"Those Goddamned Kennedys Are Going to Destroy This Country Unless We Do Something About This"

[Gil Jesus]

Scene from the movie "Thriteen Days", an exchange between President Kennedy and Air Force Chief of Staff General Curtis LeMay.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Michael Griffith]

Well, far be it from me to defend Curtis LeMay (since I think he was a war criminal who should have been prosecuted for war crimes after WWII), but 13 Days presents a distorted portrayal of LeMay and the other Joint Chiefs. 

'Thirteen Days' is more a fantasy tale – Baltimore Sun

[James DiEugenio]

That scene is pretty accurate.

Lemay did say those things to Kennedy and he did say the Russians would likely not respond.😗

And Kennedy was very worried about killing civilians.  In fact one of the most telling exchanges came early when Taylor was describing what he called a careful air strike.  Kennedy kept asking him about the possibility of taking out civilians if the surgery was not precise.  When the number got into the thousands, Kennedy pretty much cleared that option off the table.

David Talbot and myself talked about this whole issue on Dave Emory's show last night.  That is, from the Bay of Pigs onward, Kennedy felt that he could not trust the formal channels of government to carry out his policy.  That recognition was furthered in the battle over Vietnam policy in November of 1961.  Right after that, JFK called a meeting on November 27, 1961.  He got there late and it was clear he was upset.  He said something like: When policy is decided, those on the spot comply or they get out. Once that was made clear, he then said: Now who is going to carry out my Vietnam policy?  McNamara raised his hand.  And Kennedy used Galbraith to get McNamara the precise message.

But after the Missile Crisis when he had to use RFK to directly negotiate with the Russians, he literally went off the shelf.

With the detente with Russia--Norman Cousins of Saturday Review.

With Castro--Howard, Attwood and Daniel.

When JFK was killed, Bobby used Walton to get the message across to the Kremlin that he and Jackie knew this was a domestic conspiracy and LBJ would not be able to continue the quest for detente, since he was too beholden to big business. But he would resign, run for office and then run for the presidency and they would continue the detente at that time.

Its not at all an exaggeration to say that RFK became a. kind of roaming ambassador for JFK by late 1962, 1963.  They were both shocked at the congressional meeting over the Missile Crisis.  This was when people like Fulbright and Russell expressed dismay over the blockade. RFK said words to the effect that it almost sounded like they wanted to impeach JFK.

One last point, the JCS if anything was worse than this.  In Newman's upcoming book on the subject he will reveal that the Chiefs knew about the missile installation before JFK did. They deliberately did not tell him because they wanted to place his back up against the wall.

In my view, if that info is correct, it comes pretty close to treason.  

[Gil Jesus]

48 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

That scene is pretty accurate.

Lemay did say those things to Kennedy and he did say the Russians would likely not respond.😗

And Kennedy was very worried about killing civilians.  In fact one of the most telling exchanges came early when Taylor was describing what he called a careful air strike.  Kennedy kept asking him about the possibility of taking out civilians if the surgery was not precise.  When the number got into the thousands, Kennedy pretty much cleared that option off the table.

David Talbot and myself talked about this whole issue on Dave Emory's show last night.  That is, from the Bay of Pigs onward, Kennedy felt that he could not trust the formal channels of government to carry out his policy.  That recognition was furthered in the battle over Vietnam policy in November of 1961.  Right after that, JFK called a meeting on November 27, 1961.  He got there late and it was clear he was upset.  He said something like: When policy is decided, those on the spot comply or they get out. Once that was made clear, he then said: Now who is going to carry out my Vietnam policy?  McNamara raised his hand.  And Kennedy used Galbraith to get McNamara the precise message.

But after the Missile Crisis when he had to use RFK to directly negotiate with the Russians, he literally went off the shelf.

With the detente with Russia--Norman Cousins of Saturday Review.

With Castro--Howard, Attwood and Daniel.

When JFK was killed, Bobby used Walton to get the message across to the Kremlin that he and Jackie knew this was a domestic conspiracy and LBJ would not be able to continue the quest for detente, since he was too beholden to big business. But he would resign, run for office and then run for the presidency and they would continue the detente at that time.

Its not at all an exaggeration to say that RFK became a. kind of roaming ambassador for JFK by late 1962, 1963.  They were both shocked at the congressional meeting over the Missile Crisis.  This was when people like Fulbright and Russell expressed dismay over the blockade. RFK said words to the effect that it almost sounded like they wanted to impeach JFK.

One last point, the JCS if anything was worse than this.  In Newman's upcoming book on the subject he will reveal that the Chiefs knew about the missile installation before JFK did. They deliberately did not tell him because they wanted to place his back up against the wall.

In my view, if that info is correct, it comes pretty close to treason.  

Jim, I think using citizens to take his messages and using his brother as a back channel, pretty much sums up the situation he was in: he couldn't trust anybody in the government to carry out his wishes. He was up against a "deep state" left over from Eisenhower and the monster that Ike created was far bigger and more powerful than any President.

Ike called it the "military-industrial complex", but IMO it was more of a Military/Industrial/Governmental complex.

[James DiEugenio]

I would agree with that Gil. Kennedy should not have kept the JCS and CIA intact once he came into office.

It is hard to overestimate the effect that the Bay of Pigs had on JFK.

Recall, about two weeks prior, he said in public that there would be no direct intervention by the USA in Cuba.  Yet that was the secret agenda that the CIA had in store for him.

When RFK reported back to him that this was what  they wanted him to do, then that was when he decided to decapitate the top level.  In fact, he wanted to go further and reorganize the whole agency, and if you can comprehend it, the plan for that is still redacted. He then got rid of Lemnitzer when he wanted to invade Cuba without any pretext.  Its interesting that JFK only had the one meeting with the JCS during the whole two weeks of the Missile Crisis. That should tell us something.  

So should this: RIchard Mahoney told Oliver that Kennedy had these really demeaning nicknames for the JCS members--except for Shoup--things that I cannot even really print here.  So the felling was mutual.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

That "unless we do something about this" is telling.  They did do something about it.  Who is the rest of "they"?

[James DiEugenio]

Ron,  that part of the dialogue is poetic license I think.

At least I do not recall that from what is the best transcription, The Kennedy Tapes.

[Joe Bauer]

One thing is for sure and beyond debate...

JFK was constantly fending off power and control competition from his top military, rival political agenda and intelligence agency people to do things their way versus his way.

 And these competitor groups were using classic Machiavellian methods to undermine JFK in their efforts to swing things their way.

JFK ( and RFK ) also had Hoover to contend with. As well as Hoover's like minded and highest political gain power obsessed brother LBJ..

Throw in JFK hating segregationist groups, "Big Oil", the Mafia and hot-headed Cubans exiles to boot.

Who was left who didn't hate JFK and RFK to murder wishing levels?

Guess just average and more honest and moral working class citizens.