David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[James DiEugenio]

As Jim Garrison once said, Nagell was the most important witness in the case.

Which is why, on the eve of the Shaw trial, they threw a hand grenade at him in New York.

Edited January 6, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[David Josephs]

Important for sure Jim... but on the credibility scale we have a little problem, no?

Like Bolden and Wilcott...  flew a bit too close to the sun and their wings just melted away.

[Benjamin Cole]

50 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I think you are asking about the chlorophyll when you gotta look at the trees in the forest.

...and why the CT side of this case is so overwhelming.  yet at the core Ben, it is simply not possible that each and every lead led to Oswald... each and every statement placing harm in Oswald's way has to be looked at as suspect since - surprise surprise - Oswald did not kill anyone that day.

So when Nagell talks about killing the patsy he is not implying Oswald's guilt in the killing whereas our 3 KGB men supporting Ozzie in Mexico (and btw - the Rave party arrest story was perpetuated for years and years after the fact especially by June Cobb) are directly implicating him... supporting the WCR's version as if what was learned in the years since was never even considered.

Would the three say L/9 was lying?

IMHO, my take is LHO was impersonated at the Cuban embassy.

The real LHO visited the Russian embassy. 

Regarding the provenance of Nagell's papers...my point is Nagell's (very bad) copy of LHO's phony ID could have come from copying Chief Curry's book, which had a picture of the phony Hidell-LHO ID in it. 

That is, we do not know when Nagell's phony ID was made. 

I suspect LHO was likely a patsy on Nov 22. I suspect a plot of CIA-affiliated people in the JFKA. My guess is LHO was an innocent participant in that plot---that is, LHO thought he was participating in a US intel false flag op. 

That's my story and I am sticking with it.

I am dubious about all things Nagell. 

 

[James DiEugenio]

BEN:

The ID card Nagell had could not have been from Curry's book.

Its a different picture of Oswald and there is no overstamp.

Anyone can see that by comparing the two photos.

This is what puzzled Mary Ferrell so much, and this is what she wrote about it. "How did he obtain it before it had the postmark (or whatever that stamp is) put on it."  (Russell, p xviii)

That is how deep into it with Oswald Nagell was.

[Benjamin Cole]

10 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

BEN:

The ID card Nagell had could not have been from Curry's book.

Its a different picture of Oswald and there is no overstamp.

Anyone can see that by comparing the two photos.

This is what puzzled Mary Ferrell so much, and this is what she wrote about it. "How did he obtain it before it had the postmark (or whatever that stamp is) put on it."  (Russell, p xviii)

That is how deep into it with Oswald Nagell was.

JD-

It has been decades since I looked at Nagell, and read Russell's book. I even traded some friendly e-mails with Russell. 

I do not now remember all the details. 

IMHO, Nagell is not necessary to constructing a truer picture of LHO, and Nagell is dubious. 

But, I will reconsider. 

[Benjamin Cole]

OK this gets a little far afield, but since we have waded in knee-deep, let's go into our hips. 

In 1986, Nagell sent Russell a copy of a Military Intelligence “Agent Report” dated May 2, 1969, which Nagell had obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The report, apparently written by a Special Agent Thomas J. Hench of the 766th Military Intelligence Department. Headed, “NAGELL, Richard Case,” the report states,

“During the period from August 1962 to October 1963, SUBJECT
[Nagell] was intermittently employed as an informant and/or investigator for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). In April 1963, SUBJECT conducted an inquiry concerning the marital status of Marina Oswald and her reported desire to return to the USSR. During July, August, September, and on one occasion prior to this, SUBJECT conducted an inquiry into the activities of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the allegation that he had established a Fair Play for Cuba
Committee in New Orleans, Louisiana. SUBJECT stated that while working for the CIA, HE had operated in Mexico, Florida, Louisiana, Texas, California, Puerto Rico, and New York. HE was primarily concerned with investigating activities of [a]nti-Castro organizations and their personnel in the United States and Mexico. On 20 September 1963, SUBJECT was arrested in El Paso, Texas on the
charge of entering a Federal bank with the intent to commit a felony. In May 1964 and September 1966, SUBJECT was twice tried and twice convicted on this charge. The conviction of the May 1964 trial had been subsequently reversed, thus the reason for the second trial. SUBJECT was sentenced to a maximum of ten
years imprisonment, but was released after four and one-half years. SUBJECT claimed that HIS conviction and subsequent incarceration was a result, not of HIS supposed intent to commit a felony, but rather as a result of HIS knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President Kennedy” (Russell, 54).

---30---

OK, I e-mailed Russell an asked him had he ever verified the authenticity of the Hench memo, which Nagell had represented as authentic to Russell. 

Russell said he had not. 

So, we have had many more disclosures since 1986.

I toss this out there: Has anyone seen the Hench memo, or something similar? Is there confirmation the Hench memo is authentic? 

