The Knoll Plainclothes Detective

[Gene Kelly]

The President is in a motorcade, with considerable protection ... what on earth is a SS agent doing nearby that's "off-duty"?   Sounds awfully fishy to me. 

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

The President is in a motorcade, with considerable protection ... what on earth is a SS agent doing nearby that's "off-duty"?   Sounds awfully fishy to me. 

Most SS agents have nothing to do with presidential protection. They work desk jobs dealing with counterfeiting etc. A visit of the President would be as unique to them as it would be to any other member of the public and so they would go join the crowds like anyone else to catch a glimpse of the President. 

What i'm proposing is that some of these off-duty SS agents then made their way to Dealey Plaza on hearing of an incident there and became some of the "mysterious" SS agents such as those encountered at the back of the TSBD by Harkness which was well after the assassination had taken place. Then when they realized the police had things covered, they left and never became part of the official record or testimonies etc as they had essentially done nothing and seen nothing in the short while they were at Dealey Plaza. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Gerry Down

[Ron Ege]

46 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Most SS agents have nothing to do with presidential protection. They work desk jobs dealing with counterfeiting etc. A visit of the President would be as unique to them as it would be to any other member of the public and so they would go join the crowds like anyone else to catch a glimpse of the President. 

What i'm proposing is that some of these off-duty SS agents then made their way to Dealey Plaza on hearing of an incident there and became some of the "mysterious" SS agents such as those encountered at the back of the TSBD by Harkness which was well after the assassination had taken place. Then when they realized the police had things covered, they left and never became part of the official record or testimonies etc as they had essentially done nothing and seen nothing in the short while they were at Dealey Plaza. 

Gerry, thanks.  I do see you point, but I see Gene's, also.  And thanks to Steve for his superb essay on the subject.

Assume some of these off-duty SS agents were, indeed, not part of presidential security.

It does seem odd that they would arbitrarily and independently determine that the other law enforcement agencies "had everything in hand" and then summarily leave the area, and not offer their ID and simultaneously, their assistance. 

Even if were to have only been as mundane as interviewing and recording the name, address, and telephone number of those who were still milling around Dealy Plaza after the shooting.  Surely, there were civilians who left the area before other agencies could get to all of them.  Seems any help, in that regard, would be better than no help. 

I find it suspicious that there is no official record of a list of names of SS agents, other than that of presidential security, assigned to the Dallas area.

Also, it seems odd that there is no record, anywhere, of at least one of these off-duty agents bothering to submit some sort of an "after action" report to their immediate boss, stating that they rushed to Dealy Plaza and offered help, but were turned away.

Such a report would've been basically saying, "Hey boss, even though it wasn't part of my job, just wanted to let you know that I did my best to aid our colleagues".

I rather believe that any SS agent, regardless of job title, would want to willingly insert himself into that day's picture, if not out of a sense of duty/dedication, then for nothing more than some subtle self-aggrandizement, illustrating his initiative and dedication to "all things SS", for its possible inclusion in his upcoming annual performance report, which is paramount for promotions/assignments.

And I would think there might have also been some sort of correspondence from the "Chief of the Dallas SS Counterfeit Division" to Chief Sorrels, saying, "Just so you know Forrest, my boys were on it", if nothing more than for FYI/FYE and interdivisional relationship building.

Imposter SS agents with forged credentials (heretofore much discussed and not without merit) certainly is more than a distinct possibility.  What better way to delay/divert/fend off authorities in pursuit of suspicious persons?

Steve opines that the library and back of the TSBD "agents" were imposters - most likely, I would guess, to deflect the investigation so as to enhance the ultimate success of the conspiracy. 

Steve, has it ever been determined what the exact number of "agents" were at those two locations?   If they were imposters, more than two each would seem to have been a bit of a hindrance to maintaining secrecy.

Legitimate agents?  More than frightening.  

 

  

 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

26 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Steve, has it ever been determined what the exact number of "agents" were at those two locations?   If they were imposters, more than two each would seem to have been a bit of a hindrance to maintaining secrecy.

 

Ron,

Not to my knowledge, and if they were, I never ran across it.

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

On 11/15/2022 at 7:00 PM, Paul Cummings said:

Sketch drawing based upon Summers description.

There is strong evidence that there was a Secret Service Agent present during Oswald’s first interrogation at a time when no known Secret Service Agent was in the Police Headquarters. If that is the case, who could this person have been?

Sims, Boyd, Fritz, Curry and Stevenson all testified, or wrote later, that a Secret Service man (who was not Sorrells) had been present during Oswald's interrogation.

I believe that a better candidate for the alleged Secret Service Agent who participated in Oswald’s first interrogation beginning at 2:20PM is Charles E. Kunkel.

