley would have perjured himself.

But Ball was stuck - he knew it wasn't true. And if he, Ball, took that testimony then he himself was guilty of suborning perjury, and risked disbarment!

Therefore Ball took the only out available to him - he did not ask Shelley about it. 

Thank you, I had not looked at this from that point of view, very interesting !  

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

He didn't. He ran into Shelley at the back of the building. it's clear that Baker and Truly didn't just race across the floor. There was a brief discussion at the front entrance on how to reach the roof, etc. I've been to the TSBD. I've walked around the building. It is totally feasible that Lovelady and Shelley who were walking at a brisk rate past the island as Baker ran up to the front stairs, would reach the back of the building before Baker and Truly reached the back stairs. I assume it all flew past in a number of seconds. Lovelady and Shelley walk in the side door headed for the phone. Five seconds later, Adams and Styles come down, and run out the back door. Five seconds after that Baker and Truly rush up to the elevators. Truly then looks around and sees Shelley and tells him to watch the front elevator. He sees Piper and tells him to watch the back door. Truly and Baker then run up the stairs. Thirty seconds later, the west elevator comes down containing God knows who. Ten seconds after that Jack Dougherty ambles over and takes the west elevator back up to the now-abandoned sixth floor, and then down to the now abandoned fifth floor. Five minutes later Baker and Truly come down on the east elevator and see Dougherty at work. Dougherty starts to realize something is odd. He then comes down and asks Piper what's going on and Piper tells them the President was shot, or that someone shot at the President. He then goes looking for Truly and sees him in his office. (Yes, in a 1970 interview, Dougherty said he saw Truly in his office after he, Dougherty, came down and talked to Piper. Well, hell, that doesn't make sense if this happened right after the shots. Truly was, at least officially, up on the roof when Dougherty came down.) 

In any event, this whole web demonstrates just how awful/corrupt Ball and Belin were. They didn't ask the key questions, at least not on the record. And when these questions were asked in subsequent interviews, the answers provided were not what Ball/Belin/Warren would have wanted on the record. Coincidence? I don't think so. 

To be clear, then, here are some of the many reasons to believe Shelley and Lovelady beat Baker and Truly to the back of the building. 

1. Baker said there were two white men standing near the elevators when he and Truly reached the back of the building. Outside something sinister, this could only be Shelley and Lovelady. 

2. When asked by an HSCA investigator what he saw when he came back in the building, Lovelady said that "One policeman (and) Mr. Truly had run up the steps...I guess they went up the steps when they couldn't get the freight elevator to go upstairs." Now Lovelady's no grammarian. He could have been relating something he didn't see even though he was asked to specify what he did see. He was then asked "What else did you see that went on at that time after the police came in?" He responded "At that time, after Mr. Truly and (the) officer ran up, there were more Secret Service and FBI, I guess it was, that came in." It seems likely, then, that he was saying he saw them run upstairs. 

3. Oswald said he spoke to Shelley as he exited the building. If Shelley was taking his sweet time over in the train yards, as in the scenario pushed by Ball/Belin, he would not have returned in time to speak to Oswald.

4. Vickie Adams said she raced downstairs after the shots. Her boss said she ran down the stairs before Baker and Truly ran up. That places her arrival on the first floor a few seconds before Baker and Truly's arrival at the elevators. And this suggests she would have crossed the floor within a few seconds of Shelley and Lovelady's crossing the floor to the phone. Well, by golly, she said she saw them. And not only that, she marked where she saw them--and it was right by the phone. 

 

There's a whole heap more, but I'm going to bed. 

 

 

This is the stuff why I'm here at this forum, thanks !

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The lunch sack was beneath the cart and can be seen in the Alyea film. 

I see, I was wrong in thinking he had left it unfinished/suddenly/not in the trashcan /on top of some box/on the window-sill/... something like that.

His first statement - not having been at the sixth floor at all - didn't help (affraid to admit he was there).   Somehow I mixed things up and got off on the wrong foot (or floor...) .

But the Williams part is very intriguing, I had to re-read it a number of times https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald  

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Tony Krome]

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Oswald said he spoke to Shelley as he exited the building.

What time do you have Oswald exiting the front door? I think the WC had the exit as 12:33 to make the bus/taxi thing work.