Indeed, has there been much in recent disclosures regarding Nagell? 

[David Josephs]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

What?  No postal employee would have noticed the pretty young girl speaking Russian which they couldn't understand picking up a rifle from her husband's  P.O Box?  Seems to me there would have been a communication breakdown in the process . . . 

The last minute's kind of funky, but an appropriate video?

 

Rifle sent to PO Box = Non sequitur

 

[David Josephs]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

IMHO, my take is LHO was impersonated at the Cuban embassy.

The real LHO visited the Russian embassy. 

Opinions are wonderful places to start looking for supporting evidence so your opinion can move to a hypothesis and in turn be approached with some level of scientific process to prove or disprove....

Given your extensive research into the subject what brings you to that conclusion?

"added to the manifest after the trip"?  

[David Josephs]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I toss this out there: Has anyone seen the Hench memo, or something similar? Is there confirmation the Hench memo is authentic?

Of the 4 pages in the HENCH MEMO I only have 1 page thanks to John Armstrong's daily visits to the Archives and his copying a treasure trove of documents not offered anywhere else.  Maybe send this to Russell to close the loop?

How does this change your humble opinion?

[Sandy Larsen]

13 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

On 1/5/2023 at 6:10 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

The CIA created a Fake Conspiracy in which Oswald supposedly arranged with Cuba and Russia the killing of President Kennedy.

I am leery of deciding which evidence is fake or real to fit a favored narrative.

13 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I am leery of deciding which evidence is fake or real to fit a favored narrative.

 

ALL of the evidence I used to support my Fake Conspiracy theory is fake! None of it happened and everybody agrees to that. So all of it can be, and should be, accepted as something that needs to be explained.

Once you do that, you come to a conclusion close to what I described. Peter Dale Scott and others have come to similar conclusions. I'm not sure about Bill Simpich. I just wanted to show that it's not that difficult to grasp.

Once you get the basics down, then yes there some details that are hard to explain.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32341409.pdf

The internal CIA document, dated Nov. 23 1963, relates that LHO visited the Soviet Embassy MC on Sept. 28 and met KGB'er Kostikov (who was employed under diplomatic cover).

 

My Fake Conspiracy theory explains this. (As do the similar theories by Peter Dale Scott and others.) Recall that the Fake Conspiracy is a pretend story of Oswald arranging the killing of JFK with the Cubans and Russians. After the assassination, the U.S. investigators were supposed to find the evidence of this and believe that it really happened.

That CIA document you linked to is just a part of that fake evidence made to create the Fake Conspiracy. What's reported in it never happened. At least not by the real Oswald.

 

[David Josephs]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:10 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

If you guys carefully follow what I'm about to explain, and not blow me off as just some other guy with a theory, you're gonna find that Mexico City is pretty easy to understand.

First, you need to erase everything you've heard about Oswald going to MC to get a transit Visa to Cuba. This is nonsense pushed by the WC to support its lone gunman theory. And you need to accept that Oswald wasn't even there. After you understand MC, you can put Oswald back in the picture if you want. But really, you need to forget about him for now.

Now, look at all the evidence.... especially the evidence we know the CIA created. (Actually, the CIA created all the evidence, but at first we only know some of it was.)

Most of the evidence comes in the form of false statements made by CIA assets. (Elena Garro de Paz, June Cobb, Gilberto Alvarado, maybe others.) This fake evidence shows that Oswald drove to Mexico city with a skinny red-haired negro guy and another accomplice. (Remember, this is fake evidence. So the real Oswald did not really go there. Nobody did. It's a story that the CIA wants everyone to believe actually happened.)

While in Mexico City, Oswald hung out with Cuban Consulate employee Sylvia Duran and a bunch of her friends. They had parties together, and so forth. One day Oswald and his red-haired negro friend were at the Cuban Consulate and they were paid a $6500 up-front fee to kill Kennedy. So apparently Oswald and his associate were in MC to make that arrangement. (Remember, this is just a story.)

One day, Oswald called Valeriy Kostikov at the Soviet embassy. Kostikov was  known to the CIA as head of the KGB assassinations unit.

So now we know that Russia and Cuba were both involved in JFK assassination, and Lee Harvey Oswald was the lead guy for the American hit team. (The idea of a "hit team" is based on other evidence outside of MC. Just go with it for now.)

Now, let me summarize what I have just described. The CIA created a Fake Conspiracy in which Oswald supposedly arranged with Cuba and Russia the killing of President Kennedy. That is what the evidence shows.

Immediately after the assassinations, the FBI was supposed to discover this conspiracy. The were supposed to discover that Oswald had arranged for the killing of Kennedy, and that Cuba and Russia were the sponsors. This would serve as a pretext for war against communism.