 

hmmmm...

Steve Thomas

[Gerry Down]

Here is apparently the plainclothes detective on the triple underpass just like Holland said. And we can see he was up there during the shooting itself so he not involved in the assassination. And he has the hat on, increasing the likelihood this is the man Malcolm Summers later encountered at the picket fence. 

 

 

[Paul Cummings]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

Here is apparently the plainclothes detective on the triple underpass just like Holland said. And we can see he was up there during the shooting itself so he not involved in the assassination. And he has the hat on, increasing the likelihood this is the man Malcolm Summers later encountered at the picket fence. 

 

 

Doubtful based upon him running up and encountering someone right away. Where he's located not possible.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Gerry Down]

19 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Doubtful based upon him running up and encountering someone right away. Where he's located not possible.

We don't have an exact timeline of when Malcolm Summers got up off the grass and then made his way across the street. Plus the above photos were taken only as the limousine had just gone under the triple underpass. More than enough time for that man in a suit to run to the picket fence with Officer Foster and Sam Holland who also ran in that direction. 

[Paul Cummings]

7 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

We don't have an exact timeline of when Malcolm Summers got up off the grass and then made his way across the street. Plus the above photos were taken only as the limousine had just gone under the triple underpass. More than enough time for that man in a suit to run to the picket fence with Officer Foster and Sam Holland who also ran in that direction. 

Gerry, it's not like they waited minutes before crossing. Video showed people immediately heading to the picket fence.

[Gerry Down]

24 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Gerry, it's not like they waited minutes before crossing. Video showed people immediately heading to the picket fence.

Video which only started about a minute or two after the shots had been fired. There is no continuous footage taken from the time the shots were fired to when people began running up the grassy knoll. 

As a rough estimate, I would think Malcolm Summers and the plainclothes detective met at the picket fence perhaps 1 to 2 minutes after the shots had been fired. 

[Paul Cummings]

6 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Video which only started about a minute or two after the shots had been fired. There is no continuous footage taken from the time the shots were fired to when people began running up the grassy knoll. 

As a rough estimate, I would think Malcolm Summers and the plainclothes detective met at the picket fence perhaps 1 to 2 minutes after the shots had been fired. 

Eye witness accounts besides the video.

[Paul Cummings]

10 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Eye witness accounts besides the video.

Also why would he hold a gun under his coat and threatening to shoot people running up if he was on the overpass?

Edited November 18, 2022 by Paul Cummings

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Paul Cummings said:

Also why would he hold a gun under his coat and threatening to shoot people running up if he was on the overpass?

Cos it looks cool. Prob saw it in a James Bond movie 

[Gerry Down]

It appears Officer Haygood also spoke to the plainclothes detective whom he described as a "railroad detective":

Mr. HAYGOOD. And I left my motor on the street and ran to the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you ran to the railroad yard, would that be north or south of Elm?
Mr. HAYGOOD. The railroad yard would be located at the---it consists of going over Elm Street and back north of Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, there was nothing. There was quite a few people in the area, spectators, and at that time I went back to my motorcycle it was on the street--to the radio.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running away from there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No. They was all going to it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any people over there or not?
Mr. HAYGOOD. In the railroad yard, I talked to one of the people I presumed to be a railroad detective that was in the yard.
Mr. BELIN. Had he been in the yard before or not?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No. He was just coming into the area after I was.
Mr. BELIN. He was coming into the area after the shooting?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to you, that you remember?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Nothing that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I went back to my motorcycle, which was sitting on Elm Street.

Malcolm Summers must have followed up shortly after Officer Haygood and this is when Summers encountered the detective. 

[Ron Bulman]

On 11/15/2022 at 2:03 PM, Gerry Down said:

Arnold said he was moving toward the railroad bridge over the triple underpass to take movie film of the presidential motorcade when “this guy just walked towards me and said that I shouldn’t be up there.” Arnold challenged the man’s authority, he said, and the man “showed me a badge and said he was with the Secret Service and that he didn’t want anybody up there.” Arnold then retreated to the front of the picket fence high up on the knoll just to the west of the pergola on the north side of Elm Street

I thought the second part of Arnolds statement when first asked about the subject went like this.  After the confrontation behind the picket fence he went around in front of it and was filming or photographing the parade.  When shots came from over his shoulder he hit the ground.  When he got up the guy who told him to get out from behind it or another, with a gun (?) demanded his film/camera.  Which he gave up under protest.  Then left the scene without ever being questioned.  As an active soldier on leave he reported for duty in a day or two or few and was almost immediately sent over seas for a couple of years or so.  Not sure where I read this.  Maybe someone else has read a similar version?