As for the surveillance photos.... the CIA used them to implicate KGB accomplices to the Fake Conspiracy. For example, this one

Cuban consul Eusebio Azcue said that this was the guy who was at the Cuban Consulate (not Oswald). In the FBI's investigation, they weren't supposed to think that this guy was an Oswald impersonator! They were supposed to think that he was a KGB agent dealing with Oswald, arranging for the assassination! They were supposed to think he was this guy, Nikolai Leonov:

Recall that Duran and Azcue said that he was blond, short, and slender. There was another witness who said the guy wore his hair in a pompadour.

(BTW the above photo identified as Leonov was so sensitive that it was hidden from the Warren Commission.)

I have good evidence for everything I've said here. Though I might have made some minor mistakes because I'm writing from memory.

Now see.... wasn't that easy?

 

Very well done Sandy...

Let me add some icing...

AZCUE was also and intelligence agent whose job it was to identify potential double agent candidates and turn them against the US.  We know this from a AMMUG/1.  AZCUE would have welcomed Oswald as the disgruntled American and worked to turn him against the US and send him back with instructions...  since he would have been so eager to harm the US and help the communists...

But none of that happened.  AZCUE supposedly gets into some argument with the man and throws him out of the embassy/consulate...

AZCUE made no effort at all in that direction.   

AS Salandria put it... a False Mystery...

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/5/2023 at 6:30 AM, Ron Ege said:

Sandy,

Re this above: "As for the surveillance photos.... the CIA used them to implicate KGB accomplices to the Fake Conspiracy. For example, this one."

To my 80-year-old eyes, the profile photo under the verbiage above looks suspiciously just like Louie Steven Witt, The Umbrella Man. 

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=louie+steven+witt+-+photographs&fr=yfp-t-s&im

If so, I'd think that would be a pretty good "find".

 

Ron,

Here is the Mexico City surveillance photo in question that was sent to Dallas:

Cuban consul Eusebio Azcue said that this was the guy who was at the Cuban Consulate (not Oswald).

Someone wrote "Leon" right on the film below this picture. So this guy is someone the CIA knew and identified as Leon.

When the surveillance photos were sent to Dallas, a copy of this one was sequestered by Win Scott to be sent to J.C. King, both officials of the CIA. In the cover letter all Scott wrote was that it was a "certain person who is known to you." He wouldn't even say his name.

So this man was well known to high officials in the CIA.

The MC surveillance photos were all handed over to the Warren Commission. Not long after that, this special photo was withdrawn and hidden.

So this person is very important to the CIA and is known an "Leon." Researcher Bill Simpich has identified him as KGB agent Nikolai Leonov and I agree with him.

Leonov fits exactly the descriptions given by Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue as the so-called Oswald impersonator in the Cuban Consulate. And in my research, I discovered that this guy was targeted a number of times in CIA operations to paint him as communist revolutionary.

I therefore see no reason to wonder if the guy in surveillance photo is anyone other than this guy.

 

[Tom Gram]

15 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve

I find Steve's logic difficult to follow ... it's not clear cut.  Just because Marina wasn't questioned about this, doesn't make it possible.   I simply cannot envision her going to the PO box and retrieving the contents.  Plus, my perception is that Ruth Paine had her under intense scrutiny at this point. 

Gene

Gene

I’m not sure you’re really appreciating how insane and blatantly suspicious it is that Marina was not asked a single question about the post office box or the rifle order - but it’s way worse than that. 

Marina almost certainly did visit the Dallas post office at least once, the day she left Irving for New Orleans with Ruth Paine and filed her own change of address from P.O. Box 2915. That CoA form and every subsequent CoA form that could be traced back to it were buried, including a CoA in Oswald’s name that was the very first clue that Oswald had spent time in New Orleans after the assassination - which allowed the Postal Inspection Service to get a jump on the FBI before the FBI realized who they were dealing with. 

The WC had a report from Harry Holmes stating that Oswald claimed in his final interrogation that he lent Marina one of the two keys to the box on occasion to pick up the mail.

The WC also had the Walker note, which if it actually had anything to do with the Walker shooting implies that Oswald believed Marina didn’t know how to get to the Post Office as of the first week of April. 

The WC had zero evidence that Oswald actually picked up the rifle from the Post Office. 

So we have a provable case of disappearing evidence linking Marina to P.O. Box 2915, and the deliberate complete avoidance by the WC of a topic with Marina they had every imaginable reason to question her about in depth.

This thread’s on MC so I’ll stop there - but I recommend you read my essay if you’re curious at all about Marina and the Post Office. It needs an update/addendum, and I’ve changed my opinion on a few things since I wrote it - but you can read it in that google drive link or here: 

https://gregrparker.com/rethinking-oswalds-mail/

I only use the drive link because Greg’s pdf reader threw some of the formatting out of whack for some reason. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Sandy Larsen]

47 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Very well done Sandy...

 

Thanks